What is Torah?

[Vine and Branches]

The torah is the law that condemns to death. That law was paid in full and nailed to the cross by our Risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. law=works= death

Saved by GRACE!!

Reference?

 

[Vine and Branches]

I've been at this for a while. To accept what you've posted requires me to redefine words and even substitute your words for the words found in either the English or orignial language versions. You know what the hanging points are unless you only started talking to others about the Bible or religious activity.

A covenant like the NC dosen't fit your definition of covenant. The NC is a one way covenant based entirely on promises without preformance of the second party such as the Sinaitic covenant. There's no if/then preformance relationship.

bugkiller

It does. It is an agreement, if we believe in Messiah, we will join the covenant and be atoned for. If not, we are out of covenant and are damned to "Hinnom" or hell.

 

[BukiRob]

Galatians chapter 2
19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”[

If indeed you truly believe what Paul teaches and it is Christ who lives in you will you not walk as HE walked?

And HOW did Messiah walk? He steadfastly was obedient to the Torah.
By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

Many of you dont even recognize who Yeshua is. Yeshua said to him, “I AM THE LIVING GOD, The Way and The Truth and The Life; no man comes to my Father but by me alone.”

What else does scripture say is the way, the truth and life? The torah.

PS 119:105 Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path. ( it is directing the way showing us where to go)

Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp and the teaching is light; And reproofs for discipline are the way of life

PS 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And Your law is truth.
PS 119:160 The sum of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting.

John starts his gospel by declaring that In the beginning was the word... WHAT WORD? At the time John wrote this there was 1 and only 1 Word... TORAH
and the word was with G-d and the word WAS G-D!

Messiah IS the Torah become flesh who dwelt among us.

For those who are clearly anti Torah....

Please explain why James tells Paul in Acts 21 to go to the temple and take the vow (most likely the vow of the nazarene)

Acts 21:20And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22“What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23“Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. 25“But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.” 26Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

Some interesting things occurring here. First James states that Jewish believers in Messiah had become ZEALOUS FOR THE TORAH. What is of interest is that James does not correct this or in any way indicate it is error. In fact, he by he and the elders direction to Paul indicates THEY ARE RIGHT.

Notice that James tells Paul...and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

James is telling Paul that he needs to make it clear and unmistakable that Paul KEEPS THE LAW!

Paul does just that....

So if indeed Paul is teaching against the law why is he here in Jerusalem taking the vow??????

 

[bugkiller]

It does. It is an agreement, if we believe in Messiah, we will join the covenant and be atoned for. If not, we are out of covenant and are damned to "Hinnom" or hell.

And which covenant are you talking about?

bugkiller

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

If you insist on engaging in personal attacks, well, we can ask a mod to make it so you cant reply to me or anyone else for that matter.

Just pray for them... it's their branches bearing it's fruit.

 

[Meowzltov]

There is no such law. The Torah requires sacrifices be made in a tabernacle; it says nothing of Jerusalem and nothing of the Temple. At the time Moses wrote the Torah, Israel was wandering in the desert, and until the reign of King David, Jerusalem was in the hands of the Jebusites.

Excuse me? The Torah does indeed leave instructions on what to do for when the Israelites came into the land:
Deut 12:5-6
5 But you are to seek the place the Lord your God will choose from among all your tribes to put his Name there for his dwelling. To that place you must go; 6 there bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, what you have vowed to give and your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks.

 

[Wgw]

Excuse me? The Torah does indeed leave instructions on what to do for when the Israelites came into the land:
Deut 12:5-6
5 But you are to seek the place the Lord your God will choose from among all your tribes to put his Name there for his dwelling. To that place you must go; 6 there bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, what you have vowed to give and your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks.

That law says nothing about the Temple, or about Jerusalem; one could argue that the Temple being destroyed simply meant that it was no longer God's chosen place, and that He wished to dwell elsewhere, and the Jews should have setup a tabernacle somewhere else in Judea.

Indeed, the Tabernacle was not immediately in Jerusalem, and the Temple was not built for many centuries after Israel had taken posession of the Promised Land.

Thus, my contention is that the Rabinnical Jews violate the Torah and have violated the Torah by not erecting a temporary Tabernacle as close to Jerusalem as possible. There are no provisions in the Torah itself for not offering sacrifices.

This, of course, does not matter. The Torah is not an immutable divine law; it never applied to non-Jews (rather, they were subject to the Noachide Laws, something more or less ratified by the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15), and the Torah was frequently radically reinterpreted in sometimes contradictory ways by the Prophets and by Jesus Christ, acting with divine authority.

Compare Christian laws on dietary restrictions or adulterynwith the Torah for example.

I increasingly find myself wondering if "the Law" referred to by our Lord is not the Torah at all, but the Noachide Law; this is speculation on my part at lresent but something I intend to investigate.

