What if I've lead them all astray?

Sword of the Lord

In need of a physician.
Dec 29, 2012
13,957
7,530
Not in Heaven yet
✟143,461.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Engaged
I don't know where else to place this thread. If I place it in the Lutheran forum, by people are going to tell me that I'm correct by default; if I place it in the Catholic forum, people are going to tell me that I'm incorrect by default. I'm also not sure of what advice, exactly, that I'm looking for, but nevertheless...

My wife was raised in a strict Catholic family. Ideally, she was to marry a Catholic and have a Catholic family. But then she met me, an atheist at the time. After awhile, she gave up her faith because she followed my lead and (poor) logic on how religion is stupid, fake, and irrational. But then several years ago, at random, out of the blue, with no warning or rational explanation, Jesus came to me in the most vivid dream I have ever had, and he told me, "Michael, forgiveness is yours; just believe and ask." I immediately woke up in sweat and tears and gave my life to him right then and there. I soon became a Lutheran, and my wife followed my lead, abandoning her Catholic upbringing and fully embracing Lutheranism. Throughout these years I have become exceptionally educated on Scripture and Theology, and my faith is radical, for better or worse, as is her faith. I plan to go to Concordia Seminary soon.

A couple of years ago, my mother-in-law began attending our church. It was a slow process for her, but she abandoned Catholicism and was confirmed as a Lutheran of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod a few weeks ago. She is now working on her own mother and showing her own life long Catholic mother the errors and additions of the Catholic Church.

Lutheranism feels so 'right'. I don't believe that Jesus would personally come to me, a militant atheist not far from being Saul himself in regards to my hatred of Christians and Christ, and save me, in the process saving my family, and then let us go astray and worship him in a false way, in a false faith. We must be right where he wants us. To me this is logical - at least that is my belief.

My wife and I now have 4 children, who are all Lutherans as well. Here's what keeps me up at night sometimes: What if - just what if - Catholicism is correct (I don't believe that it is), that it is the One True Church, and I, being the head of my family, have lead these people who were once part of Christ's Church (assuming now that the Catholic Church is his One True Church) astray? What if I intruded into their lives, and I lead a complete family away from Christ? It's very, very unlikely that they would have ceased to be Catholics without having met me. It would have been better for me to have never been born, or to have had a millstone fastened around my neck and been cast into the sea, if that's the case.

Final Note: No anti-Catholicism. That does nothing for us here. We are not anti-Catholic. We respect their faith and traditions. We simply believe, like Luther, that they are completely and utterly wrong about some things, and we can't accept that. I don't need piles of Scripture proving the Church is some beast, that it's wrong, or pagan references. Thank you.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Michie

faroukfarouk

Fading curmudgeon
Apr 29, 2009
35,902
17,177
Canada
✟279,058.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I don't know where else to place this thread. If I place it in the Lutheran forum, by people are going to tell me that I'm correct by default; if I place it in the Catholic forum, people are going to tell me that I'm incorrect by default. I'm also not sure of what advice, exactly, that I'm looking for, but nevertheless...

My wife was raised in a strict Catholic family. Ideally, she was to marry a Catholic and have a Catholic family. But then she met me, an atheist at the time. After awhile, she gave up her faith because she followed my lead and (poor) logic on how religion is stupid, fake, and irrational. But then several years ago, at random, out of the blue, with no warning or rational explanation, Jesus came to me in the most vivid dream I have ever had, and he told me, "Michael, forgiveness is yours; just believe and ask." I immediately woke up in sweat and tears and gave my life to him right then and there. I soon became a Lutheran, and my wife followed my lead, abandoning her Catholic upbringing and fully embracing Lutheranism. Throughout these years I have become exceptionally educated on Scripture and Theology, and my faith is radical, for better or worse, as is her faith. I plan to go to Concordia Seminary soon.

A couple of years ago, my mother-in-law began attending our church. It was a slow process for her, but she abandoned Catholicism and was confirmed as a Lutheran of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod a few weeks ago. She is now working on her own mother and showing her own life long Catholic mother the errors and additions of the Catholic Church.

