What is Torah?

[Vine and Branches]

Note: If you want to debate this issue, please read through this commentary or just about enough to grasp the meaning of this thread. Thank you!


1 John 3:4 KJV - "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."


The Torah defines what is and is not sin.


Romans 3:23 KJV - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"


We have all sinned, or broken the Torah.


Psalm 1:2 KJV - "But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night."


Romans 7:22 KJV - "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:"


The Torah is delight.


Romans 7:12 KJV - "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."


The Torah is holiness, justness, and goodness.


Psalm 19:7 KJV - "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple."


The Torah is perfection.


Psalm 119:43 KJV - "And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments."


Psalm 119:142 KJV - "Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth."


The Torah is the truth and everlasting.


Psalm 119:44-45 KJV - "So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever. And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts."


The Torah is liberty and freedom.


Proverbs 4:2 KJV - "For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law."


The Torah is good doctrine.


2 Timothy 3:16 KJV - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

The Torah is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness because it is considered Scripture.


Deuteronomy 30:11-14 KJV - "For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."


Deuteronomy 32:45-47 KJV - "And Moses made an end of speaking all these words to all Israel: And he said unto them, Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law. For it is not a vain thing for you; because it is your life: and through this thing ye shall prolong your days in the land, whither ye go over Jordan to possess it."


The Torah is not difficult.


Therefore we must conclude that if someone believes that the Torah must not be kept although it commands us to do so, then it is not delightful, wickedness, imperfection, untruths, temporary, bondage, bad doctrine, not inspired by YHWH, not profitable for reproof and correction, not instruction in righteousness, and is difficult. But that would be a contradiction to Scripture. Since Scripture should not be contradictory, no verse can state that the Torah has all these negative characteristics. Yet, people often use verses out of context to fit their bias and doctrine. If a verse seems as if it is contradicting the characteristics of the Torah, it is being interpreted incorrectly. Most objections to Torah submission can be avoided when one enacts common sense. Ask yourself, “If the Torah is bondage, why is it called liberty and freedom in Psalm 119:44-45?” and other questions along those lines. If you present the Scriptures, who can say otherwise unless they object the Scriptures?

 

[disciple1]

Note: If you want to debate this issue, please read through this commentary or just about enough to grasp the meaning of this thread. Thank you!


1 John 3:4 KJV - "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."


The Torah defines what is and is not sin.


Romans 3:23 KJV - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"


We have all sinned, or broken the Torah.


Psalm 1:2 KJV - "But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night."


Romans 7:22 KJV - "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:"


The Torah is delight.


Romans 7:12 KJV - "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."


The Torah is holiness, justness, and goodness.


Psalm 19:7 KJV - "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple."


The Torah is perfection.


Psalm 119:43 KJV - "And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments."


Psalm 119:142 KJV - "Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth."


The Torah is the truth and everlasting.


Psalm 119:44-45 KJV - "So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever. And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts."


The Torah is liberty and freedom.


Proverbs 4:2 KJV - "For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law."


The Torah is good doctrine.


2 Timothy 3:16 KJV - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

The Torah is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness because it is considered Scripture.


Deuteronomy 30:11-14 KJV - "For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."


Deuteronomy 32:45-47 KJV - "And Moses made an end of speaking all these words to all Israel: And he said unto them, Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law. For it is not a vain thing for you; because it is your life: and through this thing ye shall prolong your days in the land, whither ye go over Jordan to possess it."


The Torah is not difficult.


Therefore we must conclude that if someone believes that the Torah must not be kept although it commands us to do so, then it is not delightful, wickedness, imperfection, untruths, temporary, bondage, bad doctrine, not inspired by YHWH, not profitable for reproof and correction, not instruction in righteousness, and is difficult. But that would be a contradiction to Scripture. Since Scripture should not be contradictory, no verse can state that the Torah has all these negative characteristics. Yet, people often use verses out of context to fit their bias and doctrine. If a verse seems as if it is contradicting the characteristics of the Torah, it is being interpreted incorrectly. Most objections to Torah submission can be avoided when one enacts common sense. Ask yourself, “If the Torah is bondage, why is it called liberty and freedom in Psalm 119:44-45?” and other questions along those lines. If you present the Scriptures, who can say otherwise unless they object the Scriptures?

But you don't keep the law no one ever has except Christ.
1 John chapter 1 verse 8
If anyone claims to be without sin they deceive themselves and the truth is not in them.
James chapter 2 verse 10
If anyone keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
Jeremiah chapter 22 verse 16
He defended the cause of the poor and needy,
and so all went well.
Is that not what it means to know me?”
declares the Lord.

