What is "true" Islam?

[ebia]

Which are false/ misleading - because the first statement is certainly true (Mohammed had 16 wives, 2 concubines and another dozen 'uncertain' relationships...)

And Abraham had how many? Let alone David.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

The history of Islam has been conversion by the sword and peodophilia. Mohammed had I don't know how many wives, one of whom was a nine year old.

Most of the time the only way he could get people to embrace islam was by the sword. Convert or die.

Both these have never changed. Over the last 12 months I have read half a dozen books about Islam written by ex muslims and the truths revealed about the way women and children are treated is horrendous.

Islam is a religion for men to abuse others and as that is the tradition perpetrated by men for men, next to no one complains about the fact.

The Koran says it is OK to lie to the infidels if it means putting one over them. The Koran says it is OK to kill the infidels if they stand in the way of an Islamic caliphate or if they refuse to convert to Islam.

The death penalty is standard for anyone who leaves Islam and joins another religion because in doing so they are dishonouring their family.

That's a pretty good summary of the history of Christianity until not so very long ago.

Not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslims.

No. I have already posted how that is not true.

Muslims of all persuasions have the avowed intention of establishing islam as the only true religion. Every new mosque that is built it is another step to taking over that country according to them.

And Christians differ how?

Terrorist acts by individuals have nothing to do with islam according to muslims when nearly all terrorists attacks are the product of islam.

Again, that is not true. Please, spend some time researching these things before making such baseless, ill-educated claims.

So what is true islam? It speaks for itself.

It's not what you are portraying it as.

Let me guess - you are reacting to Man Haron Monis. The Australian media should be seriously censured for their portrayal of that event.

 

[Lotuspetal_uk]

This is a pretty shocking article:

ISIS Say Only a Matter of Time Before Europe Is Conquered; Plan 'Largest Religious Cleansing Campaign' in History

Not shocking, not even surprising - just another nutjob talking out of his donkey.

This group has tapped into the propaganda gravy train and they use it well.

 

[ianb321red]

That's a pretty good summary of the history of Christianity until not so very long ago. .

I think your comparison is a false one - do you have any examples of people who have been murdered for Christian apostasy?

This is slightly a trick question, because if you can find any examples then I will obviously reply that these people were not Christians to commit such acts - simply because there is no such instruction or teaching in the bible (which is obvious given the 6th commandment)...

By contrast it is a well known and little disputed fact that apostasy from Islam is a crime punishable by the death penalty....you may be able to find a very small minority of Muslim scholars that may argue that the death penalty is an inappropriate punishment, but the overwhelming majority will argue that apostasy is a religious crime and that the penalty of death is well supported in both the hadith and quran.....

 

[ianb321red]

And Christians differ how?

Islam is a territorial religion - it's growth is based on literal geographical occupancy hence Islamic countries/ states, and thus Islam is a religion of law and shapes societies politically...

Christianity as a religion does not further itself on the basis of territorial occupancy. It is a religion of love and it shapes and transforms societies through individuals engaging within that society, and thus has no need for earthly physical territory...

 

[ebia]

Christianity as a religion does not further itself on the basis of territorial occupancy.

Except it was doing that for longer than islam has existed.

 

[ebia]

I think your comparison is a false one - do you have any examples of people who have been murdered for Christian apostasy?

This is slightly a trick question, because if you can find any examples then I will obviously reply that these people were not Christians to commit such acts - simply because there is no such instruction or teaching in the bible (which is obvious given the 6th commandment)...

By contrast it is a well known and little disputed fact that apostasy from Islam is a crime punishable by the death penalty....you may be able to find a very small minority of Muslim scholars that may argue that the death penalty is an inappropriate punishment, but the overwhelming majority will argue that apostasy is a religious crime and that the penalty of death is well supported in both the hadith and quran.....

Sugar or salt on your breakfast?

 

[Episaw]

That's a pretty good summary of the history of Christianity until not so very long ago.

No. I have already posted how that is not true.

And Christians differ how?

Again, that is not true. Please, spend some time researching these things before making such baseless, ill-educated claims.

It's not what you are portraying it as.

Let me guess - you are reacting to Man Haron Monis. The Australian media should be seriously censured for their portrayal of that event.

Sorry to say I don't look for information that is true from an agnostic. I prefer information from people that are on the ground and have been there done that.

My knowledge of islam was gained long before Monis came on the scene like a book I read recently written by two Iranian christian woman who were jailed for nearly a year without charge because they gave a bible to a friend. When they were released thanks to christians praying for them on a daily basis, they still hadn't been charged.

The treatment that women of any kind received in that jail was barbaric, disgusting and cruel. One woman was hanged because she was raped, but I guess you will deny such things happen.

