• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

What does the term "rapture" means to you - other than the dictionary definition of "upcatching"?

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,957
3,558
Non-dispensationalist
✟412,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Yes, we don't have the same qualifications for being Antichrist. I believe he is a leader in Europe--not in Israel. The Roman leaders were types of Antichrist because John wrote in 1 John that there were already many Antichrists, indicating that Antichrist has predecessors. These were not kings of Israel, since when John wrote this there weren't any other than Agrippa, a Herodian king.
Randy, there is a simple explanation. The person will be a leader of Europe. But not as the Antichrist, but as the little horn.

There are 5 biblical stages of power that the person goes through on his way to his destruction. Two of those is being the leader of Europe.... i.e. as the little horn.... and finally as the beast-king.

(1) little horn leader of the EU ten other leaders, (2) then as the prince who shall come, (3) then anointed as the King of Israel - Antichrist, (4) then revealed as the man of sin- ending his time as the King of Israel, (5) then is killed and brought back to life to become the beast-king, dictator of the EU.

------------------------------------------------------------------

The many antichrists that John was talking about was that Christians in his day were turning away from Jesus, to deny Him and that He is the Son of God. John was expressing his hurt and disappointment, for John's love and belief in Jesus was great. John is my favorite of the apostles. They are all great and wonderful saints, special men of God, that we should be so grateful to.

To understand the concept of the coming Antichrist, it is critical to understand that Jesus was the person God sent to Israel to be the King of Israel. Even his enemies understood this. At the time of Jesus being crucified, the religious leaders of Israel mocked him, saying....


Matthew 24:41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

Mark 15:31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

-------------------------------------------------------------

The Anti-Christ will be embraced by the Jews thinking that he is their long-awaited King of Israel messiah.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

oikonomia

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
2,798
511
75
Orange County, CA
✟90,109.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There’s no guarantee that we the gentile Christians are among those “some” who are alive in 1 Thess. 4:17 and not among the dead in 1 Thess. 4:16.
Of course we have no garuantee that we are among those living at that time.
That does not mean that no one else could be among the living and remaining Christians at that time.

When Paul writes "Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will be always with the Lord" (v. 17) the "we" there is generic, general.

It’s not about what the Scripture says,
And it is about how we might interpret what the Scripture says.
but what scenario it may apply to you and me. No amount of Ancient Greek study can give you a clear answer to that. Actually, it is more likely that only the Jews will be preserved, they will finally proclaim the name of the Lord (Matt. 23:39) and they will mourn at his coming (Matt. 24:30), by then we’re dead and crying out for justice (Rev. 6:10).
Your way of interpreting what Scripture says there PRESUPPOSES that all saints are deceased and crying out in Rev. 6:10.
There is no reason to assume it could not be a PORTION of the total number of saints "sleeping" in death and crying out there.

And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had. ( Rev. 6:9)

It just said he saw the souls not that he saw ALL the souls.

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Master, holy and true, will You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? (v.10)

In church history some have been called upon to be so marytred. Not ALL have.

And to each of them was given a white robe; and it was said to them that they should rest yet a little while, until also the number of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed, even as they were, is completed. (v.11)

It just says to "each one of them" not to all who were there.

God can show different levels of honor to His servants. (Luke 19:15-19; Matt. 25:19-23; Matt. 5:19; 1 Cor. 3:14,15)

Further thoughts on this?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
3,513
795
Pacific NW, USA
✟164,532.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Randy, there is a simple explanation. The person will be a leader of Europe. But not as the Antichrist, but as the little horn.
Yes, there has been a debate in history between whether the Antichrist will be the 1st or the 2nd Beast of Rev 13. I prefer the 1st Beast only because it appears the 2nd Beast follows him, and it seems reasonable that Antichrist would be the one being followed.
There are 5 biblical stages of power that the person goes through on his way to his destruction. Two of those is being the leader of Europe.... i.e. as the little horn.... and finally as the beast-king.
I don't see this spelled out in the Bible, but I understand that it is how you look at it biblically.
(1) little horn leader of the EU ten other leaders, (2) then as the prince who shall come, (3) then anointed as the King of Israel - Antichrist, (4) then revealed as the man of sin- ending his time as the King of Israel, (5) then is killed and brought back to life to become the beast-king, dictator of the EU.
I can't unite all 5 entities for a number of reasons.
1) I accept the Little Horn of Dan 7 as the Antichrist.
2) The "prince who is to come" in Dan 9 I see as the Roman ruler, because he "destroys the city and the sanctuary." This happened in 70 AD.
3) I don't see the Antichrist as "King of Israel" because, as I said, he is a European king. In Dan 7, Antichrist, the "Little Horn," arises out of the 4th Beast, the Roman Empire.
4) Paul's mention of the "Man of Sin" in 2 Thes 2 does not speak of him as "King of Israel," nor a ending his time as that.
5) The resurrection of the Beast may, in my view, represent a restoration of the old pagan Roman Empire--not a physical resurrection of the man. But I really don't know.
------------------------------------------------------------------