 

[Vine and Branches]

But you don't keep the law no one ever has except Christ.
1 John chapter 1 verse 8
If anyone claims to be without sin they deceive themselves and the truth is not in them.
James chapter 2 verse 10
If anyone keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
Jeremiah chapter 22 verse 16
He defended the cause of the poor and needy,
and so all went well.
Is that not what it means to know me?”
declares the Lord.

I cannot keep Torah perfectly. That is why we needed a sacrifice. When we break Torah, it is sin (1 John 3:4). Just because we sin, does that mean we should give up and throw our hands in the air?

 

[bugkiller]

Note: If you want to debate this issue, please read through this commentary or just about enough to grasp the meaning of this thread. Thank you!


1 John 3:4 KJV - "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."


The Torah defines what is and is not sin.


Romans 3:23 KJV - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"


We have all sinned, or broken the Torah.


Psalm 1:2 KJV - "But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night."


Romans 7:22 KJV - "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:"


The Torah is delight.


Romans 7:12 KJV - "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."


The Torah is holiness, justness, and goodness.


Psalm 19:7 KJV - "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple."


The Torah is perfection.


Psalm 119:43 KJV - "And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments."


Psalm 119:142 KJV - "Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth."


The Torah is the truth and everlasting.


Psalm 119:44-45 KJV - "So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever. And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts."


The Torah is liberty and freedom.


Proverbs 4:2 KJV - "For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not my law."


The Torah is good doctrine.


2 Timothy 3:16 KJV - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

The Torah is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness because it is considered Scripture.


Deuteronomy 30:11-14 KJV - "For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."


Deuteronomy 32:45-47 KJV - "And Moses made an end of speaking all these words to all Israel: And he said unto them, Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law. For it is not a vain thing for you; because it is your life: and through this thing ye shall prolong your days in the land, whither ye go over Jordan to possess it."


The Torah is not difficult.


Therefore we must conclude that if someone believes that the Torah must not be kept although it commands us to do so, then it is not delightful, wickedness, imperfection, untruths, temporary, bondage, bad doctrine, not inspired by YHWH, not profitable for reproof and correction, not instruction in righteousness, and is difficult. But that would be a contradiction to Scripture. Since Scripture should not be contradictory, no verse can state that the Torah has all these negative characteristics. Yet, people often use verses out of context to fit their bias and doctrine. If a verse seems as if it is contradicting the characteristics of the Torah, it is being interpreted incorrectly. Most objections to Torah submission can be avoided when one enacts common sense. Ask yourself, “If the Torah is bondage, why is it called liberty and freedom in Psalm 119:44-45?” and other questions along those lines. If you present the Scriptures, who can say otherwise unless they object the Scriptures?

I would like to see you parse all your quotes and define all pronouns.

bugkiller

 

[Vine and Branches]

I would like to see you parse all your quotes and define all pronouns.

bugkiller

Only if you read through it. If you did I will, but the scriptures are very self-explanatory.

 

[disciple1]

I cannot keep Torah perfectly. That is why we needed a sacrifice. When we break Torah, it is sin (1 John 3:4). Just because we sin, does that mean we should give up and throw our hands in the air?

Look at these verses and see the law was never meant to be kept.
Galatians chapter 3 verse 24,25,23 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith now that faith has come we are no longer under the supervision of the law before this faith came we were held prisoner's by the law locked up until faith should be revealed.

 

[Vine and Branches]

Look at these verses and see the law was never meant to be kept.
Galatians chapter 3 verse 24,25,23 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith now that faith has come we are no longer under the supervision of the law before this faith came we were held prisoner's by the law locked up until faith should be revealed.

I actually made a commentary about Galatians 3 here.

 

[disciple1]

I actually made a commentary about Galatians 3 here.

I read what you wrote, but like I said you don't obey the law.
Galatians chapter 4 verse 21-31
Tell me you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? For it is written that Abraham had two sons,one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.
These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written: "be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband. Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. But what does the Scripture say? Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Look at these verses and see the law was never meant to be kept.
Galatians chapter 3 verse 24,25,23 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith now that faith has come we are no longer under the supervision of the law before this faith came we were held prisoner's by the law locked up until faith should be revealed.

What is your need of Christ if their is no condemnation of sin? What shows us that we have sinned? Sin is the transgression of the Law.

