• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Is the Torah bondage?


  • Total voters
    10

EastCoastRemnant

I Must Decrease That He May Increase
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2010
7,665
1,505
Nova Scotia
✟210,609.00
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Well, someone needs to set you straight. I guess since I know I thought it my duty to explain it to you. Now you know.

Looks like there's a new Sherrif in town y'all... listen to the man, he said he can set us straight. Disregard that he exhibits an angry spirit interacting with certain members on these forums, he can be trusted... his fruits speak for themselves.
What's the word rabbi?

God killed a man for touching the Ark. That was not part of the 10.
Actually it was... God said to have no gods above him... Uzza disbelieved God and therefore put his reason above God's Word. That is idolatry...

I had asked you in another thread to name any sin and we can relate it to the Decalogue to show you that the ten words encompassed all of God's moral Law and character.
 
Upvote 0

EastCoastRemnant

I Must Decrease That He May Increase
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2010
7,665
1,505
Nova Scotia
✟210,609.00
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Yeah I tend to ignore posts that rely on the word Torah because it is so ambiguous that they can use it to mask all sorts of vague doctrine and in a debate it is like a greased pig you can grab onto it and get a good bite.
Maybe because it's impossible to effectively argue against absolute truth?
 
Upvote 0

disciple1

Newbie
Aug 1, 2012
2,173
548
✟70,375.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Well, someone needs to set you straight. I guess since I know I thought it my duty to explain it to you. Now you know.



According to God? Where did He say it was a moral issue?



God killed a man for touching the Ark. That was not part of the 10.


What does this have to do with being a ritual law or a moral law?
You drive people away from God by saying to obey the law, when you don't obey the law, that's called a hypocrite.
Romans chapter 9 verses 30-Romans chapter 10 verse 4
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written: See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame. Brothers my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are Zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own the did not submit to God's righteousness, Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wgw
Upvote 0

Bob S

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 5, 2015
4,947
2,355
90
Union County, TN
✟834,411.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Looks like there's a new Sherrif in town y'all... listen to the man, he said he can set us straight. Disregard that he exhibits an angry spirit interacting with certain members on these forums, he can be trusted... his fruits speak for themselves.
What's the word rabbi?


Actually it was... God said to have no gods above him... Uzza disbelieved God and therefore put his reason above God's Word. That is idolatry...

I had asked you in another thread to name any sin and we can relate it to the Decalogue to show you that the ten words encompassed all of God's moral Law and character.
Thank you for the appointment. Your response is what happens when you do not have an answer, you go into attack mode calling me rabbi and having an angry spirit. Are you assembling your vigilante group together? When does presenting the truth become attacking? The post was not addressed to you, so why did you use the word us?

You are in violation my friend, but since I too have been in violation and was granted grace I pray you will be granted grace too.

Why not stop all the pettiness and discuss the issues. We all claim to be Christians and yet posts like the one I am addressing is meant to be smear.

Of course you cannot hurt me and I do consider the source, so if you want to go ahead and use smear just know from now on you will be ignored as far as response to your pettiness.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Wgw
Upvote 0

Bob S

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 5, 2015
4,947
2,355
90
Union County, TN
✟834,411.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You drive people away from God by saying to obey the law, when you don't obey the law, that's called a hypocrite.
Romans chapter 9 verses 30-Romans chapter 10 verse 4
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written: See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame. Brothers my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are Zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own the did not submit to God's righteousness, Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Hi D1, I guess you have read my posts in hast and do not realize that my understanding is that Christians are not under the Mosaic laws. We are under the new covenant. Grace without the works of the Mosaic law is what I believe.

I do believe what James wrote: "Faith without works is dead". James was writing about doing good works toward our fellow man and not works of the law. His writings fit well with the new covenant. Just so you know I do feel a need to debate law thumpers and sometimes play what we call the devil's advocate. This may have caused you to think I thump law and that is as far away from the truth as I can get.

