What great City is being symbolized in Revelation?

Is Jerusalem 70 ad the great City in Revelation?

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LittleLambofJesus

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I saw this thread on Jerusalem being shown as the great City in Revelation at the link below, [but would like to add a poll thread to mine]


https://www.christianforums.com/thr...7-18-was-jerusalem-unfaithful-israel.8041995/
Babylon of Revelation 17-18 was Jerusalem/unfaithful Israel

OP:
Who is the woman on the beast in Revelation 17-18?
_______________________________________________________________
The woman is the great city
Revelation 17:18
And the woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

A.)the great city is Jerusalem
Revelation 11:8
Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city—figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where their Lord was also crucified.

B.) Peter states that the church in Jerusalem, is in Babylon.
1 Peter 5:13
She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings, and so does Mark, my son.
________________________________________________________________
Punishment for the woman in Revelation 17-18

A.)God uses the beast and 10 horns to desolate the woman, who is unfaithful Jerusalem.
Revelation 17:16-17
And the ten horns and the beast that you saw will hate the prostitute. They will leave her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17For God has put it into their hearts to carry out His purpose by uniting to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.
________________________________________________________________________
Why was the woman punished?

A.) she killed the saint of Jesus
Revelation 17:6
could see that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and of the witnesses for Jesus. And I was greatly astonished at the sight of her.

B.) She killed the prophets and saints
Revelation 18:24
And there was found in her the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who had been slain on the earth.

C.) Her sins were piled to heaven
Revelation 18:5
For her sins are piled up to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.

D.) She had been immoral with other nations
Revelation 18:3
All the nations have drunkc the wine of the passion of her immorality.
The kings of the earth were immoral with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown wealthy through the extravagance of her luxury.”
_________________________________________________________________________

When did her punishment occur?

When Jesus said it would, on the generation of his audience:

matthew 23:35
And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Revelation 18:24
And there was found in her the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who had been slain on the earth.
_________________________________________________________________________

The woman was unfaithful Jerusalem (israel), who was made desolate by the roman armies because of all the righteous blood it had spilled.
 

LittleLambofJesus

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Let's look at a few verses from the NT concerning Jerusalem in the 1st century and it's relation to the Great City shown in Revelation:

Matthew 23
37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold! your House is left unto you desolate.
javascript:void(null);

Matthew 24:
1
And Jesus coming out, He went from the Temple, and His Disciples came toward Him to show to Him the buildings of the Temple
2 and Jesus is saying to them "Not ye see all these?
Amen I am saying to ye, not no be being left here stone upon stone, which not shall be being thrown down" [Mark 21:5/Luke 19:44]

Luke 19:
41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments on Her,
42 saying, "That if Thou-knew, and Thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward peace of Thee, now yet it was hid from Thy eyes.
43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee, and Thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to Thee, and shall be encompassing Thee, and pressing Thee every which place.

44 And they shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in Thee,
and
not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee, instead which not Thou knew the time of Thy visitation/overseeing/inspection".

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

..............The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover.............
.......The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins............

In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely leveled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings.
Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people, who gloried in its impregnable strength, entirely depopulated, and leveled with the ground.

And thus, also was our LORD'S prediction, that her enemies should "lay her even with the ground," and "should not leave in her one stone upon another, " (Luke xix. 44.) most strikingly and fully accomplished ! -- This fact is confirmed by Eusebius, who asserts that he himself saw the city lying in ruins ; and Josephus introduces Eleazer as exclaiming "Where is our great city, which, it was believed, GOD inhabited ? It is altogether rooted and torn up from its foundations ; and the only monument of it that remains, is the camp of its destroyers pitched amidst its reliques !"



Revelation 14:8
And another Messenger, second-one follows saying "She falls, She falls, Babylon the Great,
the out of the wine of the fury of the fornication of her she has given to drink all the nations".
 
