What if I've lead them all astray?

[Sword of the Lord]

Well honestly, I have thought of the same thing myself. Not that Lutherans are going to Hell, but that Martin Luther at the end of his life was not really a nice guy. But still... I am a Christian first ,Catholic second, and Lutheran distant third.

The aforementioned culpability would come into play, I'd think. He kind of lost his mind to old age.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

One really off topic post but I have to say:

Wow! Discussions are so much better on this forum outside of OBOB and American Politics. I haven't ventured out in awhile.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I don't know where else to place this thread. If I place it in the Lutheran forum, by people are going to tell me that I'm correct by default; if I place it in the Catholic forum, people are going to tell me that I'm incorrect by default. I'm also not sure of what advice, exactly, that I'm looking for, but nevertheless...

My wife was raised in a strict Catholic family. Ideally, she was to marry a Catholic and have a Catholic family. But then she met me, an atheist at the time. After awhile, she gave up her faith because she followed my lead and (poor) logic on how religion is stupid, fake, and irrational. But then several years ago, at random, out of the blue, with no warning or rational explanation, Jesus came to me in the most vivid dream I have ever had, and he told me, "Michael, forgiveness is yours; just believe and ask." I immediately woke up in sweat and tears and gave my life to him right then and there. I soon became a Lutheran, and my wife followed my lead, abandoning her Catholic upbringing and fully embracing Lutheranism. Throughout these years I have become exceptionally educated on Scripture and Theology, and my faith is radical, for better or worse, as is her faith. I plan to go to Concordia Seminary soon.

A couple of years ago, my mother-in-law began attending our church. It was a slow process for her, but she abandoned Catholicism and was confirmed as a Lutheran of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod a few weeks ago. She is now working on her own mother and showing her own life long Catholic mother the errors and additions of the Catholic Church.

Lutheranism feels so 'right'. I don't believe that Jesus would personally come to me, a militant atheist not far from being Saul himself in regards to my hatred of Christians and Christ, and save me, in the process saving my family, and then let us go astray and worship him in a false way, in a false faith. We must be right where he wants us. To me this is logical - at least that is my belief.

My wife and I now have 4 children, who are all Lutherans as well. Here's what keeps me up at night sometimes: What if - just what if - Catholicism is correct (I don't believe that it is), that it is the One True Church, and I, being the head of my family, have lead these people who were once part of Christ's Church (assuming now that the Catholic Church is his One True Church) astray? What if I intruded into their lives, and I lead a complete family away from Christ? It's very, very unlikely that they would have ceased to be Catholics without having met me. It would have been better for me to have never been born, or to have had a millstone fastened around my neck and been cast into the sea, if that's the case.

Final Note: No anti-Catholicism. That does nothing for us here. We are not anti-Catholic. We respect their faith and traditions. We simply believe, like Luther, that they are completely and utterly wrong about some things, and we can't accept that. I don't need piles of Scripture proving the Church is some beast, that it's wrong, or pagan references. Thank you.

I think you nailed it when you said Lutherism for you feels so right, for God saved you a militant athiest, and I am sure led you to attend a lutherist church. If God saved you when you were so vehemently against Him, do you think he did not lead you also to the church you attend?
Your wife came back to the faith with you in the Lutheran church and she embraced it, once again God must have been working I her life for This to be so.
I would say see God in all of this, trust him for where you both now worship. What truly matters?
The particular denomination you attend?
Or is what truly matters that you are both progressing with the Lord?
Dont let satan put doubts in your mind
A golden rule I would say, is if God I blessing you both spiritually, he is doing this, happy with the particular church you both attend.
As for church doctrine. What matters to God is you both accept his son as your saviour and in your hearts seek to follow him, not doctrinal differences that have no bearing on this. Rejoice your family I saved and going on with the Lord, that's what matters
BTW
I am neither Lutheran or catholic, so hopefully am writing positively and unbaiasedly.
Great testimony, thank you for sharing it

 

[truefiction1]

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[FireDragon76]

The aforementioned culpability would come into play, I'd think. He kind of lost his mind to old age.

Yes. Luther obviously had a lot of physical and mental problems. He was physically abused as a kid for one and had obvious issues with parental figures. And he was not some kind of lone hero boldly standing up to authority. He was actually a pathologically cautious man. At the Diet of Worms he was wracked with anxiety. The film produced by Thrivent around a decade ago with Joseph Fines is a good portrayal of him, actually, compared to past portrayals.

He had what today we would probably call IBS, irritable bowel syndrome, among other things. I have this too. Trust me, it can make you miserable. In his old age he may have had dementia from strokes, and he died from heart disease.

If you want to see a Catholic equivalent of Luther, I would read Story of a Soul by St. Therese of Lisieux. She had serious anxiety issues, most likely from a neurological disease. And she had a spirituality alot like Luther's in some ways, in that it was about human imperfection and blind faith in the mercy of God. Unlike Luther, she had a gentle demeanor, and didn't have "father issues". But in the last year of her life she confessed to being tempted to atheism and thoughts of suicide regularly, and faith brought her no joy. But still she kept believing.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Yes. Luther obviously had a lot of physical and mental problems. And he was not some kind of lone hero boldly standing up to authority. He was actually a pathologically cautious man. At the Diet of Worms he was wracked with anxiety. The film produced by Thrivent around a decade ago with Joseph Fines is a good portrayal of him, actually, compared to past portrayals.