Keep up the good work proclaiming the true Gospel.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wgw
Upvote 0

Meowzltov

Freylekher Yid
Aug 3, 2014
18,606
4,466
64
Southern California
✟67,237.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Others
So, who in this thread has performed the animal sacrifices required under the Torah? Hmmm?
One of the Laws is not to sacrifice anywhere but the required place (which is the Temple in Jerusalem). By not making sacrifices, we are keeping the Law.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SAAN
Upvote 0

EastCoastRemnant

I Must Decrease That He May Increase
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2010
7,665
1,505
Nova Scotia
✟210,609.00
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Thank you for the appointment. Your response is what happens when you do not have an answer, you go into attack mode calling me rabbi and having an angry spirit. Are you assembling your vigilante group together? When does presenting the truth become attacking? The post was not addressed to you, so why did you use the word us?

You are in violation my friend, but since I too have been in violation and was granted grace I pray you will be granted grace too.

Why not stop all the pettiness and discuss the issues. We all claim to be Christians and yet posts like the one I am addressing is meant to be smear.

Of course you cannot hurt me and I do consider the source, so if you want to go ahead and use smear just know from now on you will be ignored as far as response to your pettiness.
Yes you are right, of course. Forgive me for my sarcasm, it is one of my unChristlike spirits that I struggle with.
 
Upvote 0

disciple1

Newbie
Aug 1, 2012
2,173
548
✟70,375.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Hi D1, I guess you have read my posts in hast and do not realize that my understanding is that Christians are not under the Mosaic laws. We are under the new covenant. Grace without the works of the Mosaic law is what I believe.

I do believe what James wrote: "Faith without works is dead". James was writing about doing good works toward our fellow man and not works of the law. His writings fit well with the new covenant. Just so you know I do feel a need to debate law thumpers and sometimes play what we call the devil's advocate. This may have caused you to think I thump law and that is as far away from the truth as I can get.

Keep up the good work proclaiming the true Gospel.
I just want to check with you because I don't think I've found anyone who agrees with me, I believe we don't need to keep any law new testament or old, I believe all we need to do is love.
1 peter chapter 4 verse 8
above all love each other deeply my brothers because love covers a multitude of sins.
 
Upvote 0

SAAN

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
2,034
489
Atlanta, GA
✟95,985.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So, who in this thread has performed the animal sacrifices required under the Torah? Hmmm?
Hebrews 10
Animal Sacrifices Insufficient
10 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
 
Upvote 0

Wgw

Pray For Brussels!
May 24, 2015
4,304
2,075
✟15,117.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Conservative
Hebrews 10
Animal Sacrifices Insufficient
10 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

Indeed. Animal sacrifices are in the Torah, however.

So thus, Hebrews 10 attests to the fact that the Torah is, in terms of ceremonial law, like animal sacrifices, superceded.
 
Upvote 0

Wgw

Pray For Brussels!
May 24, 2015
4,304
2,075
✟15,117.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Conservative
One of the Laws is not to sacrifice anywhere but the required place (which is the Temple in Jerusalem). By not making sacrifices, we are keeping the Law.

Actually, the required place could be the Tabernacle. Nowhere in the Five Books of Moses is the Temple even mentioned, as it did not exist when they were written. Indeed, the Samaritans, who have basically the same Torah, with a spurious interpolation regarding Mount Gerizim, continue to offer animal sacrifices.

There is nothing in the Old Testament which would preclude a kohanim from officiating over a valid animal sacrifice, which indeed, is why some Karaites are actively seeking to obtain a red heiffer so as to resume sacrifices.

The idea that animal sacrifices cannot be offered in Judaism since the destruction of the Second Temple, and the related idea that the Third Temple will not be built until the coming of the Messiah (which not all Jews agree on, hence the efforts to build it now) stem from Rabinnical Judaism; they represent the response of the Pharisees to the destruction of the Temple and the depopulation of Jerusalem by the Romans, events which facilitated a complete Pharisaical dominance over those Jews who did not convert to Christianity (a great many Jews did convert), which would remain unbroken until the emergence of the Karaite movement.

With, of course, the notable exceptions of certain geographically isolated Jewish populations, like the Beta Israel of Ethiopia and some Indian Jewish communities which later became Rabinnized (I think the evidence is clear that most of the Kochin Jews became Nasrani Christians in the 1st-3rd centuries, and the Bene Israel were on the other hand too remote and obscure to become subject to the Sephardicization which later radically reshaped Kochin Jewry).

The Beta Israel are increasingly subject to rabinnical influence, but continue to have priests, and animal sacrifices. I consider this fact by itself the most compelling refutation of the idea that the Temple is required to have sacrifices; the Beta Israel are halakhically Jewish, unlike the Samaritans, and represent a tradition of Judaism which thrived outside of the oppressive influence of Pharisaism.

