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Is the Torah bondage?


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Meowzltov

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I pray that the Jews will be saved according to God's special grace
Scripture seems to indicate that non-believing Jews will indeed be given some sort of redeeming grace for the sake of the Patriarchs.

Romans 11:26 all Israel will be saved.

Romans 11:28 as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs
 
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Bob S

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Scripture seems to indicate that non-believing Jews will indeed be given some sort of redeeming grace for the sake of the Patriarchs.

Romans 11:26 all Israel will be saved.

Romans 11:28 as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs
Oh boy, now I know my salvation is definitely sealed since I am half Jew. Just kidding, I knew it years ago when I became a Christian. SDAs tried to take away the promise, but it has only fortified me more.

Jude: 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,


25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.


Claim the promises!
 
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Wgw

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It said that when we came into the land there would be one designated place. That place came to be the Temple in Jerusalem. So NOW there is NO OTHER PLACE. No temple, no sacrifices. We Jews must do as Hosea the prophet said to do when there was no temple and let the words of our lips (prayers) be as bullocks (sacrifices). Hosea 14:2 In the meantime, Jews are KEEPING THE LAW by not rendering sacrifice in a location forbidden by Torah.

I do not believe any Jews are keeping the law, because failure to recognize the Messiah, and executing him, were unlawful acts. Thus I do not regard Rabinnical Judaism, with its idea about the Temple and sacrifices, as any more correct or lawful than the Beta Israel, who have sacrifices, and the Karaites, who will have them as soon as they can obtain the ashes of a red heiffer and a levetically purr kohanim to officiate.

These sacrifices, and the prayers offered by Rabinnical Jews, are unlawful. Only the Christian Church posesses any organic legitimacy or sacramental efficacy; our prayers alone are rendered to God in true service to His commandments, for we alone correctly identified Him when He walked among us.

Furthermore, from a purely Orthodox or Catholic POV, only a portion of the Christian Church is lawful. My view is that if my denomination or your denomination is to view, for example, the Baptists as schismatic and in error, we must regard by extension Rabinnical Judaism as being an entirely different and corrupt religion.

My view is that Christianity is the sole lawful continuation of Judaism; Rabinnical Judaism postdates Christianity, strmming from the destruction of the temple, and represents a radical corruption of ancient hieratic Judaism based on the Pharisaicali doctrine; imagine if the Essens or the Sadducees had survived the Roman genocide against the Jews. and not the Pharisees, and you should get a sense as to how Judaism woukd become corrupted, but in different respects, since all three schools were corruptions of Judaism, and Judaism was disintegrating into warring factions of these sects at the time of our Lord.

The Beta Israel are thesmelves in error of course, just in a different manner.

I feel like the last truly pious figure of pre-Christian Judaism we encounter in the Bible is St. Symeon. I doubt after his departure (the Nunc Dimitis) there were very many pious, authentic priests of the Temple.
 
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SAAN

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The torah is the law that condemns to death. That law was paid in full and nailed to the cross by our Risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. law=works= death

Saved by GRACE!!
Please show IN CONTEXT where the law was nailed to the cross.

The penalty for breaking the law (death) was nailed to the cross, not the law itself.
 
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bugkiller

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It is not done away with. I have already explained this. For example, when Israel was in exile they could not perform sacrifices. The sin sacrifices is not "done away with" but it is now substituted by a different sacrifice. Just like the Levites, they were substituted by Malki-tzedek. Here is another example, let's say there are no vehicles in the U.S., therefore no one can brake speed limits. Is that law "removed"? No, it is simply impossible to do since there is a certain condition that must be met.
I'm sorry but you need a dictionary very badly. You need to also understand about contracts also known as covenants.

bugkiller
 
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Sophrosyne

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Thus the law was voided.

bugkiller
yup.... but those under the Law were still using it to kill Christians after Jesus' death which pretty much flies in the
face of claims made by folks here in the forum.
 
