I must seriously disagree with your characterization of the Middle Ages. It's easy to talk of vague spirituality and mysticism, but it was the Reformation and Renaissance scholarship and Spirit-led study that unlocked the Word of God for so many.That's the myth of Protestantism for ya.. that the middle ages was some horrible period of time full of error and dead religion. In reality, what Luther lived through was a period of Renaissance humanist anxiety over religion- a period of decline and conciliar failures. His spirituality in many ways owes alot to the best of the late medieval Rhineland mystics. He took medieval spirituality and made it comprehensible to ordinary people.
I have a good book on this subject by a Swedish Lutheran scholar, called Theology of the Heart that talks about this often overlooked side of Luther.
I must seriously disagree with your characterization of the Middle Ages. It's easy to talk of vague spirituality and mysticism, but it was the Reformation and Renaissance scholarship and Spirit-led study that unlocked the Word of God for so many.
What I said is pretty well standard thinking among Bible believing Protestants and I completely disagree with your Momonism linkage there.That sounds more like Mormonism honestly (and particularly distressing to think that the Spirit only lead some people to the truth after 1500 centuries). On the other hand, Lutheranism can at least claim some kind of continuity with the historic Church without claiming to have this "Mormon" ecclessiology.
What I said is pretty well standard thinking among Bible believing Protestants and I completely disagree with your Momonism linkage there.
Again, I don't agree with your reading of Luther. His conversion to the Gospel of Christ came because of his encounter with the Word of God directly and in his discovery of relying in faith directly on the merits of Christ only, rather than the supposed merits of his own or ecclesiastical ones. It's best to be politely frank and recognize that on this we totally disagree.OK, I'm not Protestant though, and never claimed to be except when using it as a convention. Protestantism as a negative principle really described nothing about your beliefs, it's not a confession of faith.
I would never have believed in justification sola fide if there weren't support for it in Church history. Neither did Luther or Melanchthon. They realized early on they had to show that their ideas were not fanciful interpretations previously unknown. They quoted fathers of the early church and medieval doctors such as Aquinas or Clairvaux.
In this way, Luther's ideas are a product of a development in thought within the catholic tradition, not a revolution or new revelation. This is another reason why Lutheranism is not Protestant. We believe in the historic Church.
Again, I don't agree with your reading of Luther. His conversion to the Gospel of Christ came because of his encounter with the Word of God directly and in his discovery of relying in faith directly on the merits of Christ only, rather than the supposed merits of his own or ecclesiastical ones. It's best to be politely frank and recognize that on this we totally disagree.
I think you are using that phrase in a derogatory way, but I don't take offence, because the believer must be prepared for the offence of the cross. Any reading of Luther's conversion, in which he understood the difference between law and gospel and how receiving the righteousness of God by faith became a door to paradise for him, clearly shows Luther did not believe that he was born again through being sprinkled as an infant.Modern peitistic evangelicals such as yourself focus on the tower experience as evidence of "conversion", but Luther would never have pointed to that as the moment that Christ claimed him as his own, he would point to baptism.
In fact Luther discouraged people from focusing excessively on spiritual experiences, and always pointed people to the Word operative in the Sacraments as proof of their election in Christ.
I think you are using that phrase in a derogatory way, but I don't take offence, because the believer must be prepared for the offence of the cross. Any reading of Luther's conversion, in which he understood the difference between law and gospel and how receiving the righteousness of God by faith became a door to paradise for him, clearly shows Luther did not believe that he was born again through being sprinkled as an infant.
If you read what Luther actually said when he was converted to Christ, he clearly didn't think it was some pleasant, optional experience, but actually the time when truly believed.Actually, he did. Where do you think Lutherans get our belief in the efficacy of the sacraments from, if not from Luther himself?
Lutherans believe it is not merely water, but water joined to God's Word that is effective.
Don't entertain doubt. You haven't led anyone anywhere. Our Lord is THE leader, the guide, the inspiration. The Holy Spirit spoke to you, resulting in your salvation. Praise God for you and your family!It's their belief that they are the One True Church and there is no salvation outside of it. I don't believe that, personally. But what bothers me is, what if they're right and I led people from the only faith that saves? I don't believe I did, but since I literally led people from the ancient church that teaches this, my mind naturally wanders.