~

Of course, animal sacrifices or not, none of this is by itself efficacious. I pray that the Jews will be saved according to God's special grace, however, at present, animal sacrifices of the Beta Israel and the davening and torah study of the Charedim are equally lacking in grace, on their own terms. The surest way for any Jew to obtain salvation is to receive baptism and partake of the Eucharist, obtaining the fulfilment of the Torah from the hand of the Messiah, God incarnate.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Vine and Branches

Messianic-believer
Mar 5, 2016
67
17
United States
✟15,324.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
I read what you wrote, but like I said you don't obey the law.
Galatians chapter 4 verse 21-31
Tell me you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? For it is written that Abraham had two sons,one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.
These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written: "be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband. Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. But what does the Scripture say? Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
If you actually read it word for word, you would know what I would say.
 
Upvote 0

Vine and Branches

Messianic-believer
Mar 5, 2016
67
17
United States
✟15,324.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Indeed. Animal sacrifices are in the Torah, however.

So thus, Hebrews 10 attests to the fact that the Torah is, in terms of ceremonial law, like animal sacrifices, superceded.
N
This thread is a sham, in that you aren't defining what the Torah is but rather just advertising it like a used car salesman does. Myself I won't debate people who use the word "Torah" because the way it is used they tend to be rather vague and unspecific. I find those who want to promote the Law upon Christians like to be vague when it comes to thing often switching meanings without adherence to proper context when it suits them.

One definition of Torah is the first 5 books of the Bible, another is instruction, yet we don't see these definitions here in the thread we just see "oooo how wonderful the Torah is". If you want to debate, using the "Torah" as a topic is like trying to use Jello to build a skyscraper.

So are you saying that the YHWH put the Israelites into bondage? Torah is simply the instructions of YHWH to his people. Some are for Levites, women, men, children, farmers, and etc. Some commands he gave to specific people like Noah and Moses. That is Torah. What other "law" could David be referring to?
 
Upvote 0

EastCoastRemnant

I Must Decrease That He May Increase
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2010
7,665
1,505
Nova Scotia
✟210,609.00
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Indeed. Animal sacrifices are in the Torah, however.

So thus, Hebrews 10 attests to the fact that the Torah is, in terms of ceremonial law, like animal sacrifices, superceded.
Not superceded but fulfilled with a better sacrifice...

Heb 7:26-27
For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
 
Upvote 0

Sophrosyne

Let Your Light Shine.. Matt 5:16
Jun 21, 2007
163,215
64,198
In God's Amazing Grace
✟910,522.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Its claimed by them this part of the law was done away with while they also post Mat 5:17-18 saying no jot or tittle of the has passed. HMMMMM!

bugkiller
It sort of reminds me of a big facade that looks like a mansion to hide an outhouse.
 
Upvote 0

Vine and Branches

Messianic-believer
Mar 5, 2016
67
17
United States
✟15,324.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Its claimed by them this part of the law was done away with while they also post Mat 5:17-18 saying no jot or tittle of the has passed. HMMMMM!

bugkiller
It is not done away with. I have already explained this. For example, when Israel was in exile they could not perform sacrifices. The sin sacrifices is not "done away with" but it is now substituted by a different sacrifice. Just like the Levites, they were substituted by Malki-tzedek. Here is another example, let's say there are no vehicles in the U.S., therefore no one can brake speed limits. Is that law "removed"? No, it is simply impossible to do since there is a certain condition that must be met.
 
Upvote 0

Meowzltov

Freylekher Yid
Aug 3, 2014
18,606
4,466
64
Southern California
✟67,237.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Others
Actually, the required place could be the Tabernacle
It said that when we came into the land there would be one designated place. That place came to be the Temple in Jerusalem. So NOW there is NO OTHER PLACE. No temple, no sacrifices. We Jews must do as Hosea the prophet said to do when there was no temple and let the words of our lips (prayers) be as bullocks (sacrifices). Hosea 14:2 In the meantime, Jews are KEEPING THE LAW by not rendering sacrifice in a location forbidden by Torah.

Christians of course participate in Christ's sacrifice on the Cross each time they participate in the holy Eucharist.
 
Upvote 0