How does the idea that most of Gods creation he will have to burn forever bring glory to God?

[The Righterzpen]

Universal is also merely an encompassing like term.

One can believe mankind is "universally" atoned for and still believe for example that devils are also "universally" condemned and not atoned for, which answers to your positions. You just left out that other party to the equations.

For the record many universalists do not believe there is Satanic salvation, but some, like the thread opening author do promote that.

I don't think it's feasible or necessary.

Interesting.

I see nowhere in Scripture where any atonement is ever provided for the angelic host.

Closest that I’ve ever seen is the phrase “elect angels” in 1 Timothy 5:21; but that says nothing about atonement related to angels.

Then we have Hebrews 2:16 which explains why there is no atonement for angels; because “For verily he (Christ) took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.” And this is why humanity is provided redemption but angels are not.

Also, personally I’m not a proponent of universal human atonement either.

Scripture speaks of the elect being the ones Christ died for. Those being predestined to election from the foundation of the world. None of us know who they are; other than we can know if we ourselves are elect. The only other thing that is stated about the elect is that they are represented of every kindred, tribe, tongue and nation.

As far as universal atonement goes though; the major question it raises is if no one is condemned then what anyone believes is irrelevant, thus the preaching of the gospel becomes a moot point. Also with universal atonement, no one is required to repent either. (Which isn’t supported by Scripture either.) “…. Repent and believe the gospel” (Mark 1:15)

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Interesting.

I see nowhere in Scripture where any atonement is ever provided for the angelic host.

A holy angel wouldn't need atonement. Not saying how many can dance on the head of a pin tho.

And then there are wicked angels/messengers. And I agree with you that these bad actors didn't get atonement. Also for the record these particular angels including the devil are never stated in the scriptures to be "holy." There were not at one time holy and then fell.

Also, personally I’m not a proponent of universal human atonement either.

So, you don't want your sins counted against you, but too bad for the other people? I believe that spells hypocrisy.

Scripture speaks of the elect being the ones Christ died for. Those being predestined to election from the foundation of the world. None of us know who they are; other than we can know if we ourselves are elect. The only other thing that is stated about the elect is that they are represented of every kindred, tribe, tongue and nation.

I appreciate your determinist stance, but if you're old school Calvin you technically don't even know if you're an elect til it happens. In other words determinism didn't fall far from the freewill reasonable assurance tree, because they don't know either.

As far as universal atonement goes though; the major question it raises is if no one is condemned then what anyone believes is irrelevant, thus the preaching of the gospel becomes a moot point. Also with universal atonement, no one is required to repent either. (Which isn’t supported by Scripture either.) “…. Repent and believe the gospel” (Mark 1:15)

That extension doesn't follow. There are numerous variations that can also address the above and not end up counting sins against people. Your position for example just automatically reverts to a "people sight only" position when Jesus showed us very clearly that devils occupy mankind. So did the Apostles.

So is everyone then saved? No. That attachment, their personal tempter package for every person will land in hell and there will be no adverse judgment to mankind for whatever beliefs they held. It all falls on the goats.

In any case the only thing that counts is faith working through love, Gal. 5:6, and I'd be hard pressed to say that there has been any human who has not, even in some slight way, loved, and as such know God and are born of God. 1 John 4:7

Christians would be better served to administer the benefit of the doubt for every person and understand we all bear the judgment of the devil and his messengers in our own sorry hides.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Only those with faith in our Lord snd SAVIOR are saved. After all, if all are saved then Jesus didn’t have to die on the cross.

Never said "all" are saved.

All people are saved by the Savior of the world who actually gets the job done. Some of us see in this present life, but ALL people will see, once divided away from this present imposed blindness of SATAN. Acts 26:18

The "whole world" is under captivity. We just see the difference between ourselves and our former blinder: 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2

That however didn't eliminate the tempter from the equations.

And all devils are damned and will end up in the LoF at the finale. Hooray.

In the meantime though the devils in believers try to "justify and hide" themselves in the equations. Don't they?

None of us will stand justified in the flesh, period. Before or after salvation.

We all have been defeated by sin, period. So badly that we can't even "tell the truth" about it. And in place of being truthful, we get lies and hypocrisy. False self justifications.

Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

In order to be a victor in God's World, we must in fact FALL in battle.

 

[Aaron112]

Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

i.e. they die physically , as martyrs.

Also, many are deceived and because of that are remaining in sin, sick and dying.

Also, churches help too often to deceived - i.e. Jesus says there are many false teachers and many false prophets and to those who become aware of the deception "COME OUT" ....

