What if I've lead them all astray?

[Sword of the Lord]

Really? I'm not going to worry about it now, but it does sound pretty anti-Catholic to me.

That being said, why not read what the Fathers of the Church say about their own Church before condemning it. Read the Ante-Nicene (that means before the Nicene) Fathers.

I'm first to admit that a lot of mistakes were made from 800 to 1900 or so in the Catholic Church. But what Luther was mostly complaining about was the selling of indulgences, a practice that I find detestable.

Being Lutheran and believing Catholicism is erroneous is not anti-Catholic.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Being Lutheran and believing Catholicism is erroneous is not anti-Catholic.

It's the way you said it! I admit to errors, always have. I'm the first to point them out! But what you said here:

What if - just what if - Catholicism is correct (I don't believe that it is), that it is the One True Church, and I, being the head of my family, have lead these people who were once part of Christ's Church (assuming now that the Catholic Church is his One True Church) astray?

Sounds like you believe at least some of the manure that some Protestants--along with Chick Tracts spread.

Do some real research--on the Lutheran church and their errors, as well as the Roman Catholics. Then do some research on the "other lung" of the Catholic Church, the 22 or so Eastern Catholic Churches. Read what the Church Fathers wrote. There is a lot of it on the internet, but you may have to borrow a few books too.

 

[Kenny'sID]

It's their belief that they are the One True Church and there is no salvation outside of it. I don't believe that, personally. But what bothers me is, what if they're right and I led people from the only faith that saves? I don't believe I did, but since I literally led people from the ancient church that teaches this, my mind naturally wanders.

I understand your concern..I mean we are talking eternity here.

I'm not 100% positive of much but this falls into that category, that's how certain I am you have nothing to worry about. Not sure why some denominations claim that...maybe to scare people into their church?

Rest assured.

 

[LaSorcia]

"The true church" is the body of Christ, i.e. all believers, and that is spread across all denominations. While some denominations are closer to the truth than others, God will use all of them to welcome believers in.

Having said that, if you feel like Catholicism might feel more 'right' than Lutheranism, by all means, explore it. I am officially Protestant in that I was not confirmed, but I have RC roots, and I feel at home in RC churches, with some exceptions.

 

[Winken]

"I learned to distinguish between the righteousness of the law and the righteousness of the gospel. I lacked nothing before this except that I made no distinction between the law and the gospel. I regarded both as the same thing and held that there was no difference between Christ and Moses except the times in which they lived and their degrees of perfection. But when I discovered the proper distinction—namely, that the law is one thing and the gospel is another—I made myself free." Martin Luther

(No comment.)

2 Timothy 2:15 KJV

 

[Sword of the Lord]

It's the way you said it! I admit to errors, always have. I'm the first to point them out! But what you said here:

Sounds like you believe at least some of the manure that some Protestants--along with Chick Tracts spread.

Do some real research--on the Lutheran church and their errors, as well as the Roman Catholics. Then do some research on the "other lung" of the Catholic Church, the 22 or so Eastern Catholic Churches. Read what the Church Fathers wrote. There is a lot of it on the internet, but you may have to borrow a few books too.

There's no problem with the way I said anything. Saying "what if they are correct" is a simple statement (question, actually). Any tone or other implication is solely on you. People such as @Michie and @eastcoast_bsc (Catholic members on my CF home forum: One Bread, One Body - Catholic) can attest to the fact that I don't hold or express genuine anti-Catholic views, no matter how much I might disagree with the Church on some issues. I'd suggest taking a step back and stop applying anti-Catholic views on to my post because of a perceived tone or implication, and wait for the actual words that would suggest that I'm anti-Catholic.

I'm not here for a theological debate. I'm not here to be convinced of Catholicism. I've spent the last 5 years learning about Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Lutheranism almost every single day. I chose Lutheranism a long time ago. I'd choose Orthodoxy if I left Lutheranism, but I have absolutely no plans to do so. The point of my thread isn't, "What should we be?" The point of my thread is worries and anxiety. As I said, I don't even know what advice I'm searching for. I needed to get this off my chest and read some opinions. We're firmly Lutheran; that isn't changing.

 

[FireDragon76]

I'm first to admit that a lot of mistakes were made from 800 to 1900 or so in the Catholic Church. But what Luther was mostly complaining about was the selling of indulgences, a practice that I find detestable.

Yeah, that was the real cause, which lead to the publishing of the 95 Theses... and the rest is history.

