What is "true" Islam?

[ebia]

Isn't it funny that bungle bear is an authority on everything and knows much more than what christians do (according to him) but all his knowledge hasn't enabled him to know the truth about Jesus.

I guess what the scripture says is so relevant about those whose salvation is based on their own opinion.

1 Corinthians 1:27 But God chose the foolish things of this world to put the wise to shame. He chose the weak things of this world to put the powerful to shame. What the world thinks is worthless, useless, and nothing at all is what God has used to destroy what the world considers important.

Like me, you probably have a laugh at someone who is not a christian comes onto a christian site and tells us we know NOTHING and he knows everything evidenced by the fact that he corrects everything that we say.

"I am a christian, so on any topic and every question I am right and you are wrong"?

 

[Episaw]

Maoist Militants are one example according to this list, Séléka are another:

List of terrorist incidents, 2014 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Granted the vast majority are Islamic however....

So I think we are splitting hairs here. I looked up the Wikipedia list and you have to look very hard to find one that was not perpetrated by muslims.

So, not all muslims are terrorists and but nearly all terrorists are muslims.

 

[Dale]

FARC is one of the largest, most active terrorist organisations in the world.

FARC is the Revolutionary Army of Columbia.

Their guerrillas are hiding in the jungles of Columbia.

Can you give one example of a person being killed by FARC outside of Columbia?

In contrast, it might be difficult to find a country where Islamic terrorists have never killed anyone.

FARC certainly doesn't make Latino terrorism a world problem, as you were implying.

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[ebia]

FARC is the Revolutionary Army of Columbia.

Their guerrillas are hiding in the jungles of Columbia.

Can you give one example of a person being killed by FARC outside of Columbia?

In contrast, it might be difficult to find a country where Islamic terrorists have never killed anyone.

FARC certainly doesn't make Latino terrorism a world problem, as you were implying.

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Whoosh.
"What was that?"
"goalposts zooming past"

 

[Dale]

Niblo in post #48:
“Those who chose to ignore the teaching of Islam - who chose to slaughter the innocent regardless of race or creed - are no more representative of Islam than members of the IRA; of Protestant killer squads; or of Hitler’s SS were representative of Christianity.”


The leaders of the Irish Republican Army are Marxist-Leninists. I've seen an interview on TV where Bernadette Devlin Alinsky was asked if she had a religion. She refused to answer.


In Northern Ireland, I don't think religion is a motive for the conflict on either side.


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[Bungle_Bear]

Isn't it funny that bungle bear is an authority on everything and knows much more than what christians do (according to him) but all his knowledge hasn't enabled him to know the truth about Jesus.

I guess what the scripture says is so relevant about those whose salvation is based on their own opinion.

1 Corinthians 1:27 But God chose the foolish things of this world to put the wise to shame. He chose the weak things of this world to put the powerful to shame. What the world thinks is worthless, useless, and nothing at all is what God has used to destroy what the world considers important.

Like me, you probably have a laugh at someone who is not a christian comes onto a christian site and tells us we know NOTHING and he knows everything evidenced by the fact that he corrects everything that we say.

2 very big differences between you and me:
1. I don't know everything (nor do I claim to know everything) and am quite happy for you to correct me when I get something wrong. I rarely post in threads where I have no knowledge, but I do enjoy reading them to learn what others can teach me. That's sort of what these discussions are for. So please, go ahead and show me where I am in error.
2. I don't have any preconceived ideas about you or anyone else here and feel no need to denigrate those I do not know just because I disagree with them.

And I'm still waiting for you to tell everybody why you know that I have not "been there done that". You apparently know the entire breadth of my experience and knowledge, so please enlighten everyone else.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

FARC is the Revolutionary Army of Columbia.

Their guerrillas are hiding in the jungles of Columbia.

Can you give one example of a person being killed by FARC outside of Columbia?

In contrast, it might be difficult to find a country where Islamic terrorists have never killed anyone.

FARC certainly doesn't make Latino terrorism a world problem, as you were implying.

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You asked for an example of Latino terrorists. Don't complain when somebody delivers.

As it happens, though, FARC operates across borders in Peru, Venezuela, Brazil and Ecuador. In the past they have also attacked Mexico, Paraguay, Argentina and Nicaragua. I could also probably name more countries which have not been subject to Muslim terrorist attacks than ones which have.

Please, do some basic research before posting these ill-educated rants.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

So I think we are splitting hairs here. I looked up the Wikipedia list and you have to look very hard to find one that was not perpetrated by muslims.

So, not all muslims are terrorists and but nearly all terrorists are muslims.

You don't have to look that hard. I counted at least 42 incidents.

But that doesn't mean the majority of terrorists currently aren't Islamic. On the other hand, so what? What is the significance of that?

