What if I've lead them all astray?

[faroukfarouk]

You're just hiding behind anti-intellectualism now... and missing my point entirely.

It's a quote from Galatians 5.11, written by Paul who was actually rather well educated in Scripture, but did not rely on his education but rather entirely on the grace of God.

You and I are not on the same page; I think we should just admit this.

 

[FireDragon76]

It's a quote from Galatians 5.11, written by Paul who was actually rather well educated in Scripture, but did not rely on his education but rather on the grace of God.

Sorry, I can't agree with your tone here. Learning is a gift from God. To despise it is not wise. And I know what the Bible says as well, in Proverb 26:4, so I guess I will end my discussion with you there.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I will end my discussion with you there.

We are in complete agreement now.

 

[Gabriel Anton]

I don't know where else to place this thread. If I place it in the Lutheran forum, by people are going to tell me that I'm correct by default; if I place it in the Catholic forum, people are going to tell me that I'm incorrect by default. I'm also not sure of what advice, exactly, that I'm looking for, but nevertheless...

My wife was raised in a strict Catholic family. Ideally, she was to marry a Catholic and have a Catholic family. But then she met me, an atheist at the time. After awhile, she gave up her faith because she followed my lead and (poor) logic on how religion is stupid, fake, and irrational. But then several years ago, at random, out of the blue, with no warning or rational explanation, Jesus came to me in the most vivid dream I have ever had, and he told me, "Michael, forgiveness is yours; just believe and ask." I immediately woke up in sweat and tears and gave my life to him right then and there. I soon became a Lutheran, and my wife followed my lead, abandoning her Catholic upbringing and fully embracing Lutheranism. Throughout these years I have become exceptionally educated on Scripture and Theology, and my faith is radical, for better or worse, as is her faith. I plan to go to Concordia Seminary soon.

A couple of years ago, my mother-in-law began attending our church. It was a slow process for her, but she abandoned Catholicism and was confirmed as a Lutheran of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod a few weeks ago. She is now working on her own mother and showing her own life long Catholic mother the errors and additions of the Catholic Church.

Lutheranism feels so 'right'. I don't believe that Jesus would personally come to me, a militant atheist not far from being Saul himself in regards to my hatred of Christians and Christ, and save me, in the process saving my family, and then let us go astray and worship him in a false way, in a false faith. We must be right where he wants us. To me this is logical - at least that is my belief.

My wife and I now have 4 children, who are all Lutherans as well. Here's what keeps me up at night sometimes: What if - just what if - Catholicism is correct (I don't believe that it is), that it is the One True Church, and I, being the head of my family, have lead these people who were once part of Christ's Church (assuming now that the Catholic Church is his One True Church) astray? What if I intruded into their lives, and I lead a complete family away from Christ? It's very, very unlikely that they would have ceased to be Catholics without having met me. It would have been better for me to have never been born, or to have had a millstone fastened around my neck and been cast into the sea, if that's the case.

Final Note: No anti-Catholicism. That does nothing for us here. We are not anti-Catholic. We respect their faith and traditions. We simply believe, like Luther, that they are completely and utterly wrong about some things, and we can't accept that. I don't need piles of Scripture proving the Church is some beast, that it's wrong, or pagan references. Thank you.

Peace be with you.

In the Gospels, Jesus Himself does give room for Believers to manoeuvre in terms of watching out for certain religious teachings.

That said, in terms of Judgment, if the spiritual outcome of your family is improved by them leaving the Catholic Church, then you have done them a service. But if their spiritual outcome deteriorated by them leaving the Catholic Church, then you have done them a disservice.

But the Priests themselves in the Catholic Church also bear responsibility for their flock. So if your family left the Catholic Church and the Priests don't really care too much about them to fight for them to remain in the Catholic Church then they also share some responsibilities for the blame.

Maybe you're such a Splendid and Gracious Example of a Christian that you did your Lutheran Church a great service by bringing in poorly tendered flock from the Catholic Church to be tended properly in the Lutheran Church.

Don't worry too much about it. Concentrate on loving them and God. All things work out well for those who love God in the end.

God bless you.

 

[Daniel9v9]

Forgive me - just a very simple thought; if we agree on the creeds (which both Lutherans and Catholics do) this becomes a non-issue.