Lutheranism feels so 'right'. I don't believe that Jesus would personally come to me, a militant atheist not far from being Saul himself in regards to my hatred of Christians and Christ, and save me, in the process saving my family, and then let us go astray and worship him in a false way, in a false faith. We must be right where he wants us. To me this is logical - at least that is my belief.

My wife and I now have 4 children, who are all Lutherans as well. Here's what keeps me up at night sometimes: What if - just what if - Catholicism is correct (I don't believe that it is), that it is the One True Church, and I, being the head of my family, have lead these people who were once part of Christ's Church (assuming now that the Catholic Church is his One True Church) astray? What if I intruded into their lives, and I lead a complete family away from Christ? It's very, very unlikely that they would have ceased to be Catholics without having met me. It would have been better for me to have never been born, or to have had a millstone fastened around my neck and been cast into the sea, if that's the case.

Final Note: No anti-Catholicism. That does nothing for us here. We are not anti-Catholic. We respect their faith and traditions. We simply believe, like Luther, that they are completely and utterly wrong about some things, and we can't accept that. I don't need piles of Scripture proving the Church is some beast, that it's wrong, or pagan references. Thank you.
Go to the Word and figure from it what is true, which doctrines are Scriptural. There's no substitute to doing this.
 
Upvote 0

Kenny'sID

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 28, 2016
18,185
7,001
69
USA
✟585,304.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
If you are being told by anyone that the Catholic is the only true church, you have not been told the truth...don't worry about it. as mentioned, see what the Bible says and right off hand, I doubt you'll find anything to substantiate that....Man mad malarkey. :)
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Jadis40
Upvote 0

Archie the Preacher

Apostle to the Intellectual Skeptics
Apr 11, 2003
3,171
1,011
Hastings, Nebraska - the Heartland!
Visit site
✟38,822.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
IF you have lead them all astray, you are in deep trouble. But I do not think you have or are.

To be 'right' with God is Salvation. Salvation is a gift of God accessed by asking for sincerely and in the process surrendering to God. Sounds like you did that after the visitation or whatever you want to call it.

There are many different denominations of Christians who have more or less "additional" requirements. Those range from the quite modest to the rather extreme. But NOTHING I find in the Bible says one has to belong to a certain subgroup of Christianity. Others will differ in that assessment. You will have to seek God's guidance as to the fitness of any such assessment.
 
Upvote 0

pdudgeon

Traditional Catholic
Supporter
In Memory Of
Aug 4, 2005
37,777
12,353
South East Virginia, US
✟493,233.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Republican
while you're studying what Luther wrote and where he differed with the Catholic Church, make sure to get the full story from both sides, not just one.
and then ask God to guide your choices.
 
Upvote 0

Your Brother In Christ

Christian YouTuber
Jan 30, 2017
286
209
USA
✟17,945.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I don't know where else to place this thread. If I place it in the Lutheran forum, by people are going to tell me that I'm correct by default; if I place it in the Catholic forum, people are going to tell me that I'm incorrect by default. I'm also not sure of what advice, exactly, that I'm looking for, but nevertheless...

My wife was raised in a strict Catholic family. Ideally, she was to marry a Catholic and have a Catholic family. But then she met me, an atheist at the time. After awhile, she gave up her faith because she followed my lead and (poor) logic on how religion is stupid, fake, and irrational. But then several years ago, at random, out of the blue, with no warning or rational explanation, Jesus came to me in the most vivid dream I have ever had, and he told me, "Michael, forgiveness is yours; just believe and ask." I immediately woke up in sweat and tears and gave my life to him right then and there. I soon became a Lutheran, and my wife followed my lead, abandoning her Catholic upbringing and fully embracing Lutheranism. Throughout these years I have become exceptionally educated on Scripture and Theology, and my faith is radical, for better or worse, as is her faith. I plan to go to Concordia Seminary soon.

A couple of years ago, my mother-in-law began attending our church. It was a slow process for her, but she abandoned Catholicism and was confirmed as a Lutheran of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod a few weeks ago. She is now working on her own mother and showing her own life long Catholic mother the errors and additions of the Catholic Church.