In response to Michie, I tend to think of Dostoevsky's Grand Inquisitor when I hear religious figures question freedom. Some conservative Catholics want to dump all the issues of their church on modernity, and I think that's a bit like being the judge of history before we can see its end.

Frankly, judging history is above my paygrade, but as somebody born in a white, northern european, secular protestant ethnic setting, I try not to be too harsh on my ancestors and the patrimony they have given me (Orthodoxy taught me that at least). Individual choice and intellectual freedom are fundamental to who I am.

The principle of conscience is something the modern Roman Catholic Church does acknowledge at least in theory, even if some Catholics are bothered by its implications. Thankfully, since Vatican II the RCC acknowledges the freedom to worship according to ones conscience. At the time of Luther, nobody enjoyed that right.

Truth be told, last year I could not manage to celebrate the 499th anniversary of the Reformation. It really did grieve me there are divisions between our churches. On the other hand, my pastor spent some time explaining to me the meaning of the Reformation for his church, and now I can honestly say I am willing to celebrate it this year, even if it was a tragic necessity. After all, it is the church I feel God lead me to and they embraced me as I am.

 

[faroukfarouk]

What matters is what the Scriptures teach, rather than how we may feel, at any given point in time. This is the decisive issue; and this is something that Luther and the Reformers so strongly emphasized.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

"The true church" is the body of Christ, i.e. all believers, and that is spread across all denominations. While some denominations are closer to the truth than others, God will use all of them to welcome believers in.

Having said that, if you feel like Catholicism might feel more 'right' than Lutheranism, by all means, explore it. I am officially Protestant in that I was not confirmed, but I have RC roots, and I feel at home in RC churches, with some exceptions.

I don't feel like Catholicism is right. I feel like we are where we belong. I also understand that I am a man. I guess I'm trying to figure out how I know that I'm right and that I did the right thing for my family, but I probably can't get that answer here or anywhere short of Heaven. I just know that if I never met these people they would be Catholic, and knowing that the RCC teaches that it's the One True Church (which I don't believe), it would be all my fault if the RCC is indeed right and they left it.

 

[Michie]

It's not your fault if you truly do not know. You are not culpable for that. If you thought the Church was the true Church that held the fullness of truth and still led them away from the RCC, then you would be culpable. But you know and I know that you do not believe the Church to be everything she says she is. As I said before, your faith is in Christ and the Lutheran Church is obviously where you feel you need to be at this point. You cannot deliberately lead a person astray from something you do not believe to be true.

I don't feel like Catholicism is right. I feel like we are where we belong. I also understand that I am a man. I guess I'm trying to figure out how I know that I'm right and that I did the right thing for my family, but I probably can't get that answer here or anywhere short of Heaven. I just know that if I never met these people they would be Catholic, and knowing that the RCC teaches that it's the One True Church (which I don't believe), it would be all my fault if the RCC is indeed right and they left it.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Being Lutheran and believing Catholicism is erroneous is not anti-Catholic.

But Luther began with error. Do you know that this good, Catholic monk suffered from OCD? Or the spiritual alternate, scrupulosity? He would go to Confession for 4 hours, pour out his soul to his confessor, walk out, then run back to spend another hour on the sins he felt he had committed in the time he walked out until he ran back. This is scrupulosity. Scrupulosity is a modern-day psychological problem that echoes a traditional use of the term scruples in a religious context, e.g. by Roman Catholics, to mean obsessive concern with one's own sins and compulsive performance of religious devotion. This use of the term dates to the 12th century. Several historical and religious figures suffered from doubts of sin, and expressed their pains. Ignatius of Loyola, founder of the Jesuits, wrote "After I have trodden upon a cross formed by two straws ... there comes to me from without a thought that I have sinned ... this is probably a scruple and temptation suggested by the enemy." Alphonsus Liguori, the Redemptorists' founder, wrote of it as "groundless fear of sinning that arises from 'erroneous ideas'". Although the condition was lifelong for Loyola and Liguori, Thérèse of Lisieux stated that she recovered from her condition after 18 months, writing "One would have to pass through this martyrdom to understand it well, and for me to express what I experienced for a year and a half would be impossible." Martin Luther also suffered from obsessive doubts; in his mind, his omitting the word enim during the Eucharist was as horrible as laziness, divorce, or murdering one's parent. (Thank you, Wikipedia)

