What does the term "rapture" means to you - other than the dictionary definition of "upcatching"?

iamlamad · Aug 20, 2023

oikonomia said:
But you see, no one comes to the Father except through the Son of God. (John 14:6)
People before the new testament age, are they not also inevitably "in Christ?"

I do not presume to know HOW pre-church age saved are all eventually put "in Christ".

The classical theory is that Jesus preached to them in Hades so they all got born again and Jesus emptied Abraham's bosom and took them all to heaven. I believe it.

None of them died in the position of being "in Christ" so their resurrection cannot be with the church. Anyway, read John 6: Jesus, speaking to Old Testament saints, said He would raise them up "on the last day."

Did you notice in Matthew 27, when Jesus died, there was a great earthquake? That was God opening the graves and probably pulling together the "dust" that once made up the elder's bodies (I believe at that time Jesus raised the elders of the OT when He rose) which caused that earthquake. Then, three days and three nights later, Jesus resurrected them. They came out of their graves at Jesus' resurrection. My point is, when God resurrects those long dead, I believe it is going to cause an earthquake. (I believe there is a good called "Earthquake Resurrection."

I believe the rapture will come a moment before the 6th seal is opened, and the great earthquake at the 6th seal will be caused by God resurrecting the dead in Christ. It is going to be the first worldwide earthquake, for the dead in Christ are found around the world.

If we research "the last day" I believe it will happen at the 7th bowl. Notice there the world's worst ever earthquake. I believe that is when God raises those saints from before the great flood.

iamlamad · Aug 20, 2023

oikonomia said:
I believe two different groups are revealed with the number of perfection associated with them.
Chapter 7 - 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel.
Chapter 14 - 144,000 Firstfruits who follow the Lamb alive into heaven before the GT.

Revelation is a book of climax of both Old Testament promises and New Testament promises.
Many dear Christians tend to give most of the weight in Revelation to fulfillment of New Testament promises to the church.
I would encourage such to be enlarged some. Revelation also concludes some matters related to old covenant Israel.

As God reserved for Himself in Elijah's time 7,000 who had not bowed the knee to Baal,
similarly the vision of a remnant from the 12 tribes indicates God's preservation of national Israel THROUGH the GT.

While some believers move to the conclusion that these 144,000 Jews will be great evangelists, nothing at all
is said about thier activity. We only see that they are selected to be preserved.

The flavor of their preservation has more of an Old Testament tone than the flavor of the 144,000 FIrstfruits in chapter 14.
1.) The directions to seal them comes not from the Lamb but from "another Angel" (v.7:2). While here as well as other places
in Revelation "Another Angel" should mean Christ. BUT He is designated like His Old Testament manifestation as "the Angel of Jehovah."
IMO the flavor is of Christ in His old covenant characteristics keeping promise to the Israelites. (See Gen. 22:11-12; Exo. 3:2-6; Judges 6:11-24; Zech. 1:11-12; 2:8-11; 3:1-7).

2.) In contrast to this the manifestation of Christ in chapter 14 is more related to the new covenant "the Lamb" (14: 1,4)

3.) Where as the 144,000 sealed in chapter 7 are preserved by "the seal of the living God" (7:2) the 144,000 of chapter 14
are related to "His [the Lamb's] name and the name of His Father".

4.) Whereas the 144,000 of chapter 7 are referred to as "the slaves of our God"(7:3) the more intimate life relationship
of the Firstfruits in chapter 14 is to "His [the Lamb's] Father" (14:1)

Both groups are assured ownership by God as the mark of preservation is on their foreheads.

5.) Just taking what we are told in the two respective chapters ALL WE KNOW . . . is the Jews are preserved and Firstfruits are raptured.

That the 144,000 Jews are great end time evangelists is only speculation.
And it is usually based on the faulty assumption that NO gospel preaching Christians will be LEFT on the earth
after a pre-great tribulation rapture of the whole church.

That the 144,000 of the twelve tribes in chapter 7 are latter raptured to stand with Christ on some heavenly Mount Zion in chapter 14
is also speculation. Most likely it is based on God using the same number signifying a.) a remnant b.) perfection of some sort.