 

[Aaron112]

We all have been defeated by sin, period. So badly that we can't even "tell the truth" about it. And in place of being truthful, we get lies and hypocrisy. False self justifications.

except for those who do not remain in sin and darkness, even though they willingly and joyously give up their lives and never renounce Jesus nor sin sillily nor value their own lives to save them.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

i.e. they die physically , as martyrs.

Also, many are deceived and because of that are remaining in sin, sick and dying.

Also, churches help too often to deceived - i.e. Jesus says there are many false teachers and many false prophets and to those who become aware of the deception "COME OUT" ....

In order to come out, we recognize we are in fact IN.

We are "in" the world. We are "in" Babylon, the great.

Where the "harlot" sits is in people. Not just some. ALL.

Anyone who claims otherwise is merely under deception, trying vainly to justify or ignore the evil present within them.

Everyone who reads of the profitable servant compared to the unprofitable servant always and only thinks of themselves as the profitable servant, and NEVER the unprofitable servant. WHY is that, do you think?

 

[Aaron112]

In order to come out, we recognize we are in fact IN.

When Jesus approached someone, and said "Follow Me" , those persons might or might not have realized they were "in fact IN" (whatever you mean , no matter).

Be Becoming like a little child/ infant, "My children KNOW MY VOICE and follow ME - they will not follow another voice - rather run from it. "

Few if any in babylon (including babylon churches), "know" they are deceived . They have been told they are okay, all right, no worries, or some such... or "don't make waves".... ?

1 John chptrs 1 - 5 shows for little children how to know that they are in the light, now to know that they know the truth. Simple. Nor read by many. Not understood by most. Only by those Eternal Almighty Reveals to.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

except for those who do not remain in sin and darkness, even though they willingly and joyously give up their lives and never renounce Jesus nor sin sillily nor value their own lives to save them.

Everyone remains in sin in this present life.

There was only ONE who walked this earth, sinless. Only One. And even He, decided Himself to die in the flesh, like us. God in fact USED the devils in people to kill Him. They stood up to resist Him, and to kill Him.

They still stand up to RESIST Him. On cue. Look at all the so called believers who promote our neighbors to burn alive forever when God for no uncertain fact COMMANDED us to love them. How is it then that we ALL land in the exact opposite place of His Command???

You have to see past this evil at some point. That's what we're called to do. See ourselves PAST our own internal evil that promotes burning people alive. Can our faith be any sicker? I don't think so.

God always planned for their to be natural people, like Adam, planted in weakness, corruption and dishonor, to be raised In Him at our finale. To be "made" spirits apart from this present captivity of darkness. 1 Cor. 15:42-46

But for the devils in mankind, no, their fate is in fact already set up and they will fail at their end.

TWO are in the same bed.

TWO are in the same field.

TWO are grinding

The wheat and the tare grow from the same ground

All of these are pictures of "us" and our "adversary," the tempter who operates INTERNALLY.

Only ONE is moving on, and it's not the tempter or his own within anyone

Divide here and you'll be glad you FELL

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

The question is what does it mean to be condemned, there are multiple ways that people have tried to define what is meant by being condemned.
We as westerners do not think in a shame based society as those who wrote and the people who scripture was written to, in a shamed based way of looking at the world for someone to be condemned it is not the same way that we understand it, it not only affects you but your whole family sometimes for multiple generations, but it is not necessarily the same thing as when we think of being condemned.
Its like the Greek word apollumi which is translated destroyed, it does not mean to be no more or gone but it is that the object is no longer useful for what it was intended for, the example is the lost sheep that the shepherd went out to find was apollumi, same for the lost coin, the parodical son was apollumi, the old wineskin with new wine would be rendered apollumi, we read in the English destroyed and get a wrong idea that was never intended. maybe condemned is the same kind of thing.

My opinion.

You're not going to find answers to these questions.
All christians suffer with them.
If you start really digging into what you've been taught, you'll eventually just be cut/pasted verses into an endless circle of debate - which by the end, will leave you still feeling unsatisfied.
Sometimes, some creed, theology or belief will be restated over and over again.
It feels like a mantra on loop that you're supposed to believe without quite understanding. (Is that even a worthwhile belief??? Does chatgpt even know what it's saying??)
i think - perhaps, in the end, most of us just give up and let god deal with it. They somehow find satisfaction without knowing if they're right or not.

some questions i asked that helped me ...