 

[Meowzltov]

That law says nothing about the Temple, or about Jerusalem; one could argue that the Temple being destroyed simply meant that it was no longer God's chosen place, and that He wished to dwell elsewhere, and the Jews should have setup a tabernacle somewhere else in Judea.

Indeed, the Tabernacle was not immediately in Jerusalem, and the Temple was not built for many centuries after Israel had taken posession of the Promised Land.

Thus, my contention is that the Rabinnical Jews violate the Torah and have violated the Torah by not erecting a temporary Tabernacle as close to Jerusalem as possible. There are no provisions in the Torah itself for not offering sacrifices.

This, of course, does not matter. The Torah is not an immutable divine law; it never applied to non-Jews (rather, they were subject to the Noachide Laws, something more or less ratified by the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15), and the Torah was frequently radically reinterpreted in sometimes contradictory ways by the Prophets and by Jesus Christ, acting with divine authority.

Compare Christian laws on dietary restrictions or adulterynwith the Torah for example.

I increasingly find myself wondering if "the Law" referred to by our Lord is not the Torah at all, but the Noachide Law; this is speculation on my part at lresent but something I intend to investigate.

The point, which you missed the first time so I'm going to spell it out, is that when the Israelites came into the land, they were to look for THE place to offer sacrifice. THE = a single solitary place, not many places, not changing multiple places, but one fixed place. That place came to be the Temple Mount and no other place. Once the Temple was built in Jerusalem, NO OTHER PLACE WOULD DO ever again.

Deut 12:5-6
5 But you are to seek the place the Lord your God will choose from among all your tribes to put his Name there for his dwelling. To that place you must go; 6 there bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, what you have vowed to give and your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks.

 

[Wgw]

The point, which you missed the first time so I'm going to spell it out, is that when the Israelites came into the land, they were to look for THE place to offer sacrifice. THE = a single solitary place, not many places, not changing multiple places, but one fixed place. That place came to be the Temple Mount and no other place. Once the Temple was built in Jerusalem, NO OTHER PLACE WOULD DO ever again.

Deut 12:5-6
5 But you are to seek the place the Lord your God will choose from among all your tribes to put his Name there for his dwelling. To that place you must go; 6 there bring your burnt offerings and sacrifices, your tithes and special gifts, what you have vowed to give and your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks.

Please forgive me, I don't understand teo things in light of this:

1. Why was the tabernacle not immediately and permanently located in Jerusalem, which was held by the Jebusites until King David?
2. Why do the Karaites, on the basis of a sola scriptura interpretation of the Tanakh, disagree?
3. Why do the Beta Israel disagree?

Also, there is the issue of some modern religious scholars, who we probably both want to reject, who argue that the Bible contains evidence of multiple local temples and high places that were later consolidated in Jerusalem, that Zadok was a Jebusite, and that much of the Torah was written by Ezra to reflect the interpretation of the Babylonian diaspora. I feel piety compels me to reject these scholarly theories, but they do exist, and I feel that in the interests of a robust discussion with you I should mention them, by way of a footnote, as it were.

 

[Meowzltov]

• Why was the tabernacle not immediately and permanently located in Jerusalem, which was held by the Jebusites until King David?

• Why do the Karaites, on the basis of a sola scriptura interpretation of the Tanakh, disagree?

• Why do the Beta Israel disagree?

It simply took time for the Israelites to find the one place God intended for the Temple to be. Probably because He had ordained Solomon to build it.

Karaites, et al, are heretics. It's like asking why Jehovah's Witnesses disagree about the oneness of God, even though they use the same Bible. I don't give folks like Karaites or JW's the time of day.

 

[disciple1]

It simply took time for the Israelites to find the one place God intended for the Temple to be. Probably because He had ordained Solomon to build it.

Karaites, et al, are heretics. It's like asking why Jehovah's Witnesses disagree about the oneness of God, even though they use the same Bible. I don't give folks like Karaites or JW's the time of day.

1 Timothy chapter 1 verse7, 8
They want to be teachers of the law but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.
We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.
If you apply the law to someone else and not yourself, you won't get any benefit from it.
Here's what the proper use of the law will get you.
Galatians chapter 3 verses 24,25,23
So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.
Look how useless the law is if you apply it to other people, like the hypocrites do.


1 peter chapter 4
8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
galatians chapter 3 verse 12
The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, "The person who does these things will live by them."
Matthew chapter 21

32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness,27 and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors28 and the prostitutes29 did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent30 and believe him.
Luke chapter 3

10 “What should we do then?” the crowd asked.

11 John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”

Matthew chapter 25 verses 31-46
When the Son of Man comes" in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and got visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
I can't say enough what it says in 1 peter chapter 4 verse 8
1 peter chapter 4
8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.