6.) All we are TOLD from chapter 7 is that these 144,000 are sealed that they be not harmed by the damaging of the judging four winds
during the GT. Speculate if you wish that they are SEALED in addition that they may be raptured. It just says they are sealed to be protected.

And I saw another Angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and He cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom authority was given to harm the earth and the sea,
Saying, Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the slaves of our God upon their foreheads. (7:2,3)

7.) In fact in chapter 7 we are told NOTHING about their spiritual condition. We are only told that the living God has
SEALED them for protection and preservation.

In contrast the 144,000 Firstfruits of chapter 14 are followers of the Lamb where ever He goes. They being redeemed from the earth (raptured)
are for the Lamb and the Father's satisfaction. They are a testimony to thier being a pleasure to the Father and the Son.

8.) During the great tribulation we are told that TWO classes of people will stand against the persecution of the Antichrist.
1.) Those who keep the commandments of God.
2.) Those who have the testimony of Jesus. (Or those who have "the faith of Jesus." )

And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus. (Rev. 12:17)

Here is the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (Rev. 14:12)

This does not mean that the Jews on earth at that time are successful in keeping all the commandments.
I think it means that they DO resist Antichrist by keeping the commandment that no other god can replace the God of Israel.

Also in Revelation 12 and 14 though in one sense the two groups are distinct, they are also seen as one entity.
1.) "the rest of her seed" of the persecuted bright woman of light. (12:17)
2.) "the saints" (14:12)

During the 3.5 year great tribulation especially monotheistic Jews undergo persecution and monotheistic Christians also.

Some might pushback saying Christians must keep the commandments of God once they have the faith of Jesus.
However, I think the order in that case would reflect this by putting "the faith of Jesus" or "the testimony of Jesus" BEFORE "keep the commandments of God."

I'll let you consider these points before writing more.
Bottom line is that I would teach perfection of preservation is over a remnant of the twelve tribes through the GT.
And a perfection of pleasingness in following Christ causes some living believers to be rapture as Firstfruits EARLY
before the start of the GT.

It is the SAME PEOPLE...all 144,000 of them! First seen being sealed, then seen later already in heaven.

iamlamad · Aug 20, 2023

Jonathan_Gale said:
I just believe that the end time events should be dissociated from Daniel's 70th week. Those 70 weeks were a contimuum, there's no gap between the 69th and the 70th week. The 70 weeks were already fulfilled by Jesus in his FIRST coming, period.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

69 weeks ends with the red text. The next event written is Jesus' death. AFTER the 69 weeks but before the 70th. Then next Daniel wrote of the destruction of the temple, AFTER the 69 weeks but BEFORE the 70th week. Finally, some unknown time AFTER the destruction of the temple will come the 70th week.

In other words, Daniel wrote it a gap as big as Texas.

iamlamad · Aug 20, 2023

oikonomia said:
Greetings IamIamad. I will try to catch up on some comments to me you made.
The analogy you employ there on inserted visions between the seals is pretty good.

I would teach that the insertion of the two preservations in chapter 7 should be understood like this:
Verses 1 through 8 assure the seer that THROUGH the 3.5 year great tribulation a remnant of Israelites are assured to be preserved.
Verses 9 -17 is showing in a general way that through all history's tribulation God will preserve His total elect from eternal judgment.

Thanks for your compliment. Why not just stick very closely to what is written? They are sealed for their protection, and in particular their protection from the Stinging Locusts. Do you know that the days of great tribulation (GT) will not begin until some unknown time after the abomination event that will divide the week, and will certainly not last the entire 3.5 years of the last half of the future 70th week?

I believe John makes it clear that the days of GT Jesus spoke of will not begin until late in chapter 14, after God has send angels to warn the people. Then, "those days" of "great tribulation" (quotes from Mat. 24) will begin. However, they will not last until the end of the week, for God will send angels with plagues and bowls of His wrath to SHORTEN those days. The final 1260 days will certainly take place, but they will not all be days of GT. They will just be dark days of dread, as people sit in the dark, gnawing their tongues for pain, and wonder what God will do next.