 

[disciple1]

What is your need of Christ if their is no condemnation of sin? What shows us that we have sinned? Sin is the transgression of the Law.

We need Jesus's blood to make us holy, but we also need to love most Christians teach hate of gay's and abortion, and it also says judge nothing before the appointed time.

I believe the spirit is love, because no one but Christ ever obeyed the law, don't you realize all your sin or are you blind.
Romans chapter 4 verses 13-15
It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

 

[Bob S]

I cannot keep Torah perfectly. That is why we needed a sacrifice. When we break Torah, it is sin (1 John 3:4). Just because we sin, does that mean we should give up and throw our hands in the air?

John defines what sin is for the Christian and it is not "keeping" Sabbath or feast days or new moons or any of the other rituals given only to the Iraelites.
1Jn3:
19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

All the moral aspect of the Torah are included in the law of loving one another. Morality does not change my friends, covenants did change. It is all part of the story of redemption.

 

[Vine and Branches]

John defines what sin is for the Christian and it is not "keeping" Sabbath or feast days or new moons or any of the other rituals given only to the Iraelites.
1Jn3:
19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

All the moral aspect of the Torah are included in the law of loving one another. Morality does not change my friends, covenants did change. It is all part of the story of redemption.

Where in the Scriptures does it separate the Torah into "moral" law? There is one Torah.

Exodus 12:49 KJV - "One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you."

Numbers 15:16 KJV - "One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you."

 

[zippy2]

I read what you wrote, but like I said you don't obey the law.
Galatians chapter 4 verse 21-31
Tell me you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? For it is written that Abraham had two sons,one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.
These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written: "be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband. Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. But what does the Scripture say? Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

Sarah's son is the father of the Hebrews, not the church. His name was Isaac.
Hagar's son is the father of many nations. His name was Ishmael.
The simple explanation is the right explanation.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

We need Jesus's blood to make us holy, but we also need to love most Christians teach hate of gay's and abortion, and it also says judge nothing before the appointed time.

If we are justified at our conversion and made righteous through Christ's blood, then why do we need continued Grace? Unless we still sin sometimes... but how do we know that we have sinned? The Law shows us our continued need of the Saviour and His atoning blood.

 

[disciple1]

Sarah's son is the father of the Hebrews, not the church. His name was Isaac.
Hagar's son is the father of many nations. His name was Ishmael.
The simple explanation is the right explanation.

No one but Christ ever obeyed the law, you don't I don't the pope doesn't no one does.
1 John chapter 4
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Sarah's son is the father of the Hebrews, not the church. His name was Isaac.
Hagar's son is the father of many nations. His name was Ishmael.
The simple explanation is the right explanation.

I thought the promise to Abraham was that he will be a blessing to all nations not just the Israelites?

 

[zippy2]

No one but Christ ever obeyed the law, you don't I don't the pope doesn't no one does.
1 John chapter 4
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

I agree with that for sure.

 

[Bob S]

Where in the Scriptures does it separate the Torah into "moral" law? There is one Torah.

Exodus 12:49 KJV - "One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you."

Numbers 15:16 KJV - "One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you."

It doesn't, we do. So tell us is there a difference between how we treat our fellow man and how we worship days? I believe there is, one teaches us to respect our fellow man and God which becomes our moral duty and the other teaches us how to observe days, weeks and years which are ritual. Both are moral in the sense that none are immoral.

Morality never changes, rituals do change. You law thumpers cannot send your crops and animals to the storehouse as the tithe required by the Torah. Shall we go on as to the differences from what the Israelites were required to do and what the Messianic church does? It would seem that you have modified many things that have become the new rituals required by some guru not the law of the new covenant.

 

[Sophrosyne]

This thread is a sham, in that you aren't defining what the Torah is but rather just advertising it like a used car salesman does. Myself I won't debate people who use the word "Torah" because the way it is used they tend to be rather vague and unspecific. I find those who want to promote the Law upon Christians like to be vague when it comes to thing often switching meanings without adherence to proper context when it suits them.

One definition of Torah is the first 5 books of the Bible, another is instruction, yet we don't see these definitions here in the thread we just see "oooo how wonderful the Torah is". If you want to debate, using the "Torah" as a topic is like trying to use Jello to build a skyscraper.

 

[zippy2]

I thought the promise to Abraham was that he will be a blessing to all nations not just the Israelites?

Absolutely. But when we get to Abraham's sons there is a bit of a shift of who gets what. Again, a shift when Esau and Jacob are born to Isaac. Everyone is blessed but in different ways.