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Meowzltov

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I do not believe any Jews are keeping the law, because failure to recognize the Messiah, and executing him, were unlawful acts.
There is nothing in the Torah about the Messiah.

Further, you have a misunderstanding about what it means to be a law keeper. The standard is not perfection. Indeed it is built into the law what to do when one falls into sin.

our prayers alone are rendered to God in true service to His commandments, for we alone correctly identified Him when He walked among us.
Are you saying that only the prayers offered by Christians are heard by God? I hope not - that would be a serious error.

Furthermore, from a purely Orthodox or Catholic POV, only a portion of the Christian Church is lawful. My view is that if my denomination or your denomination is to view, for example, the Baptists as schismatic and in error, we must regard by extension Rabinnical Judaism as being an entirely different and corrupt religion.
Catholicism does not view Rabbinical Judaism as being an entirely corrupt religion.
 
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Wgw

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There is nothing in the Torah about the Messiah.

The Messiah is implied, which is why the Samaritans, whi reject the rest of the Old Testament, believe one will come.

Rejecting the identity of Jesus Christ as the Messiah is a violation of the Torah: all five books of the Torah contain Christological prophecies, and furthermore require obedience to God. Jesus Christ is God; to reject Him as the Messiah is to violate all commandments in the Torah requiring us to obey God.

The mental gymnastics non-Christian Jews have to go through in order to deny the Godhood and Messianic identity of Christ are a testament to the fallen nature of humanity in general.

Now, earlier, by the way, you cited Hosea as justification for the Rabinnical practice of not offering animal sacrifices. In saying e Messiah is not in the Torah, you have cintradicted yourself; the doctrine of the Messiah is explicitly stated by the Prophets.

If we say, therefore, that it is not a violation of the Torah for Jews to reject the identity of Jesus Christ as the Messiah, because the Messianic prophecies are more explicitly made by the Prophets, we must also by this same logic say that it is a violation of the Torah for the Jews not to make the required animal sacrifices.

If, on the other hand, we regard Hosea, as a prophet, as having the ability to augment Torah pertaining to sacrifice, we must concurrently also say that the Torah is augmented by, for example, Isaiah.

Thus, the Torah is violated by the Jews who do not perform animal sacrifices according to your logic, but is suspended in effect on this point by Hosea, on the other hand, the Jews violate the Torah by not respecting the deity or Messianic identity of Jesus Christ, both on the basis of the Pentateuch alone, and also on the basis of the augmentation posed by the words of the holy prophets who predicted explicitly the birth of our Redeemer.

Further, you have a misunderstanding about what it means to be a law keeper. The standard is not perfection. Indeed it is built into the law what to do when one falls into sin.

I am well aware of that actually. However, that law has been superceded. Thus, when we fall into sin, and there are many more sins than merely transgressing the 613 or so commandments of the Torah, and also, note that we are born i to sin, and thus sin even if we adhere to the Torah precisely, we must go to our priest for sacramental confession. No need to kill any animals. Baptism, confession, and the Eucharist make us whole.

Unfortunately, these sacraments are not available to non-Christian Jews, so they must depend on God's infinite love and mercy for their salvation.

Are you saying that only the prayers offered by Christians are heard by God? I hope not - that would be a serious error.

No. I am rather saying that only sacraments performed by the Christian Church, the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Faith defined in the Nicene Creed (however you wish to define that, ecclesiologically; Orthodox, RC, or the invisible church, branch or local ecclesiologies favoured by Protestants) are efficacious, posess inherent grace, and are salvific ex opere operanto.

God hears the prayers of Jews, and might grant them accoeding to His loving-kindness, but it is not guaranteed. Keeping the Torah, or rather the corrupt Talmudic, Samaritan or Ethiopic exegesis of it, and circumcision, are not acts which confer grace ex opere operanto; by themselves, they are not the means of grace and do not directly facilitate the salvation of those who offer them.

On the other hand, if a baptized Christian dies in what Roman Catholicism likes to call "a state of grace," their salvation is assured.