For the most part, the book of Revelation is a Jewish book for the Jewish people. It is THEIR 70th week which goes in the book from chapter 8 to chapter 16. Then the next two chapters show the destruction of Jerusalem, the "great city." Then in chapter 19, Jesus returns TO Jerusalem. It is a Jewish book. However, God in HIs great mercy allowed John to see the just raptured church in heaven, before the start of the 70th week at the 7th seal. Father God, thanks for this picture of you keeping the church out of your Wrath!

iamlamad · Aug 20, 2023

oikonomia said:
I asked myself one day - "At what time in history would God have ALL the saved in the heaven?"
What no one ever taught me but I thought of myself, was the time when at the great white throne when earth and heaven flee away.

Did you not understand that in Revelation 19, both the NT saints and the OT saints are all in heaven together for the marriage and supper? The NT saints arrived in heaven by way of the pre-trib rapture. The OT saints will arrive "on the last day" at the 7th bowl being poured out that will END the 70th week. Also at this time the beheaded tribulation saints will be resurrected.

iamlamad · Aug 20, 2023

oikonomia said:
This seems like what I would teach. Only all of history includes retroactively pre-church saved who all come to the Father only through
the Son of God one way or another. To me there are some unknowns or not well knowns about how God will retroactively put all
people of every epoch under Christ's redemption and into the tabernacle of God.

We the church, and without a doubt, the OT saints with the church, will all return to earth on white horse as the armies of heaven. We will be judges in Resurrection bodies while many people who survived the sheep and goat judgment will be living in natural bodies. They will repopulate the earth during the millennial reign.

The bible does not say where all the saints will be when this old heaven and earth disappear. Maybe it does: maybe we will all be in the Holy City as it descends to the new earth.

iamlamad · Aug 20, 2023

2PhiloVoid said:
Yes, that much you're correct on. It's been a while since I've studied eschatology and/or the greek that Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

Nevertheless, citing it in the Koine Greek doesn't mean any of us understands the term, let alone that it signifies a 'rapture' in any way which a modern Dispensationalist would mean it. And since I'm no Dispensationalist, I'm not overly concerned with guessing as to its exact meaning since I don't think any of us really knows.

You're "amazed"? Well, I'm glad someone is ...

It's speculation.

How can it be speculation when John saw the just-rapture church already in heaven and wrote it in chapter 7 of His book? They were raptured, as Paul told us, just before the Day of the Lord which will begin at the 6th seal. John saw them just after that. If the rapture were posttrib, John would have seen them and wrote of them in chapter 16, 17, or 18 of Revelation.

If the rapture were after the days of GT, God would have shown that part of the vision to John somewhere in chapter 16, after the bowls - because the bowls will stop the murdering of the saints.

iamlamad · Aug 20, 2023

Jonathan_Gale said:
The term “firstfruit” is one term, which refers to the original festival ordained by God. It doesn’t mean much to us, not even to most Jews, but that’s one of God’s appointed time on God’s schedule. You gotta let the Bible interpret itself, it’s like any book series where there’s a universal setting, and the latter books is full of references from earlier books, and none of those references make any sense unless you’re read the earlier books.

We can understand that the firstfruits as the first "fruit" of every crop that turns ripe. it could be barley, wheat, or a pomegranate. It was always taken to the temple and given to the Lord. Since these 144,000 will be the first Jews (outside of those born again who will go up in the rapture) into heaven, I think firstfruits fits them well.

iamlamad · Aug 20, 2023

Jonathan_Gale said:
That’s the end, post-trib, the return of Jesus on a white horse as the king of kings and lord of lords.

No, in Paul's rapture passage of 1 Thes. 4 & 5, Paul explains that the rapture of the church will come BEFORE the start of the Day of the Lord and before the start of God's wrath.

This is confirmed in Revelation because God showed John the raptured church in heaven (the great crowd too large to number) in chapter 7. John does not even begin the 70th week or "tribulation" until the 7th seal. Since six always comes before seven in counting, we can be sure the rapture will be pretrib. If the rapture was post-trib, the church would miss its own marriage ceremony which will take place in heaven BEFORE Christ descends.