One of Luther’s early tracts, Appeal to the Christian Nobility of the German Nation (1520), lays out the implications of his view in more detail:

Besides, if we are all priests, as was said above, and all have one faith, one Gospel, one sacrament, why should we not also have the power to test and judge what is correct or incorrect in matters of faith? What becomes of the words of Paul in I Corinthians 2:15: "He that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man," II Corinthians 4:13: "We have all the same Spirit of faith"? Why, then, should not we perceive what squares with faith and what does not, as well as does an unbelieving pope? Link

So let's not start with Luther's "tower experience" and believe that Luther got "Saved" in the terms of our fellow Christians, the Evangelicals. Believe that what happened to him was the same thing as I have compared to my "salvation" as beginning to cooperate with Christ.

I have no problem with that, save that in his case it led to error.

(No, I am not calling myself a saint, or even sinless. I have my own errors, but those are personality issues and sin in my own life that I am trying to blot out, with Jesus help.)

 

[faroukfarouk]

I don't feel like Catholicism is right. I feel like we are where we belong. I also understand that I am a man. I guess I'm trying to figure out how I know that I'm right and that I did the right thing for my family, but I probably can't get that answer here or anywhere short of Heaven. I just know that if I never met these people they would be Catholic, and knowing that the RCC teaches that it's the One True Church (which I don't believe), it would be all my fault if the RCC is indeed right and they left it.

Do you believe that what the Scriptures teach is true, for time and eternity? This is the larger question which counts far more than the way we may from time to time feel.

 

[Michie]

Just backing up Mikhael.

There's no problem with the way I said anything. Saying "what if they are correct" is a simple statement (question, actually). Any tone or other implication is solely on you. People such as @Michie and @eastcoast_bsc (Catholic members on my CF home forum: One Bread, One Body - Catholic) can attest to the fact that I don't hold or express genuine anti-Catholic views, no matter how much I might disagree with the Church on some issues. I'd suggest taking a step back and stop applying anti-Catholic views on to my post because of a perceived tone or implication, and wait for the actual words that would suggest that I'm anti-Catholic.

I'm not here for a theological debate. I'm not here to be convinced of Catholicism. I've spent the last 5 years learning about Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Lutheranism almost every single day. I chose Lutheranism a long time ago. I'd choose Orthodoxy if I left Lutheranism, but I have absolutely no plans to do so. The point of my thread isn't, "What should we be?" The point of my thread is worries and anxiety. As I said, I don't even know what advice I'm searching for. I needed to get this off my chest and read some opinions. We're firmly Lutheran; that isn't changing.

 

[FireDragon76]

Bold is mine. This is one of the reasons I asked for no anti-Catholicism. It is usually sarcasm or absurdly misinformed regurgitated information. This was both.

I think you are a conscientious person, judging by your responses. I think you have all the tools you need to figure this dilema out for yourself. These sort of things are often God working in our lives to call our attention to something. Not necessarily that you have a calling to become Catholic, but maybe there is something you need to learn.

 

[Monk Brendan]

I'm not here for a theological debate. I'm not here to be convinced of Catholicism. I've spent the last 5 years learning about Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Lutheranism almost every single day. I chose Lutheranism a long time ago. I'd choose Orthodoxy if I left Lutheranism, but I have absolutely no plans to do so. The point of my thread isn't, "What should we be?" The point of my thread is worries and anxiety. As I said, I don't even know what advice I'm searching for. I needed to get this off my chest and read some opinions. We're firmly Lutheran; that isn't changing.

Expression can truly be a part of the message. I once wrote a newscaster that the way he was saying things was simply improper grammar. He then thanked me, and the grammar on his newscast has improve. That makes him and his staff more believable.

I have no argument with you being Lutheran. It sounds that you and your family have done a good thing. Nor do I think that you have led them astray.

 

[LaSorcia]

I don't feel like Catholicism is right. I feel like we are where we belong. I also understand that I am a man. I guess I'm trying to figure out how I know that I'm right and that I did the right thing for my family, but I probably can't get that answer here or anywhere short of Heaven. I just know that if I never met these people they would be Catholic, and knowing that the RCC teaches that it's the One True Church (which I don't believe), it would be all my fault if the RCC is indeed right and they left it.

Well then there you go. Don't worry, God, through the Holy Spirit, will speak to the other members of your family as well as you. If everyone is happy being Lutheran, and you are hearing from God on that path, then there is no mistake.