Catholicism does not view Rabbinical Judaism as being an entirely corrupt religion.

Perhaps not. And it is not entirely corrupt. Rather, it is about as corrupt as Mormonism. Indeed, it is very similiar to Mormonism: replace Joseph Smith with the Talmudic Rabbis and the Geonim, and replace The Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price and so on, with the Mishnah, the tractates of the Babylonian Talmud and the Jerusalem Talmud, the Sulchan Aruch, the Zohar, and so on, and one should get the idea.

Many Christians might not want to hear this, but contemporary Rabinnical Judaism, like Mormonism, is a close corruption of the Chriatian faith. The old Jewish religion became generally invalid on or about Pentecost in AD 33, and entirely invalid in 70 AD with the destruction of the Temple, which resulted in the loss of what superificially remained of it in terms of its ability to perform the sacraments of the Mosaic law.

Judaism, as it exists now, is not "another path" available uniquely to the tribes of Israel; if it were, the majority of the Apostles including their leaders Ss. Peter and James the Just, would not have devoted their energies to converting the Jews to Christianity. One cannot obtain salvation by being a Jew. Judaism has been entirely superceded by Christianity; all of the covenants made between God, Abraham, Moses and ancient Israel now apply to the Christian Church. Just as the Ten Northern Tribes were effectively cut off in their rebellion, Judah and Benjamin have in turn merged into and been supplanted by the Church which was founded by the holiest and most pious of their sons.

And we must not forget that a huge number of Jews embraced Jesus Christ. Of the persecuted Christians in the Middle East, ld the Coptic Church, the Greek Orthodox Patriarchates of Jerusalem, Antioch and Constantinople, the Syriac Orthodox Church, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, a very large number are descended from the ancient Jews, and many have Jewish family names. For example, my bishop has the last name "Kaplan." This is particularly the case in the Syriac and Greek Orthodox Patriarchates of Antioch, however, the Assyrians are largely descended from Mesopotamian and Persian Jews converted by St. Thomas and his successors, and even retain a lectionary that preserves Torah/Haftarah pairings. Likewise, the Nasranis of India are more likely than not descended in large measure from Kochin Jews converted by St. Thomas.

The Eastern Church broadly speaking expanded wherever Aramaic was spoken, which in practice meant, wherever there were substantial populations of Jews, Syrians and Mesopotamians. And it covered most of Asia until the persecutions of Tamerlane. There are by the way very small numbers of crypto Jews in China, and the last surviving Manichaean Temple is now used by Chinese Buddhists, Manichaeanism being another religion to spread wherever Syriac was spoken.

In like manner, the conversion of Ethiopia to Christianity was doubtless facilitated in part by the pre-existing Beta Israel; Ethiopian Orthodoxy is the most Judaic form of Christianity.
 
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Meowzltov

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In saying e Messiah is not in the Torah, you have cintradicted yourself; the doctrine of the Messiah is explicitly stated by the Prophets.
The Torah (books of Law) are the first five books of the Bible. The Prophets are not part of the Torah.
 
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Meowzltov

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If we say, therefore, that it is not a violation of the Torah for Jews to reject the identity of Jesus Christ as the Messiah, because the Messianic prophecies are more explicitly made by the Prophets, we must also by this same logic say that it is a violation of the Torah for the Jews not to make the required animal sacrifices.
According to Judaism, a prophet can suspend temporarily the need to keep a particular law as need demands. In the case of sacrifices, it was a case of conflict between two sets of laws -- the laws of sacrifice and the law demanding that sacrifice only be made in the designated spot (the Temple at Jerusalem). Hosea solved this problem by saying that prayers were to be substitutes for sacrifices during this time.

The prophets talking about the messiah are NOT an example of them making such a temporary modification to the Torah, nor is there any command in the prophets to believe in the Messiah.
 
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Wgw

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According to Judaism, a prophet can suspend temporarily the need to keep a particular law as need demands.

According to Christianity, the Church is the New Israel; the ritual laws were terminated permanently for all gentiles by the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15.