The many antichrists that John was talking about was that Christians in his day were turning away from Jesus, to deny Him and that He is the Son of God. John was expressing his hurt and disappointment, for John's love and belief in Jesus was great. John is my favorite of the apostles. They are all great and wonderful saints, special men of God, that we should be so grateful to.
John's sense of "Antichrists" seem not to do with backsliders as much as adversaries. I also greatly love the Apostle John among all of the biblical personages. It is because of his focus on love, on Jesus' emphasis on *doing* the word of God, on who Christ is as Deity, and on Prophecy.
To understand the concept of the coming Antichrist, it is critical to understand that Jesus was the person God sent to Israel to be the King of Israel. Even his enemies understood this. At the time of Jesus being crucified, they religious leaders of Israel mocked him, saying....


Matthew 24:41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

Mark 15:31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

-------------------------------------------------------------

The Anti-Christ will be embraced by the Jews thinking that he is their long-awaited King of Israel messiah.
It's possible that Antichrist will present himself as Jewish Messiah, but I doubt it. Antiochus 4, who I think prefigures Antichrist, was purely a pagan adversary of Israel, and tried to impose his deification on Israel. He was no Messiah figure at all! Thanks for your thoughts. I'm certainly not dogmatic on these things.
 
Upvote 0

oikonomia

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
2,798
511
75
Orange County, CA
✟90,109.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Actually, it is more likely that only the Jews will be preserved, they will finally proclaim the name of the Lord (Matt. 23:39) and they will mourn at his coming (Matt. 24:30), by then we’re dead and crying out for justice (Rev. 6:10).
I am attempting to have you consider selective rapture.

Notice this passage written to Christians in Thessalonika. (1 Thess. 5:4-10)

But you, brothers, are not in darkness that the day should overtake you like a thief; (1 Thes. 5:4)

The tone: "Because this is your status, accordingly, you should live a certain way."

For you are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. (v.5)
The tone:
"Because this is your status, accordingly you should LIVE a certain way."

So then let us not sleep, as the rest do, but let us watch and be sober. (v6).
The tone:
"Since this is our status let us live consistent with it."

For those who sleep, sleep during the night, and those who get drunk are drunk during the night; (v.7)
The tone: "Let us live consistently with our status not contrary to it."

But since we are of the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love and a helmet, the hope of salvation. (v.8)
The tone: "Let us responsibly do what we should do to be consistent with our status."

For God did not appoint us to wrath but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, (v.10)
The tone:
"We should not up being where what was not APPOINTED to us."

Look carefull at all passages about His coming and rapture.
They have the tone of exhortation, admonition, warning, and call to responsibility.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,957
3,558
Non-dispensationalist
✟412,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
It's possible that Antichrist will present himself as Jewish Messiah, but I doubt it. Antiochus 4, who I think prefigures Antichrist, was purely a pagan adversary of Israel, and tried to impose his deification on Israel. He was no Messiah figure at all! Thanks for your thoughts. I'm certainly not dogmatic on these things.
Randy, Antiochus's action prefigured what the false prophet will do regarding the end times abomination of desolation. Antiouchus had a statue image (of Zeus) placed in the temple. The end time abomination desolation will be a statue image made of the beast-king, at the direction of the false prophet.

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

The statue image will be on the temple mount platform - not in the temple sanctuary building. It will be on the temple mount platform because it will have to visible in order for them in Judea to "see" it, and flee to the mountains right away.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem regarding the concept of the Antichrist is that I would say 99% of the world has been conditioned with the Antichrist = an evil global end times dictator. That is a erroneous non-biblical mindset that has been embedded in people's minds - by the same thing being said over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over........

And so-called bible prophecy teachers are just as guilty of perpetuating the Antichrist in blanket form speak about him - by saying that the little horn, the beast, the man of sin - are different NAMES for the Antichrist. No!!!!!! It is not different names, you dummies, it is different FUNCTIONS. Just like being mayor of a city is different than being president of the United States. It may be the same person, at different times of his career, but the FUNCTION of being mayor is completely different than being president.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While I am at it. Pre-trib rapture teachers have been perpetuating the same wrong description of their rapture view - by calling, over, and over, and over, and over,
and over, and over, and over, and over...... the 7year 70th week of Daniel 9, as "the tribulation".