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Revealing Times

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I saw this thread on Jerusalem being shown as the great City in Revelation at the link below, [but would like to add a poll thread to mine]


https://www.christianforums.com/thr...7-18-was-jerusalem-unfaithful-israel.8041995/
Babylon of Revelation 17-18 was Jerusalem/unfaithful Israel

OP:
There were many GREAT CITIES. Babylon, Rome, Jerusalem, Damascus etc. etc. But like most of the book of Revelation much of the time we get Metaphors. Anything to do with Babylon is speaking about the whole world. Babel = CONFUSION. Babylon thus = the WHOLE WORLD that follows the Anti-Christ/Beast and Worships the Red Dragon in the end times.

Babylon has fallen means Jesus has taken back the title deed to this world. Confusion is over.

Rev. 16:19 can not be any clearer about WHO Babylon is.

Rev. 16:19 And the great city(Jerusalem/Earthquake) was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell (Babylon FALLS): and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Who falls at Armageddon ? Well its not God/Jesus so its who comes against him, so who was that?

Rev. 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

The Beast leads all of Europe,and the Kings of the East IMHO is Iran, Iraq and nations around the Euphrates. Then we have the THREE SPIRITS (Demon Frogs) that gather Kings from THE WHOLE WORLD !! So it couldn't be any clearer, the Cities who FALL are from all around the WHOLE WORLD and they are seen as Babylon by God, who then gives them his Wine-press of Wrath.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The denarius is also mentioned in Revelation, which was the currency of Rome on the 1st century,
This verse appears to denote famine and distress that fell upon 1st Jerusalem [more on that in next post]

Revelation 6:6

And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "choinex of grain/wheat a denarius and three choinex of barleys a denarius,
and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring". [Revelation 18:13]

It is also used in the 3 Gospels:

Matthew 22:
18
But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why make ye trial of me, ye hypocrites?
19 Show me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a denarius.
20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
21They say unto him, Caesar's.............

Mark 12:
15 Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them,
Why make ye trial of me? bring me a denarius, that I may see it.
16 And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's.

Luke 20:
23 But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them,
24 Show me a denarius. Whose image and superscription hath it? And they said, Caesar's.
 
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Douggg

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The great cities in Revelation are:

Jerusalem - literal Jerusalem in Revelation 11
Mystery Babylon the Great - metaphorical Babylon - in Revelation 17, 18, 16.

Babylon the Great is the invisible kingdom of Satan and his angels exerting dominion over the earth.

The strength of Satan's kingdom was found in Rome at the time of John.

When the seventh trumpet sounds, God begins dismantling Satan's kingdom. Beginning with the war in the second heaven and Satan and his angels cast down to earth - Babylon is fallen is fallen! is fallen! And is compared to the sudden demise of a great trading city in Revelation 18. In Revelation 16:19-20, the last reminders of Satan's dying kingdom will be destroyed.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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WRATH AND FAMINE/DISTRESS IN LUKE 21:23 JERUSALEM 70AD

Mat 24:19
But woe to those that are with child, and those that give suck in those days.

MarL 13:17
But woe to those that are with child and to those that give suck in those days!
Luke 21:23
But woe to them that are with child and to them who give suck in those days,
for there shall be
great distress upon the land and wrath/ὀργὴ<2709> upon this people.

The exact form of the greek word #2709 used in Luke 21:23 occurs only 1 time in Revelation:


Revelation 11:18
And the nations were wroth, and Thy wrath/ὀργὴ<2709> came,
and the time of the dead to be judged, and the time to give their reward to Thy servants the prophets,


Anyone read Josephus' acct of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad?

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen.

In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal;
and had actually eaten one half thereof, when the soldiers, allured by tile smell of food, threatened her with instant death if she refused to discover it. .....
At the recital of this melancholy and affecting occurrence, the whole city stood aghast, and poured forth their congratulations on those whom death had hurried away from such heartrending scenes..................

Revelation 9:6
In those days men will seek the death and will not find it;

they will desire to die, and the death will flee from them.