If you read what Luther actually said when he was converted to Christ, he clearly didn't think it was some pleasant, optional experience, but actually the time when truly believed.
I don't know where else to place this thread. If I place it in the Lutheran forum, by people are going to tell me that I'm correct by default; if I place it in the Catholic forum, people are going to tell me that I'm incorrect by default. I'm also not sure of what advice, exactly, that I'm looking for, but nevertheless...
My wife was raised in a strict Catholic family. Ideally, she was to marry a Catholic and have a Catholic family. But then she met me, an atheist at the time. After awhile, she gave up her faith because she followed my lead and (poor) logic on how religion is stupid, fake, and irrational. But then several years ago, at random, out of the blue, with no warning or rational explanation, Jesus came to me in the most vivid dream I have ever had, and he told me, "Michael, forgiveness is yours; just believe and ask." I immediately woke up in sweat and tears and gave my life to him right then and there. I soon became a Lutheran, and my wife followed my lead, abandoning her Catholic upbringing and fully embracing Lutheranism. Throughout these years I have become exceptionally educated on Scripture and Theology, and my faith is radical, for better or worse, as is her faith. I plan to go to Concordia Seminary soon.
A couple of years ago, my mother-in-law began attending our church. It was a slow process for her, but she abandoned Catholicism and was confirmed as a Lutheran of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod a few weeks ago. She is now working on her own mother and showing her own life long Catholic mother the errors and additions of the Catholic Church.
Lutheranism feels so 'right'. I don't believe that Jesus would personally come to me, a militant atheist not far from being Saul himself in regards to my hatred of Christians and Christ, and save me, in the process saving my family, and then let us go astray and worship him in a false way, in a false faith. We must be right where he wants us. To me this is logical - at least that is my belief.
My wife and I now have 4 children, who are all Lutherans as well. Here's what keeps me up at night sometimes: What if - just what if - Catholicism is correct (I don't believe that it is), that it is the One True Church, and I, being the head of my family, have lead these people who were once part of Christ's Church (assuming now that the Catholic Church is his One True Church) astray? What if I intruded into their lives, and I lead a complete family away from Christ? It's very, very unlikely that they would have ceased to be Catholics without having met me. It would have been better for me to have never been born, or to have had a millstone fastened around my neck and been cast into the sea, if that's the case.
Final Note: No anti-Catholicism. That does nothing for us here. We are not anti-Catholic. We respect their faith and traditions. We simply believe, like Luther, that they are completely and utterly wrong about some things, and we can't accept that. I don't need piles of Scripture proving the Church is some beast, that it's wrong, or pagan references. Thank you.
I don't know where else to place this thread. If I place it in the Lutheran forum, by people are going to tell me that I'm correct by default; if I place it in the Catholic forum, people are going to tell me that I'm incorrect by default..
"I learned to distinguish between the righteousness of the law and the righteousness of the gospel. I lacked nothing before this except that I made no distinction between the law and the gospel. I regarded both as the same thing and held that there was no difference between Christ and Moses except the times in which they lived and their degrees of perfection. But when I discovered the proper distinction—namely, that the law is one thing and the gospel is another—I made myself free." Martin LutherI know what he said, but it's important to remember Luther was prone to hyperbole and was not laying down a systematic ordo salutis in his description of his experience.
Luther's joy in the tower was discovering he had already been saved.
Hmm if catholicm is completely correct than many born again christians, like myself and others on here who arent catholic, will need to start buying statues of mary and giving a whole lot of money to the vatican. And will have to shut down our places of fellowship and all join the catholic church and those of us who are single will have to be nuns and monks. And instead of praying to our Father through Jesus we might all have to learn latin and recite rosaries and start wearing crucifixes. And instead of being forgiven we wil, have to stop having assurance of salvation and keep going to a priest and reading the catholic catechism instead of the Bible. We might even have to give up our Bibles since they dont have the extra books in them.I don't know where else to place this thread. If I place it in the Lutheran forum, by people are going to tell me that I'm correct by default; if I place it in the Catholic forum, people are going to tell me that I'm incorrect by default. I'm also not sure of what advice, exactly, that I'm looking for, but nevertheless...