They are totally wrong. The 7 years, the first part of it, of three years, there abouts, is NOT tribulation, but a false messianic age of the world saying "peace and safety".

The rapture may indeed happen pre-70th week, but please pre-trib correct the name of your view as being pre-70th week - not pre-tribulation.

And it is "great tribulation" that takes part in the latter portion of the 70th week - not "tribulation", but "great tribulation". Jesus said great tribulation, never before and never again.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Jonathan_Gale

Well-Known Member
Aug 15, 2023
625
71
36
Taiwan
✟22,699.00
Country
Taiwan
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Of course we have no garuantee that we are among those living at that time.
That does not mean that no one else could be among the living and remaining Christians at that time.

When Paul writes "Then we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will be always with the Lord" (v. 17) the "we" there is generic, general.


And it is about how we might interpret what the Scripture says.

Your way of interpreting what Scripture says there PRESUPPOSES that all saints are deceased and crying out in Rev. 6:10.
There is no reason to assume it could not be a PORTION of the total number of saints "sleeping" in death and crying out there.

And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had. ( Rev. 6:9)

It just said he saw the souls not that he saw ALL the souls.

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Master, holy and true, will You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? (v.10)

In church history some have been called upon to be so marytred. Not ALL have.

And to each of them was given a white robe; and it was said to them that they should rest yet a little while, until also the number of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed, even as they were, is completed. (v.11)

It just says to "each one of them" not to all who were there.

God can show different levels of honor to His servants. (Luke 19:15-19; Matt. 25:19-23; Matt. 5:19; 1 Cor. 3:14,15)

Further thoughts on this?
That’s not the whole picture as well. Later apostle John saw the great multitude all dressed in that white robe praising God, so you have to determine whether that represents the entirety of all Christians. This white robe of righteousness is the priestly garment washed white as snow with the blood of Christ, it’s prophesized in Is. 1:18, also mentioned in the parable of the king’s feast, you gotta be dressed in the right way to attend the wedding.
 
Upvote 0

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
3,513
795
Pacific NW, USA
✟164,532.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Randy, Antiochus's action prefigured what the false prophet will do regarding the end times abomination of desolation. Antiouchus had a statue image (of Zeus) placed in the temple. The end time abomination desolation will be a statue image made of the beast-king, at the direction of the false prophet.

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

The statue image will be on the temple mount platform - not in the temple sanctuary building. It will be on the temple mount platform because it will have to visible in order for them in Judea to "see" it, and flee to the mountains right away.
Well that introduces a real good question for me. I've never had a handle on the "image of the Beast" thing. It's definitely something for me to contemplate, and to revisit, should I come to learn more. I'll think about what you're thinking, thanks.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem regarding the concept of the Antichrist is that I would say 99% of the world has been conditioned with the Antichrist = an evil global end times dictator. That is a erroneous non-biblical mindset that has been embedded in people's minds - by the same thing being said over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over........
I think I know what you mean. Who is going to follow an "evil world dictator?" However, when a Hitler does arise, people have a way of ignoring their conscience. Hitler pulled upon the rage of the German People, who had lost some of their industrial land in WW1. They were in poverty, when Hitler began to urge them to fight back under his direction. What a huge error!!

But yes, the Antichrist is, I believe, an evil global end times dictator. Sorry!
And so-called bible prophecy teachers are just as guilty of perpetuating the Antichrist in blanket form speak about him - by saying that the little horn, the beast, the man of sin - are different NAMES for the Antichrist. No!!!!!! It is not different names, you dummies, it is different FUNCTIONS. Just like being mayor of a city is different than being president of the United States. It may be the same person, at different times of his career, but the FUNCTION of being mayor is completely different than being president.
Actually, I think most people would realize that, brother! ;)
 
Upvote 0

Jonathan_Gale

Well-Known Member
Aug 15, 2023
625
71
36
Taiwan
✟22,699.00
Country
Taiwan
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I am attempting to have you consider selective rapture.
I have carefully considered, what you call “rapture” means mass resurrection, period. When Jesus died on the cross, many saints were resurrected outside of Jerusalem, that’s a preview of this mass resurrection.

But in order to be resurrected, we have to die first, I believe Paul actually addressed that, a seed must die first to sprout new life. That’s the unpopular part which