Fear vs faith. Fear based religion vs revealed religion.
have i got a fear based religion?
So if god asked me "why do you love me?" and i say "because i'll goto hell if i dont, and i dont want to goto hell" - thats fear.
if i say "I saw a little bit of you and you're worthy of all my love, admiration and worship" - thats revealed.
revealed is better than fear. fear needs to be outgrown and left behind (it's not a high quality reason to do things).

salvation
christianity seems to be a salvation religion. it seems to profess to save you from something. from what??!!?? if jesus is a saviour - then whats he saving you from?
well that question only has two answers
1) Hell
2) god's wrath.
you're never going to satisfactorily harmonise god of love, goodness, truth and beauty with his dark side of hell, wrath, anger and fiery judgement. they dont go together.
there is only one way of making that work and it's to either make hell and wrath not as bad as people say, or, to make god's love and goodness not as loving or good as you'd hoped.
I think, i therefore abandoned the idea of christianity as a salvation religion.
I don't want to be saved - i have a different goal.

My goal is to know god so i can
1) be like him
2) give him intelligent worship. (thats why i'll never accept bible verse cut/pasting - it's not intelligent worship or understanding. it's just a parrot repeating stuff it heard that it doesnt understand).
3) try really hard to sincerely discover what god wants from me, and do it, and if required, abandon my own desires. I think, generally, what god wants from me is to learn what love is, and love whoever i'm given in my little circle. i think he also wants me to report back to him frequently.

So in summary ...
1)
distinguish between fear and faith. carrot and stick. positive and negative. running away from the bad thing vs running towards the good thing. fear religion runs away in fear from the bad thing. revealed religion isnt afraid of the bad thing - doesnt even care - courageously runs towards the good thing.
animal religion (bargaining with god, afraid of everything, sacrificing to appease) and revealed religion (sees something of god, loves it, decides - hell or not, that it is worthy and worships and loves it)
2)
seek to know more of god, so you can worship him more. pray, and love others

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

When Jesus approached someone, and said "Follow Me" , those persons might or might not have realized they were "in fact IN" (whatever you mean , no matter).

Be Becoming like a little child/ infant, "My children KNOW MY VOICE and follow ME - they will not follow another voice - rather run from it. "

Few if any in babylon (including babylon churches), "know" they are deceived . They have been told they are okay, all right, no worries, or some such... or "don't make waves".... ?

1 John chptrs 1 - 5 shows for little children how to know that they are in the light, now to know that they know the truth. Simple. Nor read by many. Not understood by most. Only by those Eternal Almighty Reveals to.

There are some very simple measures involved here.

IF we say we are only light, we're lying and hypocrites

IF we say we have no sin, present tense, have, we're lying hypocrites

IF we say we have no evil thoughts that defile us, we're lying hypocrites

It is so easy to see this, when we take it upon ourselves to tell the truth

And if we try to justify the entirety of ourselves, that is merely the tempter, lying like the devil he is

God is both friend and foe in these equations, both equally important

 

[Aaron112]

So much confusion, not from God. Not loving truth. Nothing can be done here about that, eh?

 

[Hentenza]

Never said "all" are saved.

Glad you are starting to figure it out. But you still need a lot of work and praying.

All people are saved by the Savior of the world who actually gets the job done. Some of us see in this present life, but ALL people will see, once divided away from this present imposed blindness of SATAN. Acts 26:18

Did you not read Acts 26:18? Where in the verse does it say that all people are saved?

“to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭26‬:‭18‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified b | New American Standard Bible - NASB (

to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified b

bible.com

How do they receive forgiveness of sins and are sanctified? What does it say ? I highlighted it for you. By faith in Christ.
Do you know what this means? No faith in Christ no forgiveness of sins and no sanctification. They are not saved.

The "whole world" is under captivity. We just see the difference between ourselves and our former blinder: 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2

Let’s look at your verse mining again. Let’s start with 2 Cor 4:4.

“And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they will not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭4‬:‭3‬-‭4‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they will not see the light of the gospe | New American Standard Bible

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they will not see the light of the gospe

bible.com

Did you read verse 3 to find out who is Paul talking about? Of course not. What caused those that ARE PERISHING to be blinded? Well? The veiled gospel of course. These people are perishing and will not listen to the gospel so God has blinded them to the gospel. These people will not hear the gospel, will not repent, and will not have faith in Jesus Christ. And what happens to those that don’t have faith in Jesus Christ? We read it in your previous mined verse. No faith in Christ no forgiveness of sins and no sanctification. They are NOT saved.

Now let’s look at Eph. 2:2.