My wife was raised in a strict Catholic family. Ideally, she was to marry a Catholic and have a Catholic family. But then she met me, an atheist at the time. After awhile, she gave up her faith because she followed my lead and (poor) logic on how religion is stupid, fake, and irrational. But then several years ago, at random, out of the blue, with no warning or rational explanation, Jesus came to me in the most vivid dream I have ever had, and he told me, "Michael, forgiveness is yours; just believe and ask." I immediately woke up in sweat and tears and gave my life to him right then and there. I soon became a Lutheran, and my wife followed my lead, abandoning her Catholic upbringing and fully embracing Lutheranism. Throughout these years I have become exceptionally educated on Scripture and Theology, and my faith is radical, for better or worse, as is her faith. I plan to go to Concordia Seminary soon.
A couple of years ago, my mother-in-law began attending our church. It was a slow process for her, but she abandoned Catholicism and was confirmed as a Lutheran of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod a few weeks ago. She is now working on her own mother and showing her own life long Catholic mother the errors and additions of the Catholic Church.
Lutheranism feels so 'right'. I don't believe that Jesus would personally come to me, a militant atheist not far from being Saul himself in regards to my hatred of Christians and Christ, and save me, in the process saving my family, and then let us go astray and worship him in a false way, in a false faith. We must be right where he wants us. To me this is logical - at least that is my belief.
My wife and I now have 4 children, who are all Lutherans as well. Here's what keeps me up at night sometimes: What if - just what if - Catholicism is correct (I don't believe that it is), that it is the One True Church, and I, being the head of my family, have lead these people who were once part of Christ's Church (assuming now that the Catholic Church is his One True Church) astray? What if I intruded into their lives, and I lead a complete family away from Christ? It's very, very unlikely that they would have ceased to be Catholics without having met me. It would have been better for me to have never been born, or to have had a millstone fastened around my neck and been cast into the sea, if that's the case.
Final Note: No anti-Catholicism. That does nothing for us here. We are not anti-Catholic. We respect their faith and traditions. We simply believe, like Luther, that they are completely and utterly wrong about some things, and we can't accept that. I don't need piles of Scripture proving the Church is some beast, that it's wrong, or pagan references. Thank you.
Hmm if catholicm is completely correct than many born again christians, like myself and others on here who arent catholic, will need to start buying statues of mary and giving a whole lot of money to the vatican.
False. They don't teach that you have to have statues or give money. In fact, many Protestant churches guilt trip their members into 10% tithe.
And will have to shut down our places of fellowship and all join the catholic church and those of us who are single will have to be nuns and monks.
False. You don't have to be a monk or a nun if you're single. In fact, it is a distinct calling, and one in which they urge caution and discernment before making the decision.
And instead of praying to our Father through Jesus we might all have to learn latin and recite rosaries and start wearing crucifixes.
False. You can pray to the Father in Jesus' name. Praying to God or asking Saints for intercession isn't an either or. The Rosary is encouraged, not commanded or a must. You don't have to learn Latin. Most Catholics do not know Latin. You don't have to wear a Crucifix. People choose to wear them as a symbol of faith. I wear them.
And instead of being forgiven we wil, have to stop having assurance of salvation and keep going to a priest and reading the catholic catechism instead of the Bible.
True. You do have to keep going to Confession and be weary of mortal sin. This is terrible. The Bible is not below the Catechism. The Bible is encouraged for the laity to read and study. It wasn't so in the past, but is now.
We might even have to give up our Bibles since they dont have the extra books in them.
They do have approved and disapproved translations. Most Christians, not just Catholics, have and read the deutercanonical books. Luther's Bible had them, ans Lutherans today still hold that, while they're not divinely inspired scripture, they are valuable to read.
No anti-Catholicism. That does nothing for us here. We are not anti-Catholic. We respect their faith and traditions. We simply believe, like Luther, that they are completely and utterly wrong about some things, and we can't accept that.
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