He had what today we would probably call IBS, irritable bowel syndrome, among other things. I have this too. Trust me, it can make you miserable. In his old age he may have had dementia from strokes, and he died from heart disease.

If you want to see a Catholic equivalent of Luther, I would read Story of a Soul by St. Therese of Lisieux. She had serious anxiety issues, most likely from a neurological disease. And she had a spirituality alot like Luther's in some ways, in that it was about human imperfection and blind faith in the mercy of God. Unlike Luther, she had a gentle demeanor, and didn't have "father issues". But in the last year of her life she confessed to being tempted to atheism and thoughts of suicide regularly, and faith brought her no joy. But still she kept believing.

Luther did have health problems.

But above all it was about the Word of God. He said: "I did nothing. The Word did it all."

 

[Your Brother In Christ]

Thank you; that means a lot. I hadn't thought of this.

BTW: I also believe I have the gift of discernment.

I love questions and seeking the truth. Always seek the truth, for He is the way, the truth, and the life, (John 14:6).
“But if from there you seek the Lord your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul” (Deuteronomy 4:29).

 

[FireDragon76]

Luther did have health problems.

But above all it was about the Word of God. He said: "I did nothing. The Word did it all."

Yeah, but that's more about his spirituality of imperfection rather than some kind of polemic for Protestantism.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I love questions and seeking the truth. Always seek the truth, for He is the way, the truth, and the life, (John 14:6).
“But if from there you seek the Lord your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul” (Deuteronomy 4:29).

Good answer! It's not only knowing where the truth is. But seeking it out carefully by God's grace. Walking the talk, if you like.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Yeah, but that's more about his spirituality of imperfection rather than some kind of polemic for Protestantism.

I'm not quite sure what you mean, sorry.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm not quite sure what you mean, sorry.

I mean Luther was far more like a Catholic than otherwise. He was a very complex man and Protestants in general tend to grab him for one of their own without looking at the complexity of his life.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I mean Luther was far more like a Catholic than otherwise. He was a very complex man and Protestants in general tend to grab him for one of their own without looking at the complexity of his life.

Well, I would distinguish between his personal foibles - which everyone has - and the teaching with which he was identified.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

I mean Luther was far more like a Catholic than otherwise. He was a very complex man and Protestants in general tend to grab him for one of their own without looking at the complexity of his life.

Too true. Luther was not the man non-Lutheran Protestants tend to believe he was. Truly a "Wittenberg Catholic." I think many Protestants would go into shock if they read his writings on the Magnificat.

 

[faroukfarouk]

It means that you are spiritually awake and seeking the Lord. I can't express how fantastic this is.

Hebrews 9 speaks of the conscience being purged; it's really good to have the conscience engaged with Scripture.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

P.S. Staff: Please don't close the thread due to an immature, mentally disturbed troll. Please do a clean up only. This is a good discussion.

 

[FireDragon76]

Well, I would distinguish between his personal foibles - which everyone has - and the teaching with which he was identified.

No, I mean in many ways Luther was not a Protestant.

Lutheranism is really like a via media between Protestantism and Catholicism. I could list so many things that are more like Catholicism than the average Baptist or Presbyterian church, for instance.

 

[faroukfarouk]

No, I mean in many ways Luther was not a Protestant.

He was a Protestant par excellence; although with some ideas left from the influence of Rome in the Middle Ages.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

I love questions and seeking the truth. Always seek the truth, for He is the way, the truth, and the life, (John 14:6).
“But if from there you seek the Lord your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul” (Deuteronomy 4:29).

I am, unfortunately, very scrupulous when it comes to this. Probably OCD!

 

[Sword of the Lord]

No, I mean in many ways Luther was not a Protestant.

Lutheranism is really like a via media between Protestantism and Catholicism. I could list so many things that are more like Catholicism than the average Baptist or Presbyterian church, for instance.

Again, very true. Lutherans usually do not like the term Protestant. Either call us Protestant and Evangelical Christians something else, or don't call us Protestant. We fit the classical definition, but not what it's come to generally mean now. Catholic, just not Roman Catholic.

 

[FireDragon76]

He was a Protestant par excellence; although with some ideas left from the influence of Rome in the Middle Ages.

That's the myth of Protestantism for ya.. that the middle ages was some horrible period of time full of error and dead religion. In reality, what Luther lived through was a period of Renaissance humanist anxiety over religion- a period of decline and conciliar failures. His spirituality in many ways owes alot to the best of the late medieval Rhineland mystics. He took medieval spirituality and made it comprehensible to ordinary people.

I have a good book on this subject by a Swedish Lutheran scholar, called Theology of the Heart that talks about this often overlooked side of Luther.