“in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭2‬, ‭8‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

bible.com

Oh look, I also copied verse 8. Why? Because by the grace of God we have been saved through faith. Once again, no faith, no grace and no salvation.

That however didn't eliminate the tempter from the equations.

And all devils are damned and will end up in the LoF at the finale. Hooray.

In the meantime though the devils in believers try to "justify and hide" themselves in the equations. Don't they?

None of us will stand justified in the flesh, period. Before or after salvation.

Mmmm… let’s test this theory.

“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

bible.com

We have already been justified by faith.

We all have been defeated by sin, period. So badly that we can't even "tell the truth" about it. And in place of being truthful, we get lies and hypocrisy. False self justifications.

Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

In order to be a victor in God's World, we must in fact FALL in battle.

Jesus sacrifice on the cross cleaned the sins of those with faith.

“By this the love of God was revealed in us, that God has sent His only Son into the world so that we may live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭4‬:‭9‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

1 John 4:9-10 By this the love of God was revealed in us, that God has sent His only Son into the world so that we may live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son | New American Standard Bible - NAS

By this the love of God was revealed in us, that God has sent His only Son into the world so that we may live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son

bible.com

“All the prophets testify of Him, that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.””
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10‬:‭43‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Acts 10:43 All the prophets testify of Him, that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

All the prophets testify of Him, that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

bible.com

No battle needed. Christ fought it for us and won. Thank you Lord

 

[The Righterzpen]

A holy angel wouldn't need atonement. Not saying how many can dance on the head of a pin tho.

And then there are wicked angels/messengers. And I agree with you that these bad actors didn't get atonement. Also for the record these particular angels including the devil are never stated in the scriptures to be "holy." There were not at one time holy and then fell.

So, you don't want your sins counted against you, but too bad for the other people? I believe that spells hypocrisy.


I appreciate your determinist stance, but if you're old school Calvin you technically don't even know if you're an elect til it happens. In other words determinism didn't fall far from the freewill reasonable assurance tree, because they don't know either.

That extension doesn't follow. There are numerous variations that can also address the above and not end up counting sins against people. Your position for example just automatically reverts to a "people sight only" position when Jesus showed us very clearly that devils occupy mankind. So did the Apostles.

So is everyone then saved? No. That attachment, their personal tempter package for every person will land in hell and there will be no adverse judgment to mankind for whatever beliefs they held. It all falls on the goats.

In any case the only thing that counts is faith working through love, Gal. 5:6, and I'd be hard pressed to say that there has been any human who has not, even in some slight way, loved, and as such know God and are born of God. 1 John 4:7

Christians would be better served to administer the benefit of the doubt for every person and understand we all bear the judgment of the devil and his messengers in our own sorry hides.

You missed the

A holy angel wouldn't need atonement. Not saying how many can dance on the head of a pin tho.

And then there are wicked angels/messengers. And I agree with you that these bad actors didn't get atonement. Also for the record these particular angels including the devil are never stated in the scriptures to be "holy." There were not at one time holy and then fell.

So, you don't want your sins counted against you, but too bad for the other people? I believe that spells hypocrisy.


I appreciate your determinist stance, but if you're old school Calvin you technically don't even know if you're an elect til it happens. In other words determinism didn't fall far from the freewill reasonable assurance tree, because they don't know either.

That extension doesn't follow. There are numerous variations that can also address the above and not end up counting sins against people. Your position for example just automatically reverts to a "people sight only" position when Jesus showed us very clearly that devils occupy mankind. So did the Apostles.

So is everyone then saved? No. That attachment, their personal tempter package for every person will land in hell and there will be no adverse judgment to mankind for whatever beliefs they held. It all falls on the goats.

In any case the only thing that counts is faith working through love, Gal. 5:6, and I'd be hard pressed to say that there has been any human who has not, even in some slight way, loved, and as such know God and are born of God. 1 John 4:7

Christians would be better served to administer the benefit of the doubt for every person and understand we all bear the judgment of the devil and his messengers in our own sorry hides.

You missed the point about the legal issue concerning universal atonement regarding God’s justice.

The redemption of any given human; rests on whether Christ paid for their sin.

If Christ paid for all of every single human’s sin; then God holds no standing to condemn anyone. All are pardoned regardless. Because if Christ paid the sin of someone who ends up condemned in the end; then two people have paid for the sin of one and even human law, that’s not considered just.