[Edit] Before you go off on another "bungle bear thinks he knows everything" rant, I have just given you the perfect opportunity to demonstrate the depth of your knowledge and analytical abilities. Don't waste it on petty name calling.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Niblo in post #48:
“Those who chose to ignore the teaching of Islam - who chose to slaughter the innocent regardless of race or creed - are no more representative of Islam than members of the IRA; of Protestant killer squads; or of Hitler’s SS were representative of Christianity.”


The leaders of the Irish Republican Army are Marxist-Leninists. I've seen an interview on TV where Bernadette Devlin Alinsky was asked if she had a religion. She refused to answer.


In Northern Ireland, I don't think religion is a motive for the conflict on either side.


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So you're agreeing that not all nominally muslim terrorist organisations are fighting for religious reasons? That's a good step forward

 

[ianb321red]

Matthew 5:19


I made a comparison between the history of 2 religions based on another poster's overly biased version of one of those religions. I did not, and am under no obligation to, say anything about their central figures or teachings. I also said it was a "pretty good summary", not an exact representation. You have been provided evidence that my comment is fair. You have done nothing to cast doubt on the validity of the comment. Guess what? History doesn't change just because you don't like it.

All you've done in reality is cherry pick a couple of bible verses in an attempt to support your claims. It doesn't work.

This doesn't constitute providing "evidence". The validity of your comments is dismissed because the verses you mention do not support the point you are making. This is very clear to me.

You've given me NO evidence of ANY practical or real-life application of Deuteronomy 13:6-10
You've given me NO evidence of ANY teaching of Jesus that could be shown to be in support of the Spanish Inquisition - exactly HOW does Matt 5:19 (which is essentially a commandment to not pick and choose God's commandments) have anything to do with Christian apostasy as you claim it does?

Any finally just because the Spanish Inquisition happened because of the Catholic church, this simply proves nothing about Christian apostasy and what the bible teaches about this.

It is very easy to find references in both the Hadith/ Quran, and the interpretation of them by (most) Muslim scholars to support the Islamic religions attitude towards apostasy.

You simply will not find this type of evidence for Christianity - and you yourself are doing a very good job of demonstrating this. The likes of Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins have tried to work similar arguments in to their books and debates, but their points are very easily dealt with (Sam Harris has tried to use the Deuteronomy 13 argument before - with no success)

Don't get me wrong - the Spanish Inquisition is a horrendous blot on the history of the modern church (even if it was the Catholic church) - but they were NOT following the teachings of Jesus Christ. They were abusing power in the name of a religion.

 

[ebia]

All you've done in reality is cherry pick...

Ironic.

The inquisitions aren't some kind of unique aboration. Nor was the RCC uniquely guilty; pretty much all the reformation movements took it for granted that heretics should be executed as well. A large swathe of Christian history is full of this. And like it or not the bible is varied enough for anyone to find what they are looking for in its pages. Much like the Quran, which also says there shall be no compulsion in religion, something the bible never says.

 

[Danny777]

Ironic.

The inquisitions aren't some kind of unique aboration. Nor was the RCC uniquely guilty; pretty much all the reformation movements took it for granted that heretics should be executed as well. A large swathe of Christian history is full of this. And like it or not the bible is varied enough for anyone to find what they are looking for in its pages. Much like the Quran, which also says there shall be no compulsion in religion, something the bible never says.

I don't think anyone in their right mind when reading the teachings of Jesus will come to the conclusion that He advocated a tyrannical religion where compulsion should be used to force people to follow. The fact that the church has used 'Christianity' for purposes of power, position and greed does not change this, nor should it detract from Jesus message of salvation.

OK, so Jesus is silent on 'compulsion' - this obviously does not mean He advocated it, unless you can find a passage where Jesus asserts that non-believers should be killed for refusal to believe or apostasy?

 

[Niblo]

Niblo in post #48:
“Those who chose to ignore the teaching of Islam - who chose to slaughter the innocent regardless of race or creed - are no more representative of Islam than members of the IRA; of Protestant killer squads; or of Hitler’s SS were representative of Christianity.”
The leaders of the Irish Republican Army are Marxist-Leninists. I've seen an interview on TV where Bernadette Devlin Alinsky was asked if she had a religion. She refused to answer.

In Northern Ireland, I don't think religion is a motive for the conflict on either side.

My response:

The leaders of the IRA were, and are Catholics. The organisation recruits solely from the Catholic community, from both sides of the border.

Bobby Sands, who starved himself to death in the Maze Prison, was given the Last Rites of the Catholic Church.

In the 1970's a number of IRA prisoners, including two commanders, were at Wakefield Prison. Two friends of mine, Father Ken Taylor and Father John Gott, were chaplains at the prison during this period. All Republican prisoners attended Mass and Confession weekly and all participated in interfaith discussions. The Republicans were well versed in Catholic dogma, as one might expect. One of them was a priest..Father Patrick Fell. He was one of the IRA Commanders.