Lutheranism feels so 'right'. I don't believe that Jesus would personally come to me, a militant atheist not far from being Saul himself in regards to my hatred of Christians and Christ, and save me, in the process saving my family, and then let us go astray and worship him in a false way, in a false faith. We must be right where he wants us. To me this is logical - at least that is my belief.

My wife and I now have 4 children, who are all Lutherans as well. Here's what keeps me up at night sometimes: What if - just what if - Catholicism is correct (I don't believe that it is), that it is the One True Church, and I, being the head of my family, have lead these people who were once part of Christ's Church (assuming now that the Catholic Church is his One True Church) astray? What if I intruded into their lives, and I lead a complete family away from Christ? It's very, very unlikely that they would have ceased to be Catholics without having met me. It would have been better for me to have never been born, or to have had a millstone fastened around my neck and been cast into the sea, if that's the case.

Final Note: No anti-Catholicism. That does nothing for us here. We are not anti-Catholic. We respect their faith and traditions. We simply believe, like Luther, that they are completely and utterly wrong about some things, and we can't accept that. I don't need piles of Scripture proving the Church is some beast, that it's wrong, or pagan references. Thank you.

The very fact that this bugs you is excellent, I love it. It means that you are spiritually awake and seeking the Lord. I can't express how fantastic this is. You are at the beginning of a great adventure, if you study the Word and seek God, He will NOT disappoint you. By the Lord's design, you are the spiritual head of your house, and you are thinking of their spiritual well being, This shows that you are a great husband and father. This is coming from someone with the gift of discernment, prophecy, and evangelism.
 
Upvote 0

musicalpilgrim

pilgrim on the sacred music pathway
Angels Team
Supporter
Jan 11, 2012
22,882
32,366
East of Manchester
✟2,620,944.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
I don't know where else to place this thread. If I place it in the Lutheran forum, by people are going to tell me that I'm correct by default; if I place it in the Catholic forum, people are going to tell me that I'm incorrect by default. I'm also not sure of what advice, exactly, that I'm looking for, but nevertheless...
There are many different denominations of Christians who have more or less "additional" requirements. Those range from the quite modest to the rather extreme. But NOTHING I find in the Bible says one has to belong to a certain subgroup of Christianity.
Hi Sword of the Lord, that is an amazing post, I thank God for revealing himself to you.
As Archie says, there are many denominations...believe me, non of them are perfect.

It is all about knowing the Lord, it is a personal relationship with the Father, being filled with the Holy Spirit and living daily in his presence. Read your Bible and pray every day...and carry on evangelizing your family! Wow, you are doing an amazing job! May the Lord bless you richly with his presence.

I am reading the book of Acts; they went daily to the Temple to worship the Lord and met in each others' homes to pray and read the Bible and brake bread together.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,473
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,087.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
From a Catholic standpoint, there is only one baptism, and most Protestant baptisms are acknowledged as valid. We may be estranged brethren, but we are still brethren in Rome's eyes.

I come from an Orthodox background and my pastor never asked me to renounce anything from my former church. I just came to accept justification by faith as true, and realized it was an important message that was not always clearly heard. Being a Lutheran and being Catholic are not incompatible, and the Augsburg Confession expresses a desire for Christian unity. But that's my perspective as an ELCA Lutheran.

For all I know the Catholic church may be the perfect church, the Orthodox church may be the perfect church but... I think the Lutheran faith is sufficient. That doesn't mean perfect, that means sufficient. See the difference? There's nothing in Lutheranism that denies the essential truths of the Catholic faith.

I've met plenty of Lutherans who are a bit anti-Catholic. It might be a good time to reflect on this, if you are being charitable towards the Roman faith. You might want to study it more. I wouldn't encourage a Roman Catholic to leave their church unless they had serious pastoral reasons for doing so, honestly. They have valid baptism, valid sacraments, and often, at least adequate preaching. And the Gospel is preached in at least the absolution.

I think you should honestly trust your experiences of God, because like an Episcopalian pastor once told me years ago, you could drive yourself crazy trying to find that perfect church. That's a huge question. He made it clear to me that the personal side of faith was just as important. You can't put God in a church-sized box. He has other flocks and other sheep. Jesus is the conquerer of death with the keys to Hades, you have to trust he wouldn't lead you astray.