If the rapture were post-trib, there would be no sheep for the sheep and goat judgment, for they would all have resurrection bodies.

2PhiloVoid · Aug 20, 2023

iamlamad said:
How can it be speculation when John saw the just-rapture church already in heaven and wrote it in chapter 7 of His book? They were raptured, as Paul told us, just before the Day of the Lord which will begin at the 6th seal. John saw them just after that. If the rapture were posttrib, John would have seen them and wrote of them in chapter 16, 17, or 18 of Revelation.

If the rapture were after the days of GT, God would have shown that part of the vision to John somewhere in chapter 16, after the bowls - because the bowls will stop the murdering of the saints.

The problem here is that no one has to assume that Dispensationalists are correct where the book of Revelation is concerned. This means that we don't really "know" what the Great Tribulation is, or when it is (or has been). It also means that we don't "know" that the multitude from the Tribulation is a raptured church.

Your conditional statements are just that, conditional. Unfortunately, we don't really know all of this. All we can know is that there is some aspect of history that is called "the Great Tribulation" and that a multitude is to have come through it. Probably by way of having died rather than via a rapture.

Jonathan_Gale · Aug 20, 2023

iamlamad said:
69 weeks ends with the red text. The next event written is Jesus' death. AFTER the 69 weeks but before the 70th. Then next Daniel wrote of the destruction of the temple, AFTER the 69 weeks but BEFORE the 70th week. Finally, some unknown time AFTER the destruction of the temple will come the 70th week.

In other words, Daniel wrote it a gap as big as Texas.

That is dispensationalist doctrine, Daniel never wrote such a gap. 9:27 described Jesus's ministry of three and a half years which started from his baptism at age 30, at the end of that he was crucified, hence the "cut off" part; that caused "the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" because Jesus was the ultimate sacrificial lamb, after him no more animal sacrifice was legally accepted by God. And the "abomination of desolation" is not limited within the 70 weeks, that's a reference to the siege of Jerusalem at 70 AD, Jesus warned about that in the Olivet Discourse. From 70 AD till the end, the temple mount shall be left desolate, and an abomination, which is the mosque, shall be set up, it will stay that way till the end. Jesus also prophecied about that specifically in Luke 21:20-24. The Antichrist, peace treaty, the third temple and other stuffs are just a political thriller.

Jonathan_Gale · Aug 20, 2023

iamlamad said:
We can understand that the firstfruits as the first "fruit" of every crop that turns ripe. it could be barley, wheat, or a pomegranate. It was always taken to the temple and given to the Lord. Since these 144,000 will be the first Jews (outside of those born again who will go up in the rapture) into heaven, I think firstfruits fits them well.

You can, I can't. Any valid interpretation and sound doctrine must have its foundation in the Torah. If it's not in the Torah, the first five books, then it's just man made doctrine.

Jonathan_Gale · Aug 20, 2023

iamlamad said:
No, in Paul's rapture passage of 1 Thes. 4 & 5, Paul explains that the rapture of the church will come BEFORE the start of the Day of the Lord and before the start of God's wrath.

This is confirmed in Revelation because God showed John the raptured church in heaven (the great crowd too large to number) in chapter 7. John does not even begin the 70th week or "tribulation" until the 7th seal. Since six always comes before seven in counting, we can be sure the rapture will be pretrib. If the rapture was post-trib, the church would miss its own marriage ceremony which will take place in heaven BEFORE Christ descends.

If the rapture were post-trib, there would be no sheep for the sheep and goat judgment, for they would all have resurrection bodies.

Didn't I tell you about pre-trib death and post-trib resurrection? We're not on the same page as long as you stick to your alien abduction style rapture doctrine. That's a hype which doesn't exist in the bible.

Jonathan_Gale · Aug 20, 2023

oikonomia said:
I believe two different groups are revealed with the number of perfection associated with them.
Chapter 7 - 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel.
Chapter 14 - 144,000 Firstfruits who follow the Lamb alive into heaven before the GT.