I'm well aware of our differences and practices, and the implications of our teachings, but at the end of the day, I don't think there is any cause for alarm or worry providing you and your family are baptized into Christ in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and believe in God. Stay where you are if you feel it's sound doctrine, or seek out a Catholic church if you feel burdened and compelled to do so. Don't be swayed by every wind of doctrine and be critical to popular opinion - look into the writings of the church fathers. Above all, through prayer and reading of Holy Scripture, I'm confident God will comfort you and guide you!

 

[Magnus Maximus]

The only issue I have with Lutheranism is that you use an incomplete bible, and Luther removed books he didn't like and would have removed more if he could. That being said Lutherans have valid sacraments, strong theological teachings and are a good solid Christian Church. Further do you really think Jesus would deny some one heaven who really believed in him, loved him, and followed him because of a denomination? The Lord wouldn't allow them to be punished because some one (theoretically and I am not saying you) lead them astray. There will be plenty of Lutherans as well as Martin Luther most likely in heaven.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

I don't know where else to place this thread. If I place it in the Lutheran forum, by people are going to tell me that I'm correct by default; if I place it in the Catholic forum, people are going to tell me that I'm incorrect by default. I'm also not sure of what advice, exactly, that I'm looking for, but nevertheless...

My wife was raised in a strict Catholic family. Ideally, she was to marry a Catholic and have a Catholic family. But then she met me, an atheist at the time. After awhile, she gave up her faith because she followed my lead and (poor) logic on how religion is stupid, fake, and irrational. But then several years ago, at random, out of the blue, with no warning or rational explanation, Jesus came to me in the most vivid dream I have ever had, and he told me, "Michael, forgiveness is yours; just believe and ask." I immediately woke up in sweat and tears and gave my life to him right then and there. I soon became a Lutheran, and my wife followed my lead, abandoning her Catholic upbringing and fully embracing Lutheranism. Throughout these years I have become exceptionally educated on Scripture and Theology, and my faith is radical, for better or worse, as is her faith. I plan to go to Concordia Seminary soon.

A couple of years ago, my mother-in-law began attending our church. It was a slow process for her, but she abandoned Catholicism and was confirmed as a Lutheran of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod a few weeks ago. She is now working on her own mother and showing her own life long Catholic mother the errors and additions of the Catholic Church.

Lutheranism feels so 'right'. I don't believe that Jesus would personally come to me, a militant atheist not far from being Saul himself in regards to my hatred of Christians and Christ, and save me, in the process saving my family, and then let us go astray and worship him in a false way, in a false faith. We must be right where he wants us. To me this is logical - at least that is my belief.

My wife and I now have 4 children, who are all Lutherans as well. Here's what keeps me up at night sometimes: What if - just what if - Catholicism is correct (I don't believe that it is), that it is the One True Church, and I, being the head of my family, have lead these people who were once part of Christ's Church (assuming now that the Catholic Church is his One True Church) astray? What if I intruded into their lives, and I lead a complete family away from Christ? It's very, very unlikely that they would have ceased to be Catholics without having met me. It would have been better for me to have never been born, or to have had a millstone fastened around my neck and been cast into the sea, if that's the case.

Final Note: No anti-Catholicism. That does nothing for us here. We are not anti-Catholic. We respect their faith and traditions. We simply believe, like Luther, that they are completely and utterly wrong about some things, and we can't accept that. I don't need piles of Scripture proving the Church is some beast, that it's wrong, or pagan references. Thank you.

Check your Inbox, I sent you a message about this.

 

[Monna]