It's a good season to reflect on your own personal faith. Don't worry, and trust your baptism.
 
Upvote 0

Michie

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
165,483
55,183
Woods
✟4,582,926.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I think you are right. God has you where he wants you at this point. You have not led your family astray. You all still have the foundation that is faith in Jesus Christ and you all follow him to the best of your understanding and ability. Our salvation does not depend on the small points of theology but our faith and acceptance of Christ. We are all united albeit, imperfectly.
 
Upvote 0

Kit Sigmon

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2016
2,032
1,285
USA
✟76,189.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
The right church be God's church...there only One, believers make up the Body(church).
Our identity be found in Christ, too many hung up on denominational
identities, we need to be Christ-ians...Christ followers.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Sword of the Lord

In need of a physician.
Dec 29, 2012
13,957
7,530
Not in Heaven yet
✟143,461.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Engaged
Go to the Word and figure from it what is true, which doctrines are Scriptural. There's no substitute to doing this.
I've done that. That is why we are LCMS Christians. However, I am but a man.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Winken
Upvote 0

Sword of the Lord

In need of a physician.
Dec 29, 2012
13,957
7,530
Not in Heaven yet
✟143,461.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Engaged
If you are being told by anyone that the Catholic is the only true church, you have not been told the truth...don't worry about it. as mentioned, see what the Bible says and right off hand, I doubt you'll find anything to substantiate that....Man mad malarkey. :)
It's their belief that they are the One True Church and there is no salvation outside of it. I don't believe that, personally. But what bothers me is, what if they're right and I led people from the only faith that saves? I don't believe I did, but since I literally led people from the ancient church that teaches this, my mind naturally wanders.
 
Upvote 0

Sword of the Lord

In need of a physician.
Dec 29, 2012
13,957
7,530
Not in Heaven yet
✟143,461.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Engaged
IF you have lead them all astray, you are in deep trouble. But I do not think you have or are.

To be 'right' with God is Salvation. Salvation is a gift of God accessed by asking for sincerely and in the process surrendering to God. Sounds like you did that after the visitation or whatever you want to call it.

There are many different denominations of Christians who have more or less "additional" requirements. Those range from the quite modest to the rather extreme. But NOTHING I find in the Bible says one has to belong to a certain subgroup of Christianity. Others will differ in that assessment. You will have to seek God's guidance as to the fitness of any such assessment.
True. It can be difficult to look at history and tradition, while having such close ties to this faith, to not wonder, though.
 
Upvote 0

Sword of the Lord

In need of a physician.
Dec 29, 2012
13,957
7,530
Not in Heaven yet
✟143,461.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Engaged
while you're studying what Luther wrote and where he differed with the Catholic Church, make sure to get the full story from both sides, not just one.
and then ask God to guide your choices.
I've looked at both sides. No church is innocent, but I believe the Lutheran views, and the rotten fruit of the RCC throughout its entire history cannot be hidden.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Tangible
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
"Sword," you may be suffering (on behalf of your wife and mother in law) from that residual thinking which many ex-Catholics carry with them. Having been told by the RCC that there's only one true church/denomination...what if they were right about that after all??

But you joined a very respectable church body, were sincere in your decision, are well-informed about the distinctive beliefs of both church bodies, and probably could not have hoodwinked all these other people if their own knowledge and convictions didn't support them in joining you in the LCMS. In other words, I doubt that you should worry about this.

Besides, both churches believe that the other one is made up of true Christians, even if there are some differences of doctrine. The only heavy-hitter in that list of differences is, you know, whether or not Christ did indeed found a denomination rather than a cause or movement, and I really think you know enough to know that this is not the case, the other differences over Holy Communion or the sufficiency of Scripture not withstanding.

:)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Sword of the Lord

In need of a physician.
Dec 29, 2012
13,957
7,530
Not in Heaven yet
✟143,461.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Engaged
The very fact that this bugs you is excellent, I love it. It means that you are spiritually awake and seeking the Lord. I can't express how fantastic this is. You are at the beginning of a great adventure, if you study the Word and seek God, He will NOT disappoint you. By the Lord's design, you are the spiritual head of your house, and you are thinking of their spiritual well being, This shows that you are a great husband and father. This is coming from someone with the gift of discernment, prophecy, and evangelism.
Thank you; that means a lot. I hadn't thought of this.