I realise by your comments that you are one of Islam's dhimmis, you may even be a muslim yourself but like most topics, I do not formulate my understanding of it by listening to the opinions of people who are obviously not experts on it and have no experience of the reality of it.

I will repeat that not all muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are muslims and until you can produce evidence to the contrary, I will stand by what I said.

 

[ebia]

Sorry to say I don't look for information that is true from an agnostic. I prefer information from people that are on the ground and have been there done that.

My knowledge of islam was gained long before Monis came on the scene like a book I read recently written by two Iranian christian woman who were jailed for nearly a year without charge because they gave a bible to a friend. When they were released thanks to christians praying for them on a daily basis, they still hadn't been charged.

The treatment that women of any kind received in that jail was barbaric, disgusting and cruel. One woman was hanged because she was raped, but I guess you will deny such things happen.

I doubt anyone here would deny that the Iranian government is pretty awful. So are many governments around the world. So we many western governments until relatively recently, executing people over religious disagreements, etc. The treatment you would receive in prison in most countries around the world is horrific by western sensibilities; I'd hate to end up in prison in, say, PNG.

I will repeat that not all muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are muslims and until you can produce evidence to the contrary, I will stand by what I said.

He has. He pointed out to you terrorists who are not muslims.

 

[Episaw]

I doubt anyone here would deny that the Iranian government is pretty awful. So are many governments around the world. So we many western governments until relatively recently, executing people over religious disagreements, etc. The treatment you would receive in prison in most countries around the world is horrific by western sensibilities; I'd hate to end up in prison in, say, PNG.

He has. He pointed out to you terrorists who are not muslims.

Has he? He stated up to 2005. We don't live in 2005. We live in 2014 and the world is a different place these days. The list of proscribed organisations from the USA is more indicative of what is happening.

Tell me, how many non islamic terrorists have you heard about this year who have conducted mayhem against others?

 

[ebia]

Has he? He stated up to 2005. We don't live in 2005. We live in 2014 and the world is a different place these days. The list of proscribed organisations from the USA is more indicative of what is happening.

Tell me, how many non islamic terrorists have you heard about this year who have conducted mayhem against others?

Let's be clear; one only need provide a single case to disprove your assertion.

Are you seriously that there is not a single non-muslim terrorist left in the world?

The world is not that different. The other stuff hasn't gone away. It's just drowned out by a media over-focus on the events in the Middle East.

 

[ianb321red]

Except it was doing that for longer than islam has existed.

I said "does not further" - as in describing what is happening in the modern era

 

[ianb321red]

Tell me, how many non islamic terrorists have you heard about this year who have conducted mayhem against others?

Maoist Militants are one example according to this list, Séléka are another:

List of terrorist incidents, 2014 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Granted the vast majority are Islamic however....

 

[ebia]

I said "does not further" - as in describing what is happening in the modern era

But it did for much of history. And that's how it got most of the territory it holds. Where as most of the Islamic world was converted to Islam though traders and missions. (Remembering mist of Islam is east, not west, of Arabia, though the indes and Indo-China).

How do you justify reading this particular moment as the defining one?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Sorry to say I don't look for information that is true from an agnostic. I prefer information from people that are on the ground and have been there done that.

And that would be you, would it? Please provide examples of you having "been there done that" so we all know what makes you so much better informed than me. And while you're at it, please provide a detailed synopsis of my life so we can all see that I have not "been there done that."

My knowledge of islam was gained long before Monis came on the scene like a book I read recently written by two Iranian christian woman who were jailed for nearly a year without charge because they gave a bible to a friend. When they were released thanks to christians praying for them on a daily basis, they still hadn't been charged.

You read a book about 2 women in prison? Wow, you must really know Islam inside out!

The treatment that women of any kind received in that jail was barbaric, disgusting and cruel. One woman was hanged because she was raped, but I guess you will deny such things happen.

Why would I deny it?

I realise by your comments that you are one of Islam's dhimmis, you may even be a muslim yourself but like most topics, I do not formulate my understanding of it by listening to the opinions of people who are obviously not experts on it and have no experience of the reality of it.

lol! If I were a dhimmi, or a muslim, I would have exceptional experience of Islam and therefore be in a far more knowledgeable position than you

I will repeat that not all muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are muslims and until you can produce evidence to the contrary, I will stand by what I said.

I see others have already posted further evidence. Will be nice to see you retract the claim.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

I think your comparison is a false one - do you have any examples of people who have been murdered for Christian apostasy?

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition

This is slightly a trick question, because if you can find any examples then I will obviously reply that these people were not Christians to commit such acts - simply because there is no such instruction or teaching in the bible (which is obvious given the 6th commandment)...