Then from the framework of the adequacy of Christ’s atonement; at least a portion of it was in vain, and Christ is a liar; seeing how he said “All the Father gives unto me will come and I shall raise them up on the last day.” (John 6:39-44)

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Did you not read Acts 26:18? Where in the verse does it say that all people are saved?

Do you believe Jesus gets the job done or not? People are not their own saviors.

How do they receive forgiveness of sins and are sanctified? What does it say ? I highlighted it for you. By faith in Christ.
Do you know what this means? No faith in Christ no forgiveness of sins and no sanctification. They are not saved.

Obviously in your world it's some concocted formulas of some sort that people must perform in order to save themselves. I liken such approaches to "magic."

1 John 4:7 keeps it much simpler and far easier than your claims: Anyone who loves knows God and is born of God. End of magic formulas.

Did you read verse 3 to find out who is Paul talking about? Of course not. What caused those that ARE PERISHING to be blinded? Well? The veiled gospel of course. These people are perishing and will not listen to the gospel so God has blinded them to the gospel.

You did read that it is the "god" of this world who blinds minds? Not big G God. That's what makes people "captives." There's a CAPTOR. The devil.

Did Jesus come to set captives free? Does He succeed? Go ahead and present the failure. I know better.

Mmmm… let’s test this theory.

“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

You still haven't figured out yet that you is not just you.

We are all subject to internal temptations of the tempter. Where then does that place the tempter? Sitting on a telephone pole outside your bedroom window? We all have an evil conscience, Heb. 10:22

God made an enemy for us to battle. That enemy is unseen. The battle ground is internal

Hint: It's not our neighbors

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

You missed the point about the legal issue concerning universal atonement regarding God’s justice.

The redemption of any given human; rests on whether Christ paid for their sin.

Christ died for all people. And for us while we were not even born yet and even when we remained blinded enemies of the Gospel, blinded captive slaves of the devil.

So, yes, universal atonement for mankind. No universal atonement for devils.

In case you're missing the picture we all have temptations of the tempter that transpire "internally." So it's never a question of just the person to begin with. Common mistaken sight. Fleshly eyes only believe what they can see, but our very real enemies are unseen.

Romans 11:32

For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Doesn't sound like limited people atonement to me^^^ All bound. All receive Mercy.

1 Timothy 2:6

Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Most don't get the picture currently. They'll all get it at some point, even post death.

If Christ paid for all of every single human’s sin; then God holds no standing to condemn anyone

God in Christ definitely condemns DEVILS in mankind, beyond any doubt. That's the part that continues to slip by your positions. People are not just people. It's the person and their captor, the devil, the tempter.

The only difference is we are supposed to SEE our condition. Seeing it didn't make us "sinless."

Then from the framework of the adequacy of Christ’s atonement; at least a portion of it was in vain, and Christ is a liar; seeing how he said “All the Father gives unto me will come and I shall raise them up on the last day.”

And the Father has given Jesus all people.

Look, even enemies of the Gospel are saved after death. Romans 11:26-32. They could not see in this present life because of the spirit of slumber put upon them. Romans 11:8

We all have One Father, Matt. 23:9

These are like, you know, basic Sunday school lessons.

 

[The Righterzpen]

God in Christ definitely condemns DEVILS in mankind, beyond any doubt. That's the part that continues to slip by your positions. People are not just people. It's the person and their captor, the devil, the tempter.

But if the demon is condemned and the person is atoned for; how do any humans end up in hell?

Christ died for all people. And for us while we were not even born yet and even when we remained blinded enemies of the Gospel, blinded captive slaves of the devil.

Romans 9:21-23
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Doesn't sound like limited people atonement to me^^^ All bound. All receive Mercy.

1 Timothy 2:6

Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Most don't get the picture currently. They'll all get it at some point, even post death.

The context of both these verses is concerning descendants of Jacob; as opposed to all the rest of the nations. Thus what "he gave himself a ransom for all" means.

Revelation 5:9
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

And the Father has given Jesus all people.

I know this is the position you are arguing from; so please explain how some end up in hell then? If all humanity's sin is paid for; how are there humans in hell? How are those that worship the beast, cast into the Lake of Fire?

For example; the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Why would Christ and the prophets / apostles warn people to repent if ultimately everyone is atoned for?

2 Thessalonians 1:
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

But if the demon is condemned and the person is atoned for; how do any humans end up in hell?

They don't. IF you read the Bible you won't find a single named person ever stated to be in hell or the LoF now or in the future. Such a thing is not even in writing to begin with. There is not even a single named person even threatened with such a fate.