Revelation is a book of climax of both Old Testament promises and New Testament promises.
Many dear Christians tend to give most of the weight in Revelation to fulfillment of New Testament promises to the church.
I would encourage such to be enlarged some. Revelation also concludes some matters related to old covenant Israel.

As God reserved for Himself in Elijah's time 7,000 who had not bowed the knee to Baal,
similarly the vision of a remnant from the 12 tribes indicates God's preservation of national Israel THROUGH the GT.

While some believers move to the conclusion that these 144,000 Jews will be great evangelists, nothing at all
is said about thier activity. We only see that they are selected to be preserved.

The flavor of their preservation has more of an Old Testament tone than the flavor of the 144,000 FIrstfruits in chapter 14.
1.) The directions to seal them comes not from the Lamb but from "another Angel" (v.7:2). While here as well as other places
in Revelation "Another Angel" should mean Christ. BUT He is designated like His Old Testament manifestation as "the Angel of Jehovah."
IMO the flavor is of Christ in His old covenant characteristics keeping promise to the Israelites. (See Gen. 22:11-12; Exo. 3:2-6; Judges 6:11-24; Zech. 1:11-12; 2:8-11; 3:1-7).

2.) In contrast to this the manifestation of Christ in chapter 14 is more related to the new covenant "the Lamb" (14: 1,4)

3.) Where as the 144,000 sealed in chapter 7 are preserved by "the seal of the living God" (7:2) the 144,000 of chapter 14
are related to "His [the Lamb's] name and the name of His Father".

4.) Whereas the 144,000 of chapter 7 are referred to as "the slaves of our God"(7:3) the more intimate life relationship
of the Firstfruits in chapter 14 is to "His [the Lamb's] Father" (14:1)

Both groups are assured ownership by God as the mark of preservation is on their foreheads.

5.) Just taking what we are told in the two respective chapters ALL WE KNOW . . . is the Jews are preserved and Firstfruits are raptured.

That the 144,000 Jews are great end time evangelists is only speculation.
And it is usually based on the faulty assumption that NO gospel preaching Christians will be LEFT on the earth
after a pre-great tribulation rapture of the whole church.

That the 144,000 of the twelve tribes in chapter 7 are latter raptured to stand with Christ on some heavenly Mount Zion in chapter 14
is also speculation. Most likely it is based on God using the same number signifying a.) a remnant b.) perfection of some sort.

6.) All we are TOLD from chapter 7 is that these 144,000 are sealed that they be not harmed by the damaging of the judging four winds
during the GT. Speculate if you wish that they are SEALED in addition that they may be raptured. It just says they are sealed to be protected.

And I saw another Angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and He cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom authority was given to harm the earth and the sea,
Saying, Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the slaves of our God upon their foreheads. (7:2,3)

7.) In fact in chapter 7 we are told NOTHING about their spiritual condition. We are only told that the living God has
SEALED them for protection and preservation.

In contrast the 144,000 Firstfruits of chapter 14 are followers of the Lamb where ever He goes. They being redeemed from the earth (raptured)
are for the Lamb and the Father's satisfaction. They are a testimony to thier being a pleasure to the Father and the Son.

8.) During the great tribulation we are told that TWO classes of people will stand against the persecution of the Antichrist.
1.) Those who keep the commandments of God.
2.) Those who have the testimony of Jesus. (Or those who have "the faith of Jesus." )

And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus. (Rev. 12:17)

Here is the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (Rev. 14:12)

This does not mean that the Jews on earth at that time are successful in keeping all the commandments.
I think it means that they DO resist Antichrist by keeping the commandment that no other god can replace the God of Israel.

Also in Revelation 12 and 14 though in one sense the two groups are distinct, they are also seen as one entity.
1.) "the rest of her seed" of the persecuted bright woman of light. (12:17)
2.) "the saints" (14:12)

During the 3.5 year great tribulation especially monotheistic Jews undergo persecution and monotheistic Christians also.

