What does the term "rapture" means to you - other than the dictionary definition of "upcatching"?

[iamlamad]

When Jesus was taken up to heaven, the disciples there at the time, they watched as Jesus ascended up, and disappeared in a cloud. So it was not a sudden rapture like event. And when Jesus returns, the two angels said he would return in like-manner, i.e. the world will see Him descend down to earth.

I guess one could use this is proof that Jesus will come two more times: first hidden in a cloud, but over seven years later seen touching down.

 

[iamlamad]

As the beast-king function, not as the Antichrist function.

The mayor Chicago is mayor of Chicago - not mayor of the United States. The Antichrist will be King of Israel. Later, after that phase, he will be the beast-king dictator of the world.

I think you are saying that he is the "man of sin" before he becomes the Beast of Revelation 13.

 

[iamlamad]

I have carefully considered, what you call “rapture” means mass resurrection, period. When Jesus died on the cross, many saints were resurrected outside of Jerusalem, that’s a preview of this mass resurrection.

But in order to be resurrected, we have to die first, I believe Paul actually addressed that, a seed must die first to sprout new life. That’s the unpopular part which you’ll never hear from anybody who preaches pre-trib rapture, they always skip that part and sell you a hype of sudden disappearance - like alien abduction, so forgive me for not believing that.

Let's consider Paul's explanation of this event:
The dead in Christ rise first—so this entire event will begin with a resurrection of probably billions of people.
Then, AFTER this resurrection of the dead in Christ, THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE are caught up WITH the dead in Christ now resurrected and in the air.

So TOGETHER we all fly up to meet Christ in the air, but hidden in a cloud. Note the emphasis on "alive." there will be a group of saints ALIVE when Christ comes, and they (we?) will not have to die. Our bodies will just be changed. We too will get resurrection bodies.

 

[iamlamad]

You are confusing 2 different uses of the word "parousia." It can mean "presence" or it can mean "coming." It doesn't mean both at the same time. The "coming" form of "parousia" is used as a very technical application of "presence," to be present when formerly you had not been present.

I don't think so. My point is, someone's "presence" cannot be somewhere until THEY are there. Only God can send His "presence" without Him coming.

 

[Douggg]

No they aren't. Being a "prince" was a very common thing across the earth. Being a "man of sin" is common to the entire race, except that being particularly bad was less common. Nevertheless, it is common across the earth of dictators. A "beast-king" simply discribes a ruthless, inhuman king, which again is as common as any "man of sin." These are general functions assigned to a specific man who has a specific role to play in history.

Yes, they are "one of's" because....

there is only one little horn person - who will commit the transgression of desolation - who will be broken without human hand when he attempts to stand up against the Prince of princes Jesus.

there is only one prince who shall come - who shall confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years, then in the middle part of stop the daily sacrifice and oblation, and for overspreading of abominations make the temple desolate.

there is only one Antichrist (falsely) anointed King of Israel - who will the Jews will imbrace as their messiah - instead of Jesus the true Christ.

there is only one revealed man of sin - who will go into the temple, sit, claim to have achieved God-hood, who Jesus will destroy at His coming.

there is only one beast-king - who will rule the entire world for 42 months - who will be cast alive into the lake of fire by Jesus as His return to this earth.

There is only one person who will fulfill any of those five specific functional roles. Compared to your imperfect analogy of husband, father, citizen - which billions have fulfilled those three general functional roles.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, I agree that the Beast is not just a Man, but also a Kingdom, an Empire. It has 10 States and 7 Leaders. 3 Leaders are removed. (This is my speculation.)

The kingdom of the beast may have more than ten nations. There will be, however, only ten leaders that will be of significance to rule with the beast-king.

I don't divide their functions into layered periods of time, as if one is a King and another is a Man of Sin and another is a Coming Ruler. On the contrary, I find the narrative to be focused on a single period of time, the 3.5 year reign of Antichrist.

The problem with your calling the person the Antichrist in blanket form - is that he will not be the Antichrist, King of Israel, any longer after committing the transgression of desolation act of 2Thesslaonians2;4.

Again, it is like you calling John F. Kennedy - Senator, after he had become President of the United States. John F Kennedy after he had become President of the United States - was former Senator of Massachusetts.

After the person becomes the beast-king - he is then formerly the Antichrist, King of Israel thought to be messiah by the Jews.

My advice is break your bad habit, and start referring to the person in his appropriate functional role. Don't be like the unlearned crowd.

i.e don't call the beast king of Revelation 13 - the Antichrist. Instead, in one of the sentences of your communications - say the beast king, the former Antichrist. You will not only be correct by saying that, but it will help to educate others.

 

[Douggg]

So TOGETHER we all fly up to meet Christ in the air, but hidden in a cloud. Note the emphasis on "alive." there will be a group of saints ALIVE when Christ comes, and they (we?) will not have to die. Our bodies will just be changed. We too will get resurrection bodies.