But Jesus could look any of us in the face, condemn us to the fire, and that condemnation is for the tempter. Just as Jesus addressed Satan speaking from Peter's lips or any other of the thousands of examples of Jesus engaging devils in mankind.

Fact is, that's been going on since day 1 of mankind. God is not just interacting with people only. There are these powers and agents in play:

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

That wickedness is built directly into us all. We all got our little piece of the dark pie the moment we hit the earth. It's also why we're all sinners, because these matters are not about "just people" at all. There are other things going on that are being played out in real life, real time. Most often unseen.

The context of both these verses is concerning descendants of Jacob; as opposed to all the rest of the nations. Thus what "he gave himself a ransom for all" means.

Every Word of God applies to us all. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3

God bound us all to disobedience, Jew and Gentile alike. Blinded by the god of this world. Mark 4:15, Romans 3:9, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, 1 John 3:8

For example; the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

It's a parable ^^^

In order to understand "all parables" we have to go to Jesus for the answer, in Mark 4:13

In that parable we are to understand all parables. There are 3 parties in that parable. God, mankind and devils.

In the parable of Mark 4, we have God's Word obviously, people and Satan.

IF any of these 3 parties are missing from the narrative, then the understanding is void.

In Luke 16 we have essentially a "rich man" eating up all the goods and Lazarus, a poor beggar.

Do the math from there. The rich man is without a name for a reason. That rich man was the internal thief of Lazarus, our adversary.

Jer. 5:
26 For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men.
27 As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich.
28 They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge.

Hosea 5:4
They will not frame their doings to turn unto their God: for the spirit of whoredoms is in the midst of them, and they have not known the Lord.

 

[The Righterzpen]

They don't. IF you read the Bible you won't find a single named person ever stated to be in hell or the LoF now or in the future. Such a thing is not even in writing to begin with. There is not even a single named person even threatened with such a fate.

But Jesus could look any of us in the face, condemn us to the fire, and that condemnation is for the tempter. Just as Jesus addressed Satan speaking from Peter's lips or any other of the thousands of examples of Jesus engaging devils in mankind.

Fact is, that's been going on since day 1 of mankind. God is not just interacting with people only. There are these powers and agents in play:

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

That wickedness is built directly into us all. We all got our little piece of the dark pie the moment we hit the earth. It's also why we're all sinners, because these matters are not about "just people" at all. There are other things going on that are being played out in real life, real time. Most often unseen.


Every Word of God applies to us all. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3

God bound us all to disobedience, Jew and Gentile alike. Blinded by the god of this world. Mark 4:15, Romans 3:9, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, 1 John 3:8

It's a parable ^^^

In order to understand "all parables" we have to go to Jesus for the answer, in Mark 4:13

In that parable we are to understand all parables. There are 3 parties in that parable. God, mankind and devils.

In the parable of Mark 4, we have God's Word obviously, people and Satan.

IF any of these 3 parties are missing from the narrative, then the understanding is void.

In Luke 16 we have essentially a "rich man" eating up all the goods and Lazarus, a poor beggar.

Do the math from there. The rich man is without a name for a reason. That rich man was the internal thief of Lazarus, our adversary.

Jer. 5:
26 For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men.
27 As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich.
28 They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge.

Hosea 5:4
They will not frame their doings to turn unto their God: for the spirit of whoredoms is in the midst of them, and they have not known the Lord.

Why would Jesus tell a parable that is in essence "a lie"? Why would all these other Scriptures (one's you've even quoted here); in essence be telling lies?

And why do you even try and convince me; because according to your belief; I got a ticket in. I'm human. I'm atoned for!

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Why would Jesus tell a parable that is in essence "a lie"?

What lie?

Why would all these other Scriptures (one's you've even quoted here); in essence be telling lies?

May not fit the lies you've been taught more likely

And why do you even try and convince me; because according to your belief; I got a ticket in. I'm human. I'm atoned for!

Never said that either. Not all of you is just you.

We all are engaged with the tempter and his own, internally. This is the essence of the observation

 

[The Righterzpen]

What lie?

If God can not lie; why would Jesus tell a parable that is fundamentally untrue; seeing how his parable conveys the human rich man in hell?

If no human ever goes to hell, then this parable is fundamentally untrue; therefore it’s a lie. Thus, either Jesus is lying, or your doctrine is false.

Never said that either. Not all of you is just you.

We all are engaged with the tempter and his own, internally. This is the essence of the observation

Well, according to your belief here; the part of me that is “just me” is atoned for; so, what else is there to convince me of? Any thing else is irrelevant.