Some might pushback saying Christians must keep the commandments of God once they have the faith of Jesus.
However, I think the order in that case would reflect this by putting "the faith of Jesus" or "the testimony of Jesus" BEFORE "keep the commandments of God."

I'll let you consider these points before writing more.
Bottom line is that I would teach perfection of preservation is over a remnant of the twelve tribes through the GT.
And a perfection of pleasingness in following Christ causes some living believers to be rapture as Firstfruits EARLY
before the start of the GT.

Well I believe in a lot of instances, the same contents are written from two perspectives, a common feature in the bible which most people don't know. This is based on the principle, "every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses" (Deut. 17:6, Matt. 18:16, 1 Cor. 13:1). Examples include two creation accounts of the earth and Eden, two versions of Joseph's dream, two versions of Pharoah's dream, two versions of Israel's history from David to the Babylonian captivity (two books of Kings and two books of Chronicles), two versions of gentile historic timeline (the metalic statue and the four beasts, in king Nebuchadnezzar's and Daniel's dreams), two genealogies of Jesus, two categories of gospels (synoptic, the first three gospels, and the gospel of John), and at last, two witnesses. The 144,000 in ch. 7 and ch. 14 is yet another example. This is a huge pitfall which often causes confusion for western readers who tend to think in a linear, chronological perspective, but the round peg of the bible doesn't always fit in this square hole view.

In ch.7, the 144,000 were sealed by God. To understand what it means you have to go back to the Torah, in this case the Shema prayer:

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one! You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.“And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates. (Deut. 6:4-9)

A seal is a sign of ownership, protection and allegiance, the seal of God is the commandment of God, head and hand symbolize faith and work. Once a person is sealed with this seal, they're God's people. The mark of the Beast is a counterfeit of this seal, once a person takes that mark, they're Satan's minions, and targets of God's wrath. The 144,000 in ch.07 took this seal, in ch.14 they were presented to God; similarly, in ch.07 the Great Multitude was the harvest, in ch.14 it was the REAPING of this harvest, those are like two sides of the same coin. Yes, one focuses on their protection, the other on spirituality, those are not mutually exclusive, and neither is necessariy to be repeated twice.

oikonomia · Aug 20, 2023

iamlamad said:
The classical theory is that Jesus preached to them in Hades so they all got born again and Jesus emptied Abraham's bosom and took them all to heaven. I believe it.

I am surprised at the number of Christian brothers and sisters who have this belief - that Jesus took multitudes with Him to heaven.
If you were to ask me "Where did those saints go who were raised during Jesus's resurrection and appeared in the city?"
I would say "That is completely unknown to me."

We may imagine and speculate. But the account is minimal and left untold on that detail.

iamlamad said:
None of them died in the position of being "in Christ" so their resurrection cannot be with the church. Anyway, read John 6: Jesus, speaking to Old Testament saints, said He would raise them up "on the last day."

Looking again at John 6:40 it says -
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes into Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up in the last day.

Are not the ones Jesus said He will raise on "the last day" there "everyone who beholds the Son and believes into Him"?

Why do you say the passage is about "Old Testament saints?"

iamlamad said:
Did you notice in Matthew 27, when Jesus died, there was a great earthquake?

Yes. I noticed those details.

iamlamad said:
That was God opening the graves and probably pulling together the "dust" that once made up the elder's bodies (I believe at that time Jesus raised the elders of the OT when He rose) which caused that earthquake. Then, three days and three nights later, Jesus resurrected them. They came out of their graves at Jesus' resurrection. My point is, when God resurrects those long dead, I believe it is going to cause an earthquake. (I believe there is a good called "Earthquake Resurrection."

Maybe so. I have learned that when we are told of prophecy we are not told exhaustively of the details.
We are told like the tip of the iceberg. Unexpected things accompany His fulfillment.

Do I understand you rightly?
You believe Old Testament saints not raised "in Christ" outside of the church wait to "the last day" for resurrection.
And part of your support for this belief is that this "last day" according to John 6:40 talks about the raising of "everyone who beholds the Son and believes into Him."