In the case of sacrifices, it was a case of conflict between two sets of laws -- the laws of sacrifice and the law demanding that sacrifice only be made in the designated spot (the Temple at Jerusalem).

There is no such law. The Torah requires sacrifices be made in a tabernacle; it says nothing of Jerusalem and nothing of the Temple. At the time Moses wrote the Torah, Israel was wandering in the desert, and until the reign of King David, Jerusalem was in the hands of the Jebusites.

Hosea solved this problem by saying that prayers were to be substitutes for sacrifices during this time.

So, the instructions of the prophets regarding the Messiah are in your opinion temporary and lapsed, whereas the equally temporary, in your opinion, opinion of Hosea regarding the Temple is still binding?

Let us not descend to low casuistry. You are, in my view, going to excessive lengths to defend the abhorrent and inconsistent beliefs of a false religion you yourself rejected, according to Rabinnical standards, when you became Roman Catholic.

Now, to be clear, the Judaism of the Old Testament, and of Ss. Joachim and Anna, Zecharias and Elizabeth, and Symeon, was a true religion; it was the successor to the faith of Noah, having been restored by Abraham with guidance from Melchizedek, and again by Moses and Aaron, and then later by various prophets like Isaiah, Elias, Daniel, Ezekiel, Nehemiah, Hosea and others, and by the holy priests Zadok and Ezra. Indeed, the Judaism of the New Testament owes more to Ezra and Nehemiah than practically anyone else; they rebuilt the religion after the Babylonain exile, and many aspects of Judaism which were later implemented in Christianity, for example, the lectionary system and thrice daily prayer, most likely started with Ezra.

However, that religion is gone; it is a defunct faith, as defunct as Egyptian paganism. The religion we call "Judaism" is actually three religions: a corrupted form of Judaism practiced in Ethiopia by the self-proclaimed descendants of Solomon and the Queen of Sheba (I am inclined to believe them, by the way) in relative isolation, an artifice contrived by the Rabbis to keep those synagogues which had rejected Christ from converting to Christianity after our Lord's prediction of the destruction of the Temple came to pass, a synthetic faith built upon the abusive, hypocritical legalism of the Scribes and Pharisees, which our Lord rejected unequivocally, and lastly, Karaitism, an ill-fated attempt by well-meaning Jews to purge the religion of Rabinnical influence, which for a time drew many adherents, and which also proselytized the Khazar ethnic group of Crimean Tartars, but which has largely died out.

The Karaites correctly understood the Mishnah, Talmud and the very idea of an "Oral Torah" were errors; the Sadducees, who had dominated the sacrificial cult of the Second Temple, had always rejected these. The Karaites, however, failed to realize why Sadduceanism died off; the destruction of the Temple was the fulfillment of a prophecy of our Lord, and provided reason enough for all of the less devout Jews, that is, the Hellenes, Sadduceess and so on, to either convert to paganism for fear of Roman persecution, to join an apocalyptic sect like the Gnostics, Ebionites, Essenes, and so on, or to convert to Christianity.

Only those Jews who were extremely committed to a specific, extremely legalistic interpretation of the law, to the Torah, lr rather their interpretation of the Torah, as a way of life, would have the courage to continue, especially after the spectacular failure of the Bar Kochba revolt of 130 AD. After the destruction of Jerusalem, we no longer really hear anything about the apocalyptic Jewish sects. We know some were murdered outright by the Romans.

My belief is these sects almost entirely died off due to abandonment or martyrdom following the loss of the Temple, leaving only the Scribes and Pharisees, who became the Orthodox Jews, by slowly transforming the Oral Torah into a written Talmud, and who were positively committed to this idea of the Torah, who indeed I think can be said to worship the Torah as a manifestation of God (the veneration given to every Torah scroll by far exceeds that given to even the most beloved Orthodox icons), and also remote Jewish populations in India and Ethiopia, who themselves primarily converted to Christianity.