Revelation 6:8
And I saw, and behold, a pale horse: and he that sat upon him, his name was Death; and Hades followed with him.
And there was given unto them authority over the fourth part of the land,
to kill with sword, and with famine, and with death,

and by the wild beasts of the land.

Revelation 18:8
by this, in one day shall be arriving the blows of Her,

death and sorrow and famine;
and in fire She shall be being burned,
that strong Lord, the God, the one judging Her
 
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seventysevens

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Matthew 24 is about 95% prophecy that is yet to come , but I realize that some people prefer to follow amil that is strange to say the least , and suppose that Jesus was saying that he would come in the generation he was speaking to is strange enough ; but to try to use scripture that was written about 25 years after 70 AD fails entirely , the Book of Revelation is all about the revealing of Jesus return and has zero/zilch/nothing to do with 70 AD
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Double doubles:

Isaiah 40:2
Comfort, comfort my people, says your God.
Speak tenderly to Jerusalem and proclaim to her that her hard service has been completed,
that Her sin has been paid for,
that She has received from the Lord's hands, doubles for all Her sins.


Revelation 18
4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying,Come out of Her, My people,

lest you share in Her sins, and lest you receive of Her blows/stripes.
5For Her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
6 Render to Her as also she did render to ye,
and double ye to Her the doubles according to Her works;

in the cup that She did mingle, mingle to Her double.[Isaiah 40:2]
 
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BABerean2

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Matthew 23
37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold! your House is left unto you desolate.


Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.



.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
.
Nice verse.... I noticed you didn't vote.........

Let's look at the greek word for "street<4113>"

Strong's Number G4113 matches the Greek πλατεῖα (plateia), which occurs 9 times in 9 verses
Matthew 6:5, Matthew 12:19, Luke 10:10, Luke 13:26, Luke 14:21, Acts 5:15,
Revelation 11:8, Revelation 21:21, Revelation 22:22


Old Jerusalem:

Revelation 11:
8 And their dead bodies lie in the street<4113> of the great City, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.


New Jerusalem

Revelation 21:21
And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the several gates was of one pearl:
and the street<4113> of the City was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.


Heb 12:22
But ye have come to Mount Zion and to the City of the living God,

the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,

Revelation 22:
1 And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb,
2 in the midst of the street<4113> thereof.

And on this side of the river and on that was the tree of life, bearing twelve manner of fruits, yielding its fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The phrase "great tribulation" occurs in only 3 verses of the NT: 2 of those in Revelation.

Strong's Number G2347 matches the Greek θλῖψις (thlipsis), which occurs 45 times in 43 verses

Matthew 24:
19
But woe to those that are with child, and those that give suck in those days.
21
“For then there will be a great tribulation<2347>, such as has not occurred since the beginning of world until now, nor ever will. [Daniel 12:1]

Mark uses only "tribulation"

Mark 13:
17
But woe to those that are with child and to those that give suck in those days!
19
For those days shall be tribulation<2347>, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be. [Daniel 12:1]

The greek word for tribulation #2347 is never used once in the Gospel of Luke.

Instead he uses the phrase "great distress/necessity", which is also the word used in Daniel 12:1. Interesting

Luke 21:23

"Woe to the ones in belly having and the ones suckling in those the Days!
For shall be great distress/necessity<318> upon the land and wrath upon the people, this. [Daniel 12:1]

Daniel 12:
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of distress<6869>, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
9 And he said, "Go thy way, Daniel; for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end.

Revelation 22:10
And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is nigh.
 
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shilohsfoal

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The phrase "great tribulation" occurs in only 3 verses of the NT: 2 of those in Revelation.

Strong's Number G2347 matches the Greek θλῖψις (thlipsis), which occurs 45 times in 43 verses

Matthew 24:
19
But woe to those that are with child, and those that give suck in those days.
21 “For then there will be a great tribulation<2347>, such as has not occurred since the beginning of world until now, nor ever will. [Daniel 12:1]

Mark uses only "tribulation"

Mark 13:
17
But woe to those that are with child and to those that give suck in those days!
19 For those days shall be tribulation<2347>, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be. [Daniel 12:1]

The greek word for tribulation #2347 is never used once in the Gospel of Luke.