As I read this thread I am filled with joy that...
... I was not saved by a denomination or sect;
... I was not saved by a creed of a statement of faith formulated by a small group of people (usually men)
... I was saved by the grace of God, who drew me to himself through Jesus Christ, and gave me the faith to believe, and continues to supply me with the necessary faith that it is He who keeps me, regardless of my many failings - I cannot hold onto him, but I am convinced that he holds me, and my 52 year experience is that he has never let go
... when He drew me to himself He made me a part of His spiritual body, and he nourishes me there both through his word (the scriptures) and in fellowship with other membes of his body - I do not need to be a formal, registered "member" of any organised church or denomination to remain "saved" because he made me a member of his body. (Even if I choose to be a member for other practical reasons.)
... I can find fellow believers in (probably) all christian denominations, because the Holy Spirit is not a respector of the boundaries we set up between us - Jesus saved me for relationship for community, not for division and dissention. The essential core of this community is the common faith in the work Jesus did through his death and resurrection. I do not need a checklist of all potential items of disagreement to avoid friendship - I am called to love even my enemies with whom I have nothing in common except a need for God's Grace and Love.
... God can give me grace (and I earnestly seek this grace) to appreciate the richness of diversity in fellow-believers who do find it important to attach themselves formally to a church of denomination. I regret that so many new denominations have grown through divisiveness, but I see the grace and power of God that has countered this division with a plethora of different modes and forms of worship - from silence, to praise with drums, cymbals and all manner of musical instruments, from unstructured gatherings to highly ritualised services. Different people, having different personalities, backgrounds, and preferences can find places where they can praise and worship their common Lord in the way that they find most natural and satisfying - realising at the same time, that we all need the Holy Spirit's intervension and "interpretation" to express our hearts' deepest thoughts to God.
... I do not have a religion, but a relationship with my Lord, my Saviour, my rôle model, my Goal, as well as with my Heavenly Father and the Holy Spirit; through this relationship I also am brought into community within which I can grow and contribute to the growth of others using the gifts God gave me
... the Counsellor has infinite patience with me in guiding me to more constructive and life-giving relationships (I have not been so good in this) and has shown me that I do not have a patent on "the truth" - rather he can teach me through his written Word, his people regardless of affiliation, and even through people who deny that he exists. My past is full of destructive negativism, bad judgement, cynism, fear and criticism, but the Spirit is working to transform me.
... that it is not me that determines who is right and who is wrong - I am not the judge, even if he does give the gift of discernment, and may ask me to approach others in a spirit of humility to open themselves to the Spirit's intervention where I have evidence that sin is being committed.
... that NONE of the above gives me right to boast, nor does it show I am better than anyone else. Nor does it give me the right to judge others regarding their convictions about "belonging" to this denomination or that. Everything in my life that may be good and positive is due entirely to the Lord Jesus working in me through the Holy Spirit. Everthing that is destructive, negative and wrong comes from within me myself.

Sword of the Lord, know that it is Jesus that keeps those that the Father entrusted to him. He will let you know if you are working against him! You are showing evidence that you are open to this guidance by your concern. God bless you.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I don't know where else to place this thread. If I place it in the Lutheran forum, by people are going to tell me that I'm correct by default; if I place it in the Catholic forum, people are going to tell me that I'm incorrect by default. I'm also not sure of what advice, exactly, that I'm looking for, but nevertheless...

My wife was raised in a strict Catholic family. Ideally, she was to marry a Catholic and have a Catholic family. But then she met me, an atheist at the time. After awhile, she gave up her faith because she followed my lead and (poor) logic on how religion is stupid, fake, and irrational. But then several years ago, at random, out of the blue, with no warning or rational explanation, Jesus came to me in the most vivid dream I have ever had, and he told me, "Michael, forgiveness is yours; just believe and ask." I immediately woke up in sweat and tears and gave my life to him right then and there. I soon became a Lutheran, and my wife followed my lead, abandoning her Catholic upbringing and fully embracing Lutheranism. Throughout these years I have become exceptionally educated on Scripture and Theology, and my faith is radical, for better or worse, as is her faith. I plan to go to Concordia Seminary soon.

A couple of years ago, my mother-in-law began attending our church. It was a slow process for her, but she abandoned Catholicism and was confirmed as a Lutheran of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod a few weeks ago. She is now working on her own mother and showing her own life long Catholic mother the errors and additions of the Catholic Church.

Lutheranism feels so 'right'. I don't believe that Jesus would personally come to me, a militant atheist not far from being Saul himself in regards to my hatred of Christians and Christ, and save me, in the process saving my family, and then let us go astray and worship him in a false way, in a false faith. We must be right where he wants us. To me this is logical - at least that is my belief.

My wife and I now have 4 children, who are all Lutherans as well. Here's what keeps me up at night sometimes: What if - just what if - Catholicism is correct (I don't believe that it is), that it is the One True Church, and I, being the head of my family, have lead these people who were once part of Christ's Church (assuming now that the Catholic Church is his One True Church) astray? What if I intruded into their lives, and I lead a complete family away from Christ? It's very, very unlikely that they would have ceased to be Catholics without having met me. It would have been better for me to have never been born, or to have had a millstone fastened around my neck and been cast into the sea, if that's the case.

Final Note: No anti-Catholicism. That does nothing for us here. We are not anti-Catholic. We respect their faith and traditions. We simply believe, like Luther, that they are completely and utterly wrong about some things, and we can't accept that. I don't need piles of Scripture proving the Church is some beast, that it's wrong, or pagan references. Thank you.

