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What is "true" Islam?

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Bungle_Bear

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In the site you provided, there sure were ALOT of 'Al ____' indicating solidarity with Islam .

(staff edit)
You do realise that not every arab terrorist is fighting for purely religious reasons, don't you?

As for the Bible, Jesus encouraged Christians pray for their enemies / treat those who are hostile toward us with respect / don't shed innocent blood / treat others as we would want to be treated / not to retaliate and leave wrath to God / etc.... Have you got an issue with any of these then ?
There's a whole lot more to the Bible than Jesus' teachings ;)
 
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Bungle_Bear

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The statistics on terrorists given in the chart above are impossible to believe.
Here's the official list of foreign organizations designated as terrorists by the US State Department.
A quick glance shows that the vast majority are Islamic.
Actually a quick glance says that at least 25 of those organisations are not fighting to spread Islam as a religion.

The other point you forget is that the statistics are more geared towards acts of terrorism than simple number of terrorist organisations.
 
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Dale

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Actually a quick glance says that at least 25 of those organisations are not fighting to spread Islam as a religion.

The other point you forget is that the statistics are more geared towards acts of terrorism than simple number of terrorist organisations.


You don't give a link or a source for this chart.
Your chart says that 42% of terrorist acts are caused by Latinos.
Name one organization of terrorist Latinos. What are they fighting for?


*

*
 
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Bungle_Bear

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You don't give a link or a source for this chart.
Your chart says that 42% of terrorist acts are caused by Latinos.
Name one organization of terrorist Latinos. What are they fighting for?
FARC is one of the largest, most active terrorist organisations in the world.
 
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theFijian

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Al Queda and ISIS both profess Islam . All the Terrorists Groups in the Middle East we hear about on TV today, are Muslims (albeit extremist) .

The Quran (Islams most Holy Book to live by) is read by both Terrorists Muslims AND non Terrorist Fundamentalist Muslims ; heres over 100 passages from the Quran encouraging and endorsing violence as a Muslim lifestyle . Were you aware of these facts ? : The Quran's Verses of Violence

Can you please explain why you think I speak 'a blatant falsehood' ? Thanks.

I suppose the Continuity IRa have all converted to Islam?? This is the blatant falsehood
 
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TheyCallMeDavid

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Thank you for reinforcing my point about you being ill-educated.

You do realise that not every arab terrorist is fighting for purely religious reasons, don't you ?



You don't know how many are indeed are not fighting for religious reasons . The Muslims Holy Book gives a license for fighting including Jihad --- it would be akin to an Atheistic Secular Humanist who fully believes in the ideology of Moral Relativism but doesn't care to live according to it (it just doesn't happen) .
 
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Bungle_Bear

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You don't know how many are indeed are not fighting for religious reasons . The Muslims Holy Book gives a license for fighting including Jihad --- it would be akin to an Atheistic Secular Humanist who fully believes in the ideology of Moral Relativism but doesn't care to live according to it (it just doesn't happen) .
I'll take that to mean that you did not realise (cannot comprehend?) that:
1) not all arabs are muslims.
2) arabs can fight for something other than religion.
3) muslims can fight for something other than religion.

As a matter of interest, do you know what all those terrorist groups are fighting for? I know the answer is "no", since you make such ridiculous claims..... Here's a challenge for you. Go through the list until you get to the first "Al-" organisation that is not fighting simply to spread Islam. It's not very far down.....
 
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Niblo

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What is the ‘true’ nature of Islam. One person has written:

‘True Islam is marrying 4 women, fighting/Jihad'ing "In sabil allah" (in the name of God to promote Islam) and being unequal to women.’

Please allow me to make a comment on the nature of Jihad (In šāʾ Allāh, I can return to the other matters at some other time, if you like). Oh, one thing first:

Millions of Arab and non-Arab Christians (e.g. some thirty million Javanese and Sudanese Christians in Indonesia) worship God as ‘Allah’ - and believe Him to be the One True God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In spite of the apparent differences in how God is understood according to Biblical and Qur’anic content, Arabic-speaking Jews, Christians and Muslims together have been addressing God as ‘Allah’ for the last fourteen centuries (and Arabic-speaking Jews and Christians for far longer than this). Although I am not a Muslim I have family members who are. I am accustomed to using their terminology, and will use it now.