Don't you just hate it when the bible doesn't just contradict you but takes it one step further? God tells you not just to kill the apostate, but also to burn down his city, kill his livestock and plunder his wealth!

Deuteronomy 13:
"1 If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.

6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you.

12 “If you hear someone in one of your cities, which the Lord your God gives you to dwell in, saying, 13 ‘Corrupt men have gone out from among you and enticed the inhabitants of their city, saying, “Let us go and serve other gods”’—which you have not known— 14 then you shall inquire, search out, and ask diligently. And if it is indeed true and certain that such an abomination was committed among you, 15 you shall surely strike the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying it, all that is in it and its livestock—with the edge of the sword. 16 And you shall gather all its plunder into the middle of the street, and completely burn with fire the city and all its plunder, for the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever; it shall not be built again. 17 So none of the accursed things shall remain in your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of His anger and show you mercy, have compassion on you and multiply you, just as He swore to your fathers, 18 because you have listened to the voice of the Lord your God, to keep all His commandments which I command you today, to do what is right in the eyes of the Lord your God."

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Tell me, how many non islamic terrorists have you heard about this year who have conducted mayhem against others?

Sorry, but I'm going to include terrorists who may be muslims but acted for non-religious reasons (eg fighting for political independence). And the answer is........ 42.

 

[ianb321red]

Don't you just hate it when the bible doesn't just contradict you but takes it one step further? God tells you not just to kill the apostate, but also to burn down his city, kill his livestock and plunder his wealth!

Deuteronomy 13: etc etc

I repeat my question - do you have any examples of people who have been murdered for Christian apostasy?

To put the question more clearly - do you have any examples of Deuteronomy 13:6-10 being enforced?

Consider what Paul says in Romans 10:4 - about Christ being the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Christians are not bound by the OT/ Mosaic laws which is why you won't find this instruction applied to Christian apostasy. I do not know however what the Jewish response or explanation would be in this issue however.;.

And you've referred to the Spanish Inquisition in your post - but exactly what commandment and/or teaching of Jesus Christ can be shown to influence or support what happened this inquisition?

Making a comparision between Christianity and Islam requires a focal point so really you need to bring in the 2 central figures to each religion - Jesus and Mohammad - and look at the influence they had on this subject from what they said, taught, their behaviour and so on

 

[Bungle_Bear]

I repeat my question - do you have any examples of people who have been murdered for Christian apostasy?

Do I need to provide another reference to the Spanish Inquisition? Maybe you'd prefer this instead?

To put the question more clearly - do you have any examples of Deuteronomy 13:6-10 being enforced?

No, but I suspect I could find some. I've given 2 references to people being killed for Christian apostasy as originally requested. You may not move the goalposts now.

Consider what Paul says in Romans 10:4 - about Christ being the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Consider what Jesus says in Matthew 5:19. Jesus trumps Paul

Christians are not bound by the OT/ Mosaic laws which is why you won't find this instruction applied to Christian apostasy. I do not know however what the Jewish response or explanation would be in this issue however.;.

We have Jesus saying you are bound by the OT laws. We then have Paul saying perhaps you are not. But Paul later says if you keep one OT law you need to keep them all.

I always find it interesting that Christians choose Paul's teachings over Jesus' commandments. Why is that? Whenever Paul contradicts Jesus, guess which side Christians come down on? If Jesus was God, don't you think you're choosing the wrong side?

And you've referred to the Spanish Inquisition in your post - but exactly what commandment and/or teaching of Jesus Christ can be shown to influence or support what happened this inquisition?

Matthew 5:19

Making a comparision between Christianity and Islam requires a focal point so really you need to bring in the 2 central figures to each religion - Jesus and Mohammad - and look at the influence they had on this subject from what they said, taught, their behaviour and so on

I made a comparison between the history of 2 religions based on another poster's overly biased version of one of those religions. I did not, and am under no obligation to, say anything about their central figures or teachings. I also said it was a "pretty good summary", not an exact representation. You have been provided evidence that my comment is fair. You have done nothing to cast doubt on the validity of the comment. Guess what? History doesn't change just because you don't like it.

 

[Episaw]

Isn't it funny that bungle bear is an authority on everything and knows much more than what christians do (according to him) but all his knowledge hasn't enabled him to know the truth about Jesus.

I guess what the scripture says is so relevant about those whose salvation is based on their own opinion.

1 Corinthians 1:27 But God chose the foolish things of this world to put the wise to shame. He chose the weak things of this world to put the powerful to shame. What the world thinks is worthless, useless, and nothing at all is what God has used to destroy what the world considers important.

Like me, you probably have a laugh at someone who is not a christian comes onto a christian site and tells us we know NOTHING and he knows everything evidenced by the fact that he corrects everything that we say.