The milestone analogy seems to suggest much more than the intended meaning of any Church's claim of One Body, One Bread. So am unclear why there would be such a doubt regarding leading one's family away from one Christian belief to another Christian belief. The aim of both Churches is the same regardless of any errors or imagined errors of either.

When I joined the RCC after life long being evangelical a wise old nun told every class considering (the annual classes are often open to even the just curious) that she would rather people be a good Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran or whatever than to become a poor Catholic. The positions of the RCC as One true Church is a not a statement about the current state (or potential future state) of Christians not in full union with it.

It has perhaps been famously phrased that way in more ancient times, but those statements must be considered in the age given. In those days and in a very real sense to separate oneself from the Church totally left no other options for a Christian and in the view of the same Church is potentially eternally fatal to the believers walk as there was not another Church to walk (or ride a horse) to tend to the believers needs/faith. That is not true today.

 

[sunshine456]

These are the questions I have for you....

Do you feel persecuted as a part of the luthern church? Is there a calm for the most part in your life now after adhering?

Prior to so called conversion what was your focused hatred toward in reference to Christian....Catholic, luthern, Mormons, etc? If there was any one primary focus; then which one was it towards?

I have defended the catholic church, and have stood for it principles through faith, but not anything that would possibly alter scriptures.

I will tell you I have been persecuted, rejected, ignored, and felt the sting of persecution ever more increasingly after becoming apart of the family of JESUS CHRIST and being confirmed in the catholic church. If you are not encountering those "stings" then question through prayer and continue to pray. I mean after all if you are still uncertain; then where is that uncertainty coming from? Is it doubt from below....and yes of course that is one of the devil's tricks through deception to lay the roads of confusion and keep a person bound.

JESUS CHRIST the son of GOD is the way, the TRUTH and the life and by the grace of GOD through his son we are redeemed. Belonging to the church of JESUS CHRIST is an essential and integral core aspect of our lives and we all need reaasurance and faith in understanding that we are on the right path and a congregational flock member. Many of us have questioned which is the correct and true church as the enemy has designed through deceptive principles and powers that bind people to either the TRUTH or a possible lie....so I ask you WHY are you here on the Christian forums making mention of this?

The last questions I have for you....does the luthern church have divisions in of itself? For example is there splits in it's own classification or different groups? Some would say that if a church is divided against itself "how can it truly stand?" Does the luthern church also follow the principles and practices through teaching/preaching in accordance with holy scriptures and the word of GOD the heavenly father to the key?

What is it's stance on women as preachers(timothy tells us the TRUTH)? What is it's stance on sexual immorality? What does it teach us about the holy trinity and what was the leader; being luther himself excommunicated for from the catholic church as a assigned priest?

Ask GOD the heavenly father for true discernment through his son lord JESUS CHRIST; waiting patiently for a response and then asking JESUS CHRIST to lead you into his true CHURCH if not for yourself, but for your family. You may want to consider that you were being led by your wife to the true church all along.

I also would like to ask you which church is the oldest(catholic or luthern)and which was led by the direct disciples and apostles of JESUS CHRIST?

If it GOD's will I pray that you and your family are led "home" on the right path and into the flock and fold of JESUS CHRIST. remember the enemy the devil is roaring around us like a lion; seeking whom it can devour.....so stay steadfast and fight the good fight; being persevering and put on the full armor of GOD so the enemy cannot deceive you-for I certainly know all to well that he is roaring!!

So I rebuke him in the name of JESUS CHRIST the son of GOD for the sake of your family and ask that your entire family pray for the wisdom and guidance to lead you on the true and righteous path.

Praise be to GOD the heavenly father and his son lord JESUS CHRIST forever>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[CGL1023]

I don't know where else to place this thread. If I place it in the Lutheran forum, by people are going to tell me that I'm correct by default; if I place it in the Catholic forum, people are going to tell me that I'm incorrect by default. I'm also not sure of what advice, exactly, that I'm looking for, but nevertheless...

My wife was raised in a strict Catholic family. Ideally, she was to marry a Catholic and have a Catholic family. But then she met me, an atheist at the time. After awhile, she gave up her faith because she followed my lead and (poor) logic on how religion is stupid, fake, and irrational. But then several years ago, at random, out of the blue, with no warning or rational explanation, Jesus came to me in the most vivid dream I have ever had, and he told me, "Michael, forgiveness is yours; just believe and ask." I immediately woke up in sweat and tears and gave my life to him right then and there. I soon became a Lutheran, and my wife followed my lead, abandoning her Catholic upbringing and fully embracing Lutheranism. Throughout these years I have become exceptionally educated on Scripture and Theology, and my faith is radical, for better or worse, as is her faith. I plan to go to Concordia Seminary soon.