I don't disagree with your post. Personally, I like to use the term "translated" when applying to the living changed, because of the translation of Jesus on the Mt of Transfiguration into a glowing glorious appearance. translated - one of the definition is the conversion of one form to another.

 

[Douggg]

I think you are saying that he is the "man of sin" before he becomes the Beast of Revelation 13.

Exactly.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The Greek word for rapture is harpazō: a snatching up.

Yes, that much you're correct on. It's been a while since I've studied eschatology and/or the greek that Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

Nevertheless, citing it in the Koine Greek doesn't mean any of us understands the term, let alone that it signifies a 'rapture' in any way which a modern Dispensationalist would mean it. And since I'm no Dispensationalist, I'm not overly concerned with guessing as to its exact meaning since I don't think any of us really knows.

I am amazed at your lack of attention to what is behind this word. This is the blessed hope of the church! One day Jesus will return to the clouds, and the dead in Christ will rise first, then those who are alive and in Christ will be caught up WITH THEM into the clouds to meet Jesus in the air. Have you never heard or sang the awesome hymn, "The Meeting In the Air?"

You're "amazed"? Well, I'm glad someone is ...

There should be no "speculation" about this for it is written very clearly. Some people debate over when it will happen. They shouldn't. Paul tells us it will happen before the start of the Day of the Lord and so before God's wrath. On Revelation's timeline God's wrath begins at the 6th seal, but the "tribulation" or 70th week will begin at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment. Since 6 always comes before 7 in counting, and since the 6th esal will certainly be opened before the 7th seal, we can rest assured the rapture will be pre-trib.

It's speculation.

 

[RandyPNW]

I don't think so. My point is, someone's "presence" cannot be somewhere until THEY are there. Only God can send His "presence" without Him coming.

Yes, of course. When you're "present," you're "present" and not absent. This is not how "parousia" is used in the passages where it means "coming." It has to do with an arrival, more than just you being present. Anyway, I don't see a lot of light coming out of this!

 

[RandyPNW]

Yes, they are "one of's" because....

there is only one little horn person - who will commit the transgression of desolation - who will be broken without human hand when he attempts to stand up against the Prince of princes Jesus.

there is only one prince who shall come - who shall confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years, then in the middle part of stop the daily sacrifice and oblation, and for overspreading of abominations make the temple desolate.

there is only one Antichrist anointed King of Israel - who will the Jews will imbrace as their messiah - instead of Jesus the true Christ.

there is only one revealed man of sin - who will go into the temple, sit, claim to have achieved God-hood, who Jesus will destroy at His coming.

there is only one beast-king - who will rule the entire world for 42 months - who will be cast alive into the lake of fire by Jesus as His return to this earth.

There is only one person who will fulfill any of those five specific functional roles. Compared to your imperfect analogy of husband, father, citizen - which billions have fulfilled those three general functional roles.

I don't agree. Those 3 functions I fulfill are unique to the way I fulfill them. The functions themselves are not unique. In the same way, the 5 functions you describe are only made unique by virtue of their relationship to the one whose function it is. Being a "little horn" was an identification with either Antichrist or Antiochus, or for that matter, anybody who we would want to identify as such. Being a coming prince is certainly not unique, nor is being a king. Being a particularly lawless king also is not unique, except if the function is tied to an individual.

So what ties all of these so-called functions together? What makes then a single person? Well 1st, they aren't, in my view, all the same person. The coming prince is the Roman general. 2nd, what ties them together is reference back to the Little Horn of Dan 7. They all go back to what is described as an end-time adversary of Christianity. All NT references to such a person goes back to the Little Horn of Dan 7. Their differing functions would not contradict that passage if indeed they referred to the same person. The "coming ruler" does not relate at all to Dan 7 and thus is not Antichrist, in my opinion.

 

[RandyPNW]

The kingdom of the beast may have more than ten nations. There will be, however, only ten leaders that will be of significance to rule with the beast-king.

I see the Beast as 10 horns and 7 heads, meaning 10 states of Europe and 7 surviving rulers over those 10 states--3 of the rulers are over thrown, leaving 10 states and only 7 rulers.

The problem with your calling the person the Antichrist in blanket form - is that he will not be the Antichrist, King of Israel, any longer after committing the transgression of desolation act of 2Thesslaonians2;4.

Again, it is like you calling John F. Kennedy - Senator, after he had become President of the United States. John F Kennedy after he had become President of the United States - was former Senator of Massachusetts.

Sure, you wouldn't say Senator Kennedy after he has become President Kennedy. But he is still John Kennedy! The real question for me is, are you certain that these functions change the character expressed by the name? Does "desolating" something really stop a person from being formerly the "Man of Sin," or the "Antichrist?" It seems a little irrational to me.