Instead he uses the phrase "great distress/necessity", which is also the word used in Daniel 12:1. Interesting

Luke 21:23

"Woe to the ones in belly having and the ones suckling in those the Days!
For shall be great distress/necessity<318> upon the land and wrath upon the people, this. [Daniel 12:1]

Daniel 12:
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people; and there shall be a time of distress<6869>, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
9 And he said, "Go thy way, Daniel; for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end.

Revelation 22:10
And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is nigh.


Jesus said great tribulation .such that has never been,,nor ever will be.

6 million Jews who died during the holocaust would argue the tribulation they suffetd was greater than that of 70 ad.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Jesus said great tribulation .such that has never been,,nor ever will be.
6 million Jews who died during the holocaust would argue the tribulation they suffetd was greater than that of 70 ad.
One could argue that, and though the Nazis used furnaces to burn the Jews, that happened in Europe not Jerusalem in 70ad, which is the Great City shown in Revelation.......those with ears to hear and eyes to see...........

Look at Ezekiel's prophecy against the Jews and Jerusalem, and compare that with Revelation 15.
Do we really want to see the Jews go thru a 3rd horrific "holocaust"?

Ezekiel 22:

17 The word of the LORD came to me, saying,
18 "Son of man! the house of Israel has become dross to Me;
they [are] all bronze, tin, iron, and lead, in the midst of a furnace; they have become dross from silver.
19 "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: 'Because you have all become dross, therefore behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem.

20 '[As men] gather silver, bronze, iron, lead, and tin into the midst of a furnace, to blow fire on it, to melt [it;] so I will gather [you] in My anger and in My fury, and I will leave [you there] and melt you.
21 'Yes, I will gather you and blow on you with the fire of My wrath, and you shall be melted in its midst.
22 'As silver is melted in the midst of a furnace, so shall you be melted in its midst;

then you shall know that I, the LORD, have poured out My fury on you.' "[Revelation 15:1]

Revelation 15:1

And I perceived another sign in the heaven, great and marvelous. Seven Messengers having seven stripes/blows, the last,
that in them is finished the fury/qumoV <2372> of the GOD..............


http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah!
At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival. How suitable and how kind, then, was the prophetic admonition of our LORD, and how clearly he into futurity when he said "Let not them that are in the countries enter into Jerusalem." Luke xxi. 21. [Ezekiel 22]


Nevertheless, the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance ; and, according to Josephus this event took place suddenly..............

The Romans having become masters of the lower city, set it on fire.
The Jews now fled to the higher, from whence, their pride and insolence yet unabated, they continued to exasperate their enemies and even appeared to view the burning of the town below them with tokens of pleasure.............

They first plundered, and then set fire to the houses. They ranged through the streets with drawn swords in their hands, murdering every Jew whom they met, without distinction ; till at length, the bodies of the dead choked up all the alleys and narrow passes while their blood literally flowed down the channels of the city in streams.

Meanwhile the Temple continued burning, until at length, vast as was its size, the flames completely enveloped the, whole building ; which, from the extent of the conflagration, impressed the distant spectator with an idea that the whole city was now on fire. The tumult and disorder which ensued upon this event, it is impossible (says Josephus) for language to describe...........


Revelation 18:
10 From afar having stood because of the fear of her torment, saying, Woe, woe, the great City! Babylon, the strong city! because in one hour did come thy judgment.
18 and cry out at the sight of the smoke rising from the fire that consumes her, saying, ‘What city was ever like this great City?’
19 Then they will throw dust on their heads as they weep and mourn and cry out: “Woe, woe to the great City, where all who had ships on the sea were enriched by her wealth! For in a single hour she has been desolated.”

Matthew 24:2
and Jesus said to them, `Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you,
There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be being thrown-down.'