In his introduction to Sahih Muslim’s ‘Book of Jihad and Expedition’ the translator (Abd-al-Hamid Siddiqui) makes the following comment:

‘The word Jihad is derived from the verb jahada which means: ‘he exerted himself’. Thus literally, Jihad means exertion, striving; but in a juridico-religious sense it signifies the exertion of one's power to the utmost of one's capacity in the cause of Allah. Thus Jihad in Islam is not an act of violence directed indiscriminately against the non-Muslims; it is the name given to an all-round struggle which a Muslim should launch against evil in whatever form or shape it appears.’

(End of quote).

The Noble Qur’an defines ‘jihad’ as: ‘Striving, with one’s self and one’s money, in the cause of Allah’.

It says this:

‘Do you consider giving water to pilgrims and tending the Sacred Mosque to be equal to the deeds of those who believe in Allah and the Last Day and who strive in Allah’s path? They are not equal in Allah’s eyes. Allah does not guide such benighted people. Those who believe, who migrated and strove hard in Allah’s way with their possessions and their persons, are in Allah’s eyes much higher in rank; it is they who will triumph; and their Lord gives them the good news of His mercy and pleasure, Gardens where they will have lasting bliss and where they will remain for ever: truly, there is a tremendous reward with Allah.’

(Al-Tawba: Verses 19-22).

And this:

‘When a sura is revealed (saying): “Believe in Allah and strive hard alongside His Messenger,” their wealthy ask your permission (to be exempt), saying: “Allow us to stay behind with the others”. They prefer to be with those who stay behind. Their hearts have been sealed: they do not comprehend. But the Messenger and those who believe with him strive hard with their possessions and their persons. The best things belong to them; it is they who will prosper. Allah has prepared Gardens graced with flowing streams for them and there they will stay. That is the supreme triumph.’

(Al-Tawba: Verses 86-89).

And this:

‘The desert Arabs say: “We have faith.” (Prophet), tell them: “You do not have faith. What you should say instead is, ‘We have submitted,’ for faith has not yet entered your hearts.” If you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not diminish any of your deeds: He is most forgiving and most merciful. The true believers are the ones who have faith in Allah and His Messenger and leave all doubt behind, the ones who have struggled with their possessions and their persons in Allah’s way: they are the ones who are true.’

(Al-Hujurat: Verses 14-15).

We see that Muslims are required to strive in Allah (Subḥānahu ūta'āla)’s path; or in His way; or in His cause. But what do these terms mean?

His path; His way; His cause; each of these means the same thing: That Muslims should strive to uphold His commandments, and to turn away - in condemnation - from all He has forbidden. Muslims should strive to excel in prayer; in charity; in good deeds of all kinds; in standing up for what is true against what is false; and yes, in fighting when they have to. Is there any Christian who would not do likewise?

But what of warfare?

According to Abd-al-Hamid Siddiqui:

‘Qital fi sabilillah (fighting in the way of Allah) is only one aspect of Jihad. Even this qital in Islam is not an act of mad brutality. It has its material and moral functions, i. e. self-preservation and the preservation of the moral order in the world. The verdict of all religious and ethical philosophies - ancient and modern - justifies war on moral grounds. When one nation is assaulted by the ambitions and cupidity of another, the doctrine of non-resistance is anti-social, as it involves non-assertion, not only of one's own rights, but of those of others who need protection against the forces of tyranny and oppression.’

(End of quote).

Muslims are obliged to protect themselves, and all who seek their protection. They must protect the defenceless; women; children; and the old from privation, suffering and moral peril. According to the Shari’a, fighting in a ‘just war’ is a duty (as it is in all other forms of state governance, whether religious or secular).

‘Let those of you who are willing to trade the life of this world for the life to come, fight in Allah’s way. To anyone who fights in Allah’s way, whether killed or victorious, We shall give a great reward. Why should you not fight in Allah’s cause and for those oppressed men, women, and children who cry out: “Lord, rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors! By Your grace, give us a protector and give us a helper!”?’