A couple of years ago, my mother-in-law began attending our church. It was a slow process for her, but she abandoned Catholicism and was confirmed as a Lutheran of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod a few weeks ago. She is now working on her own mother and showing her own life long Catholic mother the errors and additions of the Catholic Church.

Lutheranism feels so 'right'. I don't believe that Jesus would personally come to me, a militant atheist not far from being Saul himself in regards to my hatred of Christians and Christ, and save me, in the process saving my family, and then let us go astray and worship him in a false way, in a false faith. We must be right where he wants us. To me this is logical - at least that is my belief.

My wife and I now have 4 children, who are all Lutherans as well. Here's what keeps me up at night sometimes: What if - just what if - Catholicism is correct (I don't believe that it is), that it is the One True Church, and I, being the head of my family, have lead these people who were once part of Christ's Church (assuming now that the Catholic Church is his One True Church) astray? What if I intruded into their lives, and I lead a complete family away from Christ? It's very, very unlikely that they would have ceased to be Catholics without having met me. It would have been better for me to have never been born, or to have had a millstone fastened around my neck and been cast into the sea, if that's the case.

Final Note: No anti-Catholicism. That does nothing for us here. We are not anti-Catholic. We respect their faith and traditions. We simply believe, like Luther, that they are completely and utterly wrong about some things, and we can't accept that. I don't need piles of Scripture proving the Church is some beast, that it's wrong, or pagan references. Thank you.

I can't imagine God being denomination conscious; I have heard/read powerful and moving testimonies, similar to your own, from people in many denominations. In these cases the reality of God or Jesus inspired them to take (possibly radical) action. From these examples, I conclude that our objective, oneness with God, is not a denominational issue.
Suppose the only true Christians are the Syrian Christians or the Coptic Christians or the Chinese Christians; then what? I don't see how there can only be one true denomination.

 

[hedrick]

I can’t help wondering what Jesus (or Paul) would think of this discussion. Is there any sign in the teachings of either that Jesus would reject a follower because they made the wrong choice on this matter? You can argue that certain errors involve rejection of Jesus’ mission. But neither the Catholic nor Lutheran churches can plausibly be accused of that.

I find the following particularly appalling:

Stuff like this makes things a bit difficult:

Padre Pio said that Martin Luther is in Hell and Christians today who follow him will meet the same end.

Jesus spoke of only one unforgiveable sin: refusal to recognize the activity of the Holy Spirit when he’s somewhere that our theology says he shouldn’t be. (Look at the context of Mark 3:29.) I can’t judge anyone, but Padre Pio seems on very dangerous ground here.

 

[GoingByzantine]

As Christians, we cannot assume or presume anything about the salvation of others. The best we can do is pray, and follow the examples that Christ has given us.

 

[Michael Scaman]

I recommend the 'We are protestant' talks form last years together for the Gospel conference in Louisville.

http://t4g.org/resources/audio/

 

[Michael Scaman]

 

[Blade]

Hard to really see based on so little. For me ..it I told me kids.. DONT go to so and so Church they are wrong.. they teach wrong.. they love this and that so forth so on. I could be leading them the wrong way. What I see and hear is NOT HIS truth HIS word. Its what I personally see...and that is NOT HIS word. Now to show them.. what the word says.. to have them read it seek and serach for JESUS IS REAL! I have faith in HIM that what HE starts HE will finish and He does NOT need my help to save anyone. I can not.

I can be a light to show them the way.. but every lasting life is not in my hands. They have to make the choice and only the sweet sweet Holy Spirit draws anyone to Him.. I didnt. But we can lead them the wrong way. So many of us KNOW our truth is the REAL truth. How many times on this site alone have you read "you need to go back and study more" and even more not so nice things said.

So know that JESUS is really truly really really really really real! We have to make sure WE dont get in HIS way. We die so HE can live through us.. you had to ask this.. should be all the proof your not

 

[Lepanto]

What if - just what if - Catholicism is correct (I don't believe that it is), that it is the One True Church, and I, being the head of my family, have lead these people who were once part of Christ's Church (assuming now that the Catholic Church is his One True Church) astray? What if I intruded into their lives, and I lead a complete family away from Christ? It's very, very unlikely that they would have ceased to be Catholics without having met me. It would have been better for me to have never been born, or to have had a millstone fastened around my neck and been cast into the sea, if that's the case.