Mark 13:
1 And as he is going forth out of the Temple, one of his disciples saith to him, `Teacher, see! what stones! and what buildings!'
2 and Jesus answering said to him, `Seest thou these great buildings?
there may not be left a stone upon a stone, that may not be thrown down.'


Luke 21:6
`These things that ye behold--days will come,
in which there shall not be left a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.'


Luke 19:44
“and level you, and your children within you, to the ground;
and they will not leave in you one stone upon another,

because you did not know the time of your visitation.”



 
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shilohsfoal

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One could argue that, and though the Nazis used furnaces to burn the Jews, that happened in Europe not Jerusalem in 70ad, which is the Great City shown in Revelation.......those with ears to hear and eyes to see...........

Look at Ezekiel's prophecy against the Jews and Jerusalem, and compare that with Revelation 15.
Do we really want to see the Jews go thru a 3rd horrific "holocaust"?

Ezekiel 22:

17 The word of the LORD came to me, saying,
18 "Son of man! the house of Israel has become dross to Me;
they [are] all bronze, tin, iron, and lead, in the midst of a furnace; they have become dross from silver.
19 "Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: 'Because you have all become dross, therefore behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem.

20 '[As men] gather silver, bronze, iron, lead, and tin into the midst of a furnace, to blow fire on it, to melt [it;] so I will gather [you] in My anger and in My fury, and I will leave [you there] and melt you.
21 'Yes, I will gather you and blow on you with the fire of My wrath, and you shall be melted in its midst.
22 'As silver is melted in the midst of a furnace, so shall you be melted in its midst;

then you shall know that I, the LORD, have poured out My fury on you.' "[Revelation 15:1]

Revelation 15:1

And I perceived another sign in the heaven, great and marvelous. Seven Messengers having seven stripes/blows, the last,
that in them is finished the fury/qumoV <2372> of the GOD..............


http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah!
At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival. How suitable and how kind, then, was the prophetic admonition of our LORD, and how clearly he into futurity when he said "Let not them that are in the countries enter into Jerusalem." Luke xxi. 21. [Ezekiel 22]


Nevertheless, the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance ; and, according to Josephus this event took place suddenly..............

The Romans having become masters of the lower city, set it on fire.
The Jews now fled to the higher, from whence, their pride and insolence yet unabated, they continued to exasperate their enemies and even appeared to view the burning of the town below them with tokens of pleasure.............

They first plundered, and then set fire to the houses. They ranged through the streets with drawn swords in their hands, murdering every Jew whom they met, without distinction ; till at length, the bodies of the dead choked up all the alleys and narrow passes while their blood literally flowed down the channels of the city in streams.

Meanwhile the Temple continued burning, until at length, vast as was its size, the flames completely enveloped the, whole building ; which, from the extent of the conflagration, impressed the distant spectator with an idea that the whole city was now on fire. The tumult and disorder which ensued upon this event, it is impossible (says Josephus) for language to describe...........


Revelation 18:
10 From afar having stood because of the fear of her torment, saying, Woe, woe, the great City! Babylon, the strong city! because in one hour did come thy judgment.
18 and cry out at the sight of the smoke rising from the fire that consumes her, saying, ‘What city was ever like this great City?’
19 Then they will throw dust on their heads as they weep and mourn and cry out: “Woe, woe to the great City, where all who had ships on the sea were enriched by her wealth! For in a single hour she has been desolated.”

Matthew 24:2
and Jesus said to them, `Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you,
There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be being thrown-down.'


Mark 13:
1 And as he is going forth out of the Temple, one of his disciples saith to him, `Teacher, see! what stones! and what buildings!'
2 and Jesus answering said to him, `Seest thou these great buildings?
there may not be left a stone upon a stone, that may not be thrown down.'


Luke 21:6
`These things that ye behold--days will come,
in which there shall not be left a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.'


Luke 19:44
“and level you, and your children within you, to the ground;
and they will not leave in you one stone upon another,

because you did not know the time of your visitation.”



According to the word of God.
What are the people called who destroy Babylon?
Which people,by name?
 
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