I consider Orthodox Judaism to have made an idol of the Torah: to the Orthodox Jew, the Torah is the Word of God, not Jesus Christ, and to the extent that our Lord challenges their miscocneption about what the Law is and what it means, He is to be despised.

Thus, it is imperative Christian converts from Judaism thoroughly re-evaluate every jot and tittle of the Torah, in light of the Gospel, and the traditional teaching of the Church. Because, frankly, we understand it far better than any Jew. I firmly believe the Septuagint preserves a more faithful rendering of the Pentateuch and the Psalter than the Masoretic text.
 
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Vine and Branches

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I'm sorry but you need a dictionary very badly. You need to also understand about contracts also known as covenants.

bugkiller
I know what a covenant is. It is an agreement between two parties. You need to actually read what I am saying and not respond as if you know it all. To be honest, I have provided mass amounts of sources and yet you will not even read what I am writing. I have read through you comments and I have tried to respond to them fully but it is hard to do so when it is a one-way conversation.
 
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Bob S

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Please show IN CONTEXT where the law was nailed to the cross.

The penalty for breaking the law (death) was nailed to the cross, not the law itself.
Matt 5:18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
As per the Apostle Paul Jesus accomplished the law. We know that the 10 commandments are not our guide today because they were only temporary as proven in 2Cor3:7-11. They were the Jews duty during the life of Jesus on this Earth. We know that Jesus accomplished the sacrificial system on the Cross so that would leave the remainder of the book of the law. No more 10 in the book, no more sacrificial system in the book. Those things are for sure. Now as to the remainder of the book I guess you have to trust Paul again in all his writings and especially the book of Galatians chapter 3. I know trusting Paul is hard because it goes against all you have been taught. Jesus choose him to proclaim the Good News to the Gentiles. I believe Jesus did keep him from falling and present us with the truth.

I trust John in telling us the truth as to what Christians are required to do. Yes, I direct you once again to 1Jn 3:19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

Really simple isn't it. See you on line Friday Lord willing.
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disciple1

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I know what a covenant is. It is an agreement between two parties. You need to actually read what I am saying and not respond as if you know it all. To be honest, I have provided mass amounts of sources and yet you will not even read what I am writing. I have read through you comments and I have tried to respond to them fully but it is hard to do so when it is a one-way conversation.
I think we have all read the bible and none of us can convince the other, we just share our beliefs.
Hebrews chapter 7 verses 11,12 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood for on the basis of it the law was given to the people why was there still need for another priest to come one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.
John chapter 15 verse 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
Galatians chapter 5 verse 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command love your neighbor as your self.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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I know what a covenant is. It is an agreement between two parties. You need to actually read what I am saying and not respond as if you know it all. To be honest, I have provided mass amounts of sources and yet you will not even read what I am writing. I have read through you comments and I have tried to respond to them fully but it is hard to do so when it is a one-way conversation.
Don't sweat it brother... it's about the other people that read the post rarely about winning the argument. Post truth for those of us that appreciate it and don't worry about the rest... we got Grace for that. Amen
 
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bugkiller

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I know what a covenant is. It is an agreement between two parties. You need to actually read what I am saying and not respond as if you know it all. To be honest, I have provided mass amounts of sources and yet you will not even read what I am writing. I have read through you comments and I have tried to respond to them fully but it is hard to do so when it is a one-way conversation.
I've been at this for a while. To accept what you've posted requires me to redefine words and even substitute your words for the words found in either the English or orignial language versions. You know what the hanging points are unless you only started talking to others about the Bible or religious activity.

A covenant like the NC dosen't fit your definition of covenant. The NC is a one way covenant based entirely on promises without preformance of the second party such as the Sinaitic covenant. There's no if/then preformance relationship.

bugkiller
 
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Vine and Branches

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Don't sweat it brother... it's about the other people that read the post rarely about winning the argument. Post truth for those of us that appreciate it and don't worry about the rest... we got Grace for that. Amen
Thanks brother, may Adonai bless you as well! Shalom!
 
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