I am a little confused at what you are saying.

iamlamad said:
I believe the rapture will come a moment before the 6th seal is opened, and the great earthquake at the 6th seal will be caused by God resurrecting the dead in Christ. It is going to be the first worldwide earthquake, for the dead in Christ are found around the world.

If we research "the last day" I believe it will happen at the 7th bowl. Notice there the world's worst ever earthquake. I believe that is when God raises those saints from before the great flood.

I see. I may come back to this - the first worldwide earthquake because of a great resurrection at the sixth seal.

What would you say if someone pointed out that in Acts 2:34 Peter said that David had not ascended to heaven?

For David did not ascend into the heavens, . . .

Why would not the great patriarch of the Old Testament David not be one of the saints raised in Matthew 27 and taken to heaven
with Jesus? Peter's talk there is POST the resurrection and ascension of Jesus.

Jonathan_Gale · Aug 20, 2023

oikonomia said:
I am surprised at the number of Christian brothers and sisters who have this belief - that Jesus took multitudes with Him to heaven.
If you were to ask me "Where did those saints go who were raised during Jesus's resurrection and appeared in the city?"
I would say "That is completely unknown to me."

We may imagine and speculate. But the account is minimal and left untold on that detail.

Looking again at John 6:40 it says -
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes into Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up in the last day.

Are not the ones Jesus said He will raise on "the last day" there "everyone who beholds the Son and believes into Him"?

Why do you say the passage is about "Old Testament saints?"

Yes. I noticed those details.

Maybe so. I have learned that when we are told of prophecy we are not told exhaustively of the details.
We are told like the tip of the iceberg. Unexpected things accompany His fulfillment.

Do I understand you rightly?
You believe Old Testament saints not raised "in Christ" outside of the church wait to "the last day" for resurrection.
And part of your support for this belief is that this "last day" according to John 6:40 talks about the raising of "everyone who beholds the Son and believes into Him."

I am a little confused at what you are saying.

I see. I may come back to this - the first worldwide earthquake because of a great resurrection at the sixth seal.

What would you say if someone pointed out that in Acts 2:34 Peter said that David had not ascended to heaven?

For David did not ascend into the heavens, . . .

Why would not the great patriarch of the Old Testament David not be one of the saints raised in Matthew 27 and taken to heaven
with Jesus? Peter's talk there is POST the resurrection and ascension of Jesus.

What's the matter with this obsession with the OT saints? Why is that relevant?

oikonomia · Aug 21, 2023

iamlamad said:
It is the SAME PEOPLE...all 144,000 of them! First seen being sealed, then seen later already in heaven.

I do not think so.
I may return to this but I have a feeling to adjust some my focus of what I write on this discussion.

For the remainder of my discussing this I am going to try to emphasis more God's work of
imparting His life and nature into man.

Some of these things are like discussing how the chairs on the Titanic will be re-arranged.
I mean sometime we can get too occupied with the objective outward matters, as to how the will play out.

While this is important the bird's eye view of the Triune God's purpose to dispense His life
and nature into man for the building of His temple and preparation for the Son's bride, I do
not want to negect.

You may find my future replies to you from this point to lean more towards this central purpose of God.
I may lean less towards the rightness or wrongness of objective sequences of mostly outward events.

I trust this will not sound to you like evasion. But rather I am going to encrease the priority of God's inward
work to accomplish His purposes. Placing the puzzle pieces as best we can as to "What happens when and in what order?" is important.
But His central purpose to work Himself into man for a union in life and nature is what so much of the prophecies are all for.

oikonomia · Aug 21, 2023

Jonathan_Gale said:
What's the matter with this obsession with the OT saints? Why is that relevant?

I don't think I said anything about "obsession."
I'm not sure what you're asking me.

You may notice from this point a little change in the what I emphasize more in the discussion.
I feel to try to relate these matters more to the overall purpose of God to do everything
for His elect for the dispensing of His life and nature into them for His final goal - New Jerusalem.

Some of these matters about how best to see if we can fit the jigsaw puzzle pieces together can
cause the big picture of the central revelation of the Bible to be easily overlooked.