Who can say what path is ideal? There might be an ideal denomination, but depending on where you live, and what churches are available there, I think that God will lead you/us there.

Amen brother, and be at peace. Pray for discernment. If God's telling you to go somewhere else, go. If not, then grow as much as you can where you are.

 

[FireDragon76]

What matters is what the Scriptures teach, rather than how we may feel, at any given point in time. This is the decisive issue; and this is something that Luther and the Reformers so strongly emphasized.

Yeah, but Luther had a doctorate in theology and was well aware of the historical theology of the period. He was not a modern individualist with only a highschool education and a Bible. His tower experience was only part of the picture. He was not simply thumbing through the Bible one day and it hit him in a flash. As David Yeago, the Lutheran historical theologian points out in many of his works, it took years for him to develop his ideas based on reflecting on the Catholic patrimony in his own context. It did not come to him by the Holy Spirit just dropping on him and having a revelation.

 

[miknik5]

I don't know where else to place this thread. If I place it in the Lutheran forum, by people are going to tell me that I'm correct by default; if I place it in the Catholic forum, people are going to tell me that I'm incorrect by default. I'm also not sure of what advice, exactly, that I'm looking for, but nevertheless...

My wife was raised in a strict Catholic family. Ideally, she was to marry a Catholic and have a Catholic family. But then she met me, an atheist at the time. After awhile, she gave up her faith because she followed my lead and (poor) logic on how religion is stupid, fake, and irrational. But then several years ago, at random, out of the blue, with no warning or rational explanation, Jesus came to me in the most vivid dream I have ever had, and he told me, "Michael, forgiveness is yours; just believe and ask." I immediately woke up in sweat and tears and gave my life to him right then and there. I soon became a Lutheran, and my wife followed my lead, abandoning her Catholic upbringing and fully embracing Lutheranism. Throughout these years I have become exceptionally educated on Scripture and Theology, and my faith is radical, for better or worse, as is her faith. I plan to go to Concordia Seminary soon.

A couple of years ago, my mother-in-law began attending our church. It was a slow process for her, but she abandoned Catholicism and was confirmed as a Lutheran of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod a few weeks ago. She is now working on her own mother and showing her own life long Catholic mother the errors and additions of the Catholic Church.

Lutheranism feels so 'right'. I don't believe that Jesus would personally come to me, a militant atheist not far from being Saul himself in regards to my hatred of Christians and Christ, and save me, in the process saving my family, and then let us go astray and worship him in a false way, in a false faith. We must be right where he wants us. To me this is logical - at least that is my belief.

My wife and I now have 4 children, who are all Lutherans as well. Here's what keeps me up at night sometimes: What if - just what if - Catholicism is correct (I don't believe that it is), that it is the One True Church, and I, being the head of my family, have lead these people who were once part of Christ's Church (assuming now that the Catholic Church is his One True Church) astray? What if I intruded into their lives, and I lead a complete family away from Christ? It's very, very unlikely that they would have ceased to be Catholics without having met me. It would have been better for me to have never been born, or to have had a millstone fastened around my neck and been cast into the sea, if that's the case.

Final Note: No anti-Catholicism. That does nothing for us here. We are not anti-Catholic. We respect their faith and traditions. We simply believe, like Luther, that they are completely and utterly wrong about some things, and we can't accept that. I don't need piles of Scripture proving the Church is some beast, that it's wrong, or pagan references. Thank you.

ONE FOUNDATION
It appears sir that you and your family are standing on it

 

[faroukfarouk]

Yeah, but Luther had a doctorate in theology and was well aware of the historical theology of the period. He was not a modern individualist with only a highschool education and a Bible. His tower experience was only part of the picture. He was not simply thumbing through the Bible one day and it hit him in a flash. As David Yeago, the Lutheran historical theologian points out, it took years for him to develop his ideas. IT did not come to him by the Holy Spirit just dropping on him and having a revelation.

Again, I think you are being derogatory about those who trust God's Word; but I am not offended because believers can expect the offence of the Cross. Again, the Luther quote, above in post #76, is quite at variance from your claim that Luther himself had more confidence in his doctorate and the ecclesiastical system than in the simple merits of Christ received by faith.

We are not on the same page. We should maybe leave it there.

 

[FireDragon76]

but I am not offended because believers can expect the offence of the Cross.

You're just hiding behind anti-intellectualism now... and missing my point entirely.