(Al-Nisa’: Verses 74-75).

The Noble Qur’an advocates opposition to aggression and oppression. However, war is allowed ONLY as an act of self defence, and NEVER as an act of aggression.

‘Those who have been attacked are permitted to take up arms because they have been wronged – Allah has the power to help them – those who have been driven unjustly from their homes only for saying: “Our Lord is Allah.” If Allah did not repel some people by means of others, many monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, where Allah’s name is much invoked, would have been destroyed. Allah is sure to help those who help His cause – Allah is strong and mighty…..’

(Al-Hajj: Verses 39-40).

And here are some difficult verses:

‘Fight in Allah’s cause against those who fight you, but do not overstep the limits: Allah does not love those who overstep the limits. Kill them wherever you encounter them, and drive them out from where they drove you out, for persecution is more serious than killing. Do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque unless they fight you there. If they do fight you, kill them – this is what such disbelievers deserve - but if they stop, then Allah is most forgiving and merciful. Fight them until there is no more persecution, and worship is devoted to Allah. If they cease hostilities, there can be no (further) hostility, except towards aggressors.’

(Al-Baqara: Verses 190-193).

Two lines in these verses require clarification.

‘………………but do not overstep the limits’: The scholars agree that the Arabic command ‘la ta tadu’ prohibits the starting of hostilities; fighting non-combatants; and making a disproportionate response to aggression.

‘Kill them wherever you encounter them’: The Muslims were concerned as to whether it was permitted to retaliate when attacked within the sacred precincts in Mecca (when on pilgrimage). In this line they are given permission to fight back wherever they encounter their attackers, in the precinct or outside it.

Whenever possible, war is to be avoided; even when preparations have been made:

‘Prepare whatever forces you (believers) can muster, including warhorses, to frighten off Allah’s enemies and yours, and warn others unknown to you but known to Allah. Whatever you give in Allah’s cause will be repaid to you in full, and you will not be wronged. But if they incline towards peace, you (Prophet) must also incline towards it, and put your trust in Allah: He is the All Hearing, the All Knowing.’

(Al-Anfal: Verses 60-61).

Under no circumstance are Muslims permitted to use violence against the innocent. This is a great sin; and Allah (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) does not advocate sin:

‘Yet when (these people) do something disgraceful, they say: “We found our forefathers doing this,” and: “Allah has commanded us to do this.” Say (Prophet): “Allah does not command disgraceful deeds. How can you say about Allah things that you do not know (to be true)?” Say: “My Lord commands righteousness. Direct your worship straight to Him wherever you pray; call on Him; devote your religion entirely to Him. Just as He first created you, so you will come back (to life) again.”’

(Al-A‘raf: Verses 28-29).

And again:

‘Do not take life, which Allah has made sacred, except by right: if anyone is killed wrongfully, We have given authority to the defender of his rights, but he should not be excessive in taking life, for he is already aided (by Allah).’

(Al-Nahl: Verse 33).

The prohibition against killing the innocent has always been the law of Allah (Subḥānahu ūta'āla):

‘We decreed to the Children of Israel that if anyone kills a person – unless in retribution for murder or spreading corruption in the land – it is as if he kills all mankind, while if any saves a life it is as if he saves the lives of all mankind. Our messengers came to them with clear signs, but many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.’

(Al-Ma’ida: Verse 32).

There are some who portray ‘jihad’ as a ‘holy war’, in spite of the fact that the word 'holy' is never used in the Noble Qur’an in connection with war. According to the Noble Qur’an no war is holy; not under any circumstance.

A final quote from Abd-al-Hamid Siddiqui:

‘So great is the respect for humanly feelings in Islam that even the wanton destruction of enemy's crops or property is strictly forbidden. The righteous Caliphs followed closely the teachings of Allah, and those of His Apostle, in letter and spirit. The celebrated address which the first Caliph Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) gave to his army is permeated with the noble spirit with which war in Islam is permitted. He said:

‘"Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone."'