I hope this will not sound like evasion to you by me.
But I have been convicted by the Lord, I think, to talk more about His eternal purpose.
That is not JUST what sequence of events happens in what order. I am speaking for myself.

oikonomia · Aug 21, 2023

Jonathan_Gale said:
Well I believe in a lot of instances, the same contents are written from two perspectives, a common feature in the bible which most people don't know. This is based on the principle, "every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses" (Deut. 17:6, Matt. 18:16, 1 Cor. 13:1).

You by now saw my heads up about how I would lean more on things related to God's dispensing of His life into man.

Now I understand the principle of two is a testimony.
Rather than having two testimonies that the sealed Israelites are also the Firstfruits, what I think is being
testified by two is God's faitfhulness in different circumstances in view to His overall purpose.

The two mentions of the multiple of the number of perfection in eternity 12 is what there is double testimony to.
The two mentions of 144,000 (multiple of 12) assure:

1.) Through the GT God preserves Israelites for their ultimate dispensing of Christ into them.
2.) Before the GT a remnant of living Christians whose minds are set on the things above, where Christ is, suddenly find themselves
physically there as well.

That there is double testimony to faithfulness of God's choosing a remnant in divine perfection is what I see.
You see that there is double testimony that the same persons are involved.

Jonathan_Gale said:
To understand what it means you have to go back to the Torah, in this case the Shema prayer:

Consulting the Shema would be one way to understand this sealing.

Jonathan_Gale said:
A seal is a sign of ownership, protection and allegiance, the seal of God is the commandment of God, head and hand symbolize faith and work. Once a person is sealed with this seal, they're God's people.

Yet there is also an ownership by God's sovereignty which is simply His divine providence to reserve irrespective of one's spiritual condition.
Down the road in God's economy He will dispense His life and nature into them.
But at the time of their selection they are just chosen by selection having done nothing.

Though the children had not yet been born nor had done anything good or bad (that the purpose of God according to selection might remain, not of works but of Him who calls), (Rom. 9:13)

Jonathan_Gale said:
The mark of the Beast is a counterfeit of this seal, once a person takes that mark, they're Satan's minions, and targets of God's wrath. The 144,000 in ch.07 took this seal,

Your view is that these "took the seal".
But all we are told is that they were sealed.

Saying, Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the slaves of our God upon their foreheads. (Rev. 7:3)

Eventually, they end up as constituents of the New Jerusalem, over the gates of which are written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel.
And on her foundations the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. They arrive at one destiny ultimately.

Jonathan_Gale said:
in ch.14 they were presented to God; similarly, in ch.07 the Great Multitude was the harvest, in ch.14 it was the REAPING of this harvest, those are like two sides of the same coin. Yes, one focuses on their protection, the other on spirituality, those are not mutually exclusive, and neither is necessariy to be repeated twice.

Thanks for your fellowship and insight into the passages.
I have nothing to add at this time. Maybe I will latter.

Jonathan_Gale · Aug 21, 2023

oikonomia said:
I don't think I said anything about "obsession."
I'm not sure what you're asking me.

You may notice from this point a little change in the what I emphasize more in the discussion.
I feel to try to relate these matters more to the overall purpose of God to do everything
for His elect for the dispensing of His life and nature into them for His final goal - New Jerusalem.

Some of these matters about how best to see if we can fit the jigsaw puzzle pieces together can
cause the big picture of the central revelation of the Bible to be easily overlooked.

I hope this will not sound like evasion to you by me.
But I have been convicted by the Lord, I think, to talk more about His eternal purpose.
That is not JUST what sequence of events happens in what order. I am speaking for myself.

I just don’t see the point in this discussion about the OT saints. A simple reading about the “key of Hades”, “key of death”, “key of David” can tell you the answer - Jesus went down to Hades and set the OT saints free, once and for all. The others whom he didn’t set free were locked in there waiting for the white throne judgement. That’s the message in Rev. 3:7.

What does the term "rapture" means to you - other than the dictionary definition of "upcatching"?

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My count is a bit shy of the Mark!

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