I won't give you the answer. It's better if you ask the Lord to guide you to the Truth. Logic would also help a lot. But tell me why did you pick Lutheranism, out of so many (more than 5000?) Protestant denominations (which have conflicting interpretations on some parts of the Bible) ?

Do you really understand all Protestant denominations (more than 5000?) ?
Do you really understand the Catholic Church? Do you really know the history of Protestantism and Catholicism? Do you really know who compiled the Bible (Lord Jesus didn't hand us Bible in book format) ?

 

[Sword of the Lord]

I won't give you the answer. It's better if you ask the Lord to guide you to the Truth. Logic would also help a lot. But tell me why did you pick Lutheranism, out of so many (more than 5000?) Protestant denominations (which have conflicting interpretations on some parts of the Bible) ?

Do you really understand all Protestant denominations (more than 5000?) ?
Do you really understand the Catholic Church? Do you really know the history of Protestantism and Catholicism? Do you really know who compiled the Bible (Lord Jesus didn't hand us Bible in book format) ?

I picked Lutheranism years ago because I believe Confessional Lutheranism practices Christianity more Biblically than any other Christian group. I do know the history of the the Church, Christianity, the Councils, and the Church Fathers. Confessional Lutheranism was an informed decision. I believe everything they (we) believe and I believe that what we believe is perfectly found in Scripture. I don't believe we are any sort of one true church, just that we do it best, else I wouldn't be Lutheran.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

@Lepanto we believe that the Church went off course, and that we reformed and went back on course. We're waiting for the rest of you to join us (Catholics). The creation of a new church isn't the idea or how we see it.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I don't know where else to place this thread. If I place it in the Lutheran forum, by people are going to tell me that I'm correct by default; if I place it in the Catholic forum, people are going to tell me that I'm incorrect by default. I'm also not sure of what advice, exactly, that I'm looking for, but nevertheless...

My wife was raised in a strict Catholic family. Ideally, she was to marry a Catholic and have a Catholic family. But then she met me, an atheist at the time. After awhile, she gave up her faith because she followed my lead and (poor) logic on how religion is stupid, fake, and irrational. But then several years ago, at random, out of the blue, with no warning or rational explanation, Jesus came to me in the most vivid dream I have ever had, and he told me, "Michael, forgiveness is yours; just believe and ask." I immediately woke up in sweat and tears and gave my life to him right then and there. I soon became a Lutheran, and my wife followed my lead, abandoning her Catholic upbringing and fully embracing Lutheranism. Throughout these years I have become exceptionally educated on Scripture and Theology, and my faith is radical, for better or worse, as is her faith. I plan to go to Concordia Seminary soon.

A couple of years ago, my mother-in-law began attending our church. It was a slow process for her, but she abandoned Catholicism and was confirmed as a Lutheran of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod a few weeks ago. She is now working on her own mother and showing her own life long Catholic mother the errors and additions of the Catholic Church.

Lutheranism feels so 'right'. I don't believe that Jesus would personally come to me, a militant atheist not far from being Saul himself in regards to my hatred of Christians and Christ, and save me, in the process saving my family, and then let us go astray and worship him in a false way, in a false faith. We must be right where he wants us. To me this is logical - at least that is my belief.

My wife and I now have 4 children, who are all Lutherans as well. Here's what keeps me up at night sometimes: What if - just what if - Catholicism is correct (I don't believe that it is), that it is the One True Church, and I, being the head of my family, have lead these people who were once part of Christ's Church (assuming now that the Catholic Church is his One True Church) astray? What if I intruded into their lives, and I lead a complete family away from Christ? It's very, very unlikely that they would have ceased to be Catholics without having met me. It would have been better for me to have never been born, or to have had a millstone fastened around my neck and been cast into the sea, if that's the case.

Final Note: No anti-Catholicism. That does nothing for us here. We are not anti-Catholic. We respect their faith and traditions. We simply believe, like Luther, that they are completely and utterly wrong about some things, and we can't accept that. I don't need piles of Scripture proving the Church is some beast, that it's wrong, or pagan references. Thank you.

The atonement is two fold. Jesus died to reconcile us with the father and also to reconcile us with each other. There are seven churches in the book of Revolution along with seven spirits for the seven churches. It is not the church that saves us. Even we are not to lean on our own understanding.

5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight proverbs 3:5