BTW: I also believe I have the gift of discernment.
 
Upvote 0

Sword of the Lord

In need of a physician.
Dec 29, 2012
13,957
7,530
Not in Heaven yet
✟143,461.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Engaged
Hi Sword of the Lord, that is an amazing post, I thank God for revealing himself to you.
As Archie says, there are many denominations...believe me, non of them are perfect.

It is all about knowing the Lord, it is a personal relationship with the Father, being filled with the Holy Spirit and living daily in his presence. Read your Bible and pray every day...and carry on evangelizing your family! Wow, you are doing an amazing job! May the Lord bless you richly with his presence.

I am reading the book of Acts; they went daily to the Temple to worship the Lord and met in each others' homes to pray and read the Bible and brake bread together.
Thank you.
 
Upvote 0

Sword of the Lord

In need of a physician.
Dec 29, 2012
13,957
7,530
Not in Heaven yet
✟143,461.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Engaged
From a Catholic standpoint, there is only one baptism, and most Protestant baptisms are acknowledged as valid. We may be estranged brethren, but we are still brethren in Rome's eyes.

I come from an Orthodox background and my pastor never asked me to renounce anything from my former church. I just came to accept justification by faith as true, and realized it was an important message that was not always clearly heard. Being a Lutheran and being Catholic are not incompatible, and the Augsburg Confession expresses a desire for Christian unity. But that's my perspective as an ELCA Lutheran.

For all I know the Catholic church may be the perfect church, the Orthodox church may be the perfect church but... I think the Lutheran faith is sufficient. That doesn't mean perfect, that means sufficient. See the difference? There's nothing in Lutheranism that denies the essential truths of the Catholic faith.

I've met plenty of Lutherans who are a bit anti-Catholic. It might be a good time to reflect on this, if you are being charitable towards the Roman faith. You might want to study it more. I wouldn't encourage a Roman Catholic to leave their church unless they had serious pastoral reasons for doing so, honestly. They have valid baptism, valid sacraments, and often, at least adequate preaching. And the Gospel is preached in at least the absolution.

I think you should honestly trust your experiences of God, because like an Episcopalian pastor once told me years ago, you could drive yourself crazy trying to find that perfect church. That's a huge question. He made it clear to me that the personal side of faith was just as important. You can't put God in a church-sized box. He has other flocks and other sheep. Jesus is the conquerer of death with the keys to Hades, you have to trust he wouldn't lead you astray.

It's a good season to reflect on your own personal faith. Don't worry, and trust your baptism.
The LCMS isn't as cozy about the RCC or its beliefs, history, and additions. Error is error. My wife and her mother followed me and saw for themselves and learned for themselves. I didn't talk them into leaving the Church, but my lead was followed. Also, it is wrong for a family to worship in separate houses.
 
Upvote 0

faroukfarouk

Fading curmudgeon
Apr 29, 2009
35,902
17,177
Canada
✟279,058.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I've done that. That is why we are LCMS Christians. However, I am but a man.
Well, the Word of God is there both to enlighten you initially and then to strengthen you for the rest of your life, so that you are not turned away by the opinions of men, wherever they may come from.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Sword of the Lord

In need of a physician.
Dec 29, 2012
13,957
7,530
Not in Heaven yet
✟143,461.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Engaged
I think you are right. God has you where he wants you at this point. You have not led your family astray. You all still have the foundation that is faith in Jesus Christ and you all follow him to the best of your understanding and ability. Our salvation does not depend on the small points of theology but our faith and acceptance of Christ. We are all united albeit, imperfectly.
Thanks Michie. Fancy seeing you here! ;)

The actual teachings of the Church doesn't share your charitable views. I know that the Pope has been really charitable and confusing, and kind of half truthing historical Church teachings in the name of love, but teaching and history remains the same.

Appreciate it nonetheless.
 
Upvote 0