Those who chose to ignore the teaching of Islam - who chose to slaughter the innocent regardless of race or creed - are no more representative of Islam than members of the IRA; of Protestant killer squads; or of Hitler’s SS were representative of Christianity.

As for the use of violence to promote Islam:

It is a fact of history that responsibility for the spread of Islam throughout the world lies with the Sufis rather than the sword. It is the Sufis who converted the majority of non Muslims to Islam.

I hope this helps.

May I wish each of you a Happy and Holy Christmas, and the very best of New Years.
 
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ebia

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According to a member of the Muslim community in Salford interviewed on BBC News this morning (in light of the Alan Henning killing) "true" Islam is about "compassion and forgiveness".

But I ask the question, is this actually "true" Islam or is this what (arguably most) Muslims would like Islam to be?

Is "compassion and forgiveness" at the heart and central to "true" Islam, and are the atrocities committed by extremists a perversion and distortion of Islamic teaching?

Or is it the opposite? Are the extremists actually more au fait with "true" Islam, and those Muslims talking about "compassion and forgiveness" quite distanced and removed from the truth of Islam?

Are there clear passages in the Qu'ran and Hadith to support either "compassion and forgiveness" OR are there passages which might support the darker side of Islam?
If Islam is true, then whatever that truth is is true islam.
If not (which I assume is the case you are thinking of) then however Muslims, collectively across time and geography, interpret it.

The prominent big extremist groups are each different but all are based in one modern narrow stream of Islamic thought datable to the eighteenth century.
 
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ebia

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ebia

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Unfortunately, the extremists are actually the people who take their Korans literally and do what it explicitly commands.
Only selective passages that fit their agenda.
 
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ianb321red

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Propagandist for a terror organisation says "we will win and we are scary".
And in other news the sun came up this morning.

It may appear to be propaganda, but the reality is that what is described in the article IS and HAS been happening, so in my mind this - if it is from a credible source - appears to be perfectly plausible.

So I wouldn't be quite as dismissive.....
 
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ebia

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It may appear to be propaganda, but the reality is that what is described in the article IS and HAS been happening, so in my mind this - if it is from a credible source - appears to be perfectly plausible.

So I wouldn't be quite as dismissive.....

That's what he wants you to believe, because thats all part of how his organisation achieves its ends.
 
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Episaw

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Selected passages taken out of context. Make no mistake, these people will kill anyone who disagrees with them....regardless of that person's religion.

The history of Islam has been conversion by the sword and peodophilia. Mohammed had I don't know how many wives, one of whom was a nine year old.

Most of the time the only way he could get people to embrace islam was by the sword. Convert or die.

Both these have never changed. Over the last 12 months I have read half a dozen books about Islam written by ex muslims and the truths revealed about the way women and children are treated is horrendous.

Islam is a religion for men to abuse others and as that is the tradition perpetrated by men for men, next to no one complains about the fact.

The Koran says it is OK to lie to the infidels if it means putting one over them. The Koran says it is OK to kill the infidels if they stand in the way of an Islamic caliphate or if they refuse to convert to Islam.

The death penalty is standard for anyone who leaves Islam and joins another religion because in doing so they are dishonouring their family.

Not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslims.

Muslims of all persuasions have the avowed intention of establishing islam as the only true religion. Every new mosque that is built it is another step to taking over that country according to them.

Terrorist acts by individuals have nothing to do with islam according to muslims when nearly all terrorists attacks are the product of islam.

So what is true islam? It speaks for itself.
 
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ebia

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Over the last 12 months I have read half a dozen books about Islam written by ex muslims
Would you recommend ex-christians with enough motivation to write a book as the best source of information on christianity?

'Cause most of what you've just stated false or misleading.
 
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ianb321red

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Would you recommend ex-christians with enough motivation to write a book as the best source of information on christianity?

'Cause most of what you've just stated false or misleading.

Which are false/ misleading - because the first statement is certainly true (Mohammed had 16 wives, 2 concubines and another dozen 'uncertain' relationships...)
 
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ebia

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Which are false/ misleading - because the first statement is certainly true (Mohammed had 16 wives, 2 concubines and another dozen 'uncertain' relationships...)

And Abraham had how many?
 
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