 

[Douggg]

I don't agree. Those 3 functions I fulfill are unique to the way I fulfill them. The functions themselves are not unique. In the same way, the 5 functions you describe are only made unique by virtue of their relationship to the one whose function it is.

Randy, you could write book on how to be a father. But the text is from you; you wrote the book.

Those five functional roles are bibilical text, the Word of God.

 

[Douggg]

Sure, you wouldn't say Senator Kennedy after he has become President Kennedy. But he is still John Kennedy! The real question for me is, are you certain that these functions change the character expressed by the name? Does "desolating" something really stop a person from being formerly the "Man of Sin," or the "Antichrist?" It seems a little irrational to me.

We have the name for John F. Kennedy. We don't have the name - yet - of the person who will fulfill those 5 different functional roles.

All the way through the 5 different functional roles - it will be same person who's name is (????????????? we don't know yet).

 

[Douggg]

I see the Beast as 10 horns and 7 heads, meaning 10 states of Europe and 7 surviving rulers over those 10 states--3 of the rulers are over thrown, leaving 10 states and only 7 rulers.

The seven heads are sequential kings. The ten kings are a separate group of kings - that rule concurrent with one another, i.e at the same time.

If you are talking about the ten kings, and the little horn removes three of those ten kings in Daniel 7 - they would have to be replaced imo for the number to come back to ten.

What will probably happen is three of those ten leaders will refuse to go along with the little horn's agenda - at what point of the end times events, I don't know.

I also don't know if "plucked up by the roots " (Daniel 7:8) means removed from power, or that he has them executed for high treason. Maybe they plot to kill the little horn , like nazi generals who tried to assassinate Hitler.

When the Antichrist reveals himself to be the man of sin (ending his time in the Antichrist functional role) - in Ezekiel 28:1-10, God has strangers come against him and assassinate him. That's how the mortally wounded head in Revelation 13, gets mortally wounded.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

The 'rapture' doesn't mean much to me. Nor do I think anyone really has a firm handle on all of the interrogatives that could be apply to its term of origination and excessive abstraction from the Koine Greek, 'parousia.'

All in all, it's probably best to designate speculation about the nature of the rapture as being just that: speculation gussied up as "theology proper." Then, we can all stop debating about it.

It’s a hype, not real hope.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I disagree. Yes, the 144,000 are seen in chapter 14 in heaven. They are there as the firstfruits of the Jews and Hebrews. Emphasis is on "first." They will arrive in heaven first.

What then about the two harvests done with sickles? If we keep this in context, the days of great tribulation (GT) that Jesus spoke of is about to begin. God has sent an angel to warn all people in their own language the danger or taking the mark. After the warning, the mark will begin to be enforced. All people will be given the choice: take the mark or lose their heads. This is what the first sickle harvest will be: those who die from this point on by refusing the mark or refusing to bow.

Then the next harvest is a harvest of wrath. This is looking forward in time to the Battle of Armageddon and the sheep and goat judgment where the wicked will die.

The term “firstfruit” is one term, which refers to the original festival ordained by God. It doesn’t mean much to us, not even to most Jews, but that’s one of God’s appointed time on God’s schedule. You gotta let the Bible interpret itself, it’s like any book series where there’s a universal setting, and the latter books is full of references from earlier books, and none of those references make any sense unless you’re read the earlier books.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Let's consider Paul's explanation of this event:
The dead in Christ rise first—so this entire event will begin with a resurrection of probably billions of people.
Then, AFTER this resurrection of the dead in Christ, THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE are caught up WITH the dead in Christ now resurrected and in the air.

So TOGETHER we all fly up to meet Christ in the air, but hidden in a cloud. Note the emphasis on "alive." there will be a group of saints ALIVE when Christ comes, and they (we?) will not have to die. Our bodies will just be changed. We too will get resurrection bodies.

That’s the end, post-trib, the return of Jesus on a white horse as the king of kings and lord of lords.

 

[RandyPNW]

Randy, you could write book on how to be a father. But the text is from you; you wrote the book.

Those five functional roles are bibilical text, the Word of God.

You're not making any argument here. As I said, the functions I have, and the functions Antichrist has, are general functions. It is the person who gives those functions uniqueness--not the fact it is biblical. There are all kinds of "men of sin" in the Bible. That still doesn't make it technically applicable to the Antichrist, or whatever you choose to call him.

To divide up a single person into several names as if they are different persons when having different functions is flat-out bizarre. You're making the Antichrist into a multiple personality mental case.

 

[RandyPNW]

We have the name for John F. Kennedy. We don't have the name - yet - of the person who will fulfill those 5 different functional roles.

All the way through the 5 different functional roles - it will be same person who's name is (????????????? we don't know yet).

Just call him the Antichrist. Works for me.