But I guess none of these were really Catholics....just a bunch of Commies, as were the hundreds of Irish American Catholics who funded IRA terrorism for decades!

We have a saying in the UK: If it looks, walks and quacks like a duck it probably is a duck.

You have a nice day now.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

All you've done in reality is cherry pick a couple of bible verses in an attempt to support your claims. It doesn't work.

This doesn't constitute providing "evidence". The validity of your comments is dismissed because the verses you mention do not support the point you are making. This is very clear to me.

You've given me NO evidence of ANY practical or real-life application of Deuteronomy 13:6-10
You've given me NO evidence of ANY teaching of Jesus that could be shown to be in support of the Spanish Inquisition - exactly HOW does Matt 5:19 (which is essentially a commandment to not pick and choose God's commandments) have anything to do with Christian apostasy as you claim it does?

Any finally just because the Spanish Inquisition happened because of the Catholic church, this simply proves nothing about Christian apostasy and what the bible teaches about this.

It is very easy to find references in both the Hadith/ Quran, and the interpretation of them by (most) Muslim scholars to support the Islamic religions attitude towards apostasy.

You simply will not find this type of evidence for Christianity - and you yourself are doing a very good job of demonstrating this. The likes of Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins have tried to work similar arguments in to their books and debates, but their points are very easily dealt with (Sam Harris has tried to use the Deuteronomy 13 argument before - with no success)

Don't get me wrong - the Spanish Inquisition is a horrendous blot on the history of the modern church (even if it was the Catholic church) - but they were NOT following the teachings of Jesus Christ. They were abusing power in the name of a religion.

No, you may not keep moving the goalposts to suit your needs. You asked for an example of anyone being murdered for Christian apostasy. I gave you the Spanish Inquisition, then the Medieval Inquisition. You asked where the Bible advocates such behaviour, I gave you Deuteronomy 13. You asked which of Jesus' teachings supported this, I gave you Matthew 5.

In return you have just said "I don't like your argument", deployed the No True Scotsman argument and narrowed the requirement to specific verses in Deuteronomy. Why don't you try demonstrating how I have not provided what you asked for by showing how any of them do not demonstrate what you asked? I'm not interested in the No True Scotsman response you have tried so far.

Questions for you:
1. Did the Inquisitions kill people for apostasy?
2. Does Deuteronomy 13 say to kill apostates?
3. Does Matthew 5 say to obey all God's laws?

 

[ebia]

I'm not interested in the No True Scotsman response you have tried so far.

He did warn you before you started that he would do that.

 

[ebia]

I don't think anyone in their right mind when reading the teachings of Jesus will come to the conclusion that He advocated a tyrannical religion where compulsion should be used to force people to follow.

I struggle to see how anyone in their right mind would be tyrannical.
And that's the main point, I think. In all religions (and none) terrorism says more about the people, their desire for power, the manipulation of religion for power, sensitivity to violence, etc.

In the west we don't like violence that's in our face. But we've no problem sending off drones to obliterate villages, no problem condoning torture if it's out of sight, no problem locking up people on remote pacific islands indefinitely for no good reason at all.

In places like afghanistan, where people are desensitised to violence, where most of the population are too young to have ever known what a peaceful functional society looks like, of course the violence is more in-your-face.

OK, so Jesus is silent on 'compulsion' - this obviously does not mean He advocated it, unless you can find a passage where Jesus asserts that non-believers should be killed for refusal to believe or apostasy?

Since the bible works by telling a story, that's not what one would be looking for.
The OT takes it virtually for granted that worshipping other Gods is about as bad as it gets, not just for the individual but contaminates the whole community.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

He did warn you before you started that he would do that.

True.

 

[ebia]

True.

It's not often someone begins a discussion with explicitly saying "if it looks like I'm loosing I'll resort to logical fallacies".

 

[Bungle_Bear]

It's not often someone begins a discussion with explicitly saying "if it looks like I'm loosing I'll resort to logical fallacies".

I'm actually surprised by ianb321red, too. He's normally more receptive and open.

To me it looks like he is conflating the fact that the 3 things he doesn't want to exist do exist with a claim that that justifies killing apostates (which is not a claim I have made).

 

[Bungle_Bear]

All you've done in reality is cherry pick a couple of bible verses in an attempt to support your claims. It doesn't work.

I've provided specific answers to your cherry picked questions. Your not liking the answers doesn't alter the fact that they are valid answers.

But the point of this post is to deal to some moved goalposts. Specifically this one:

You've given me NO evidence of ANY practical or real-life application of Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Gaspard II de Coligny

I suspect you'll have some excuse why this doesn't meet your request (perhaps because he was not stoned as verse 10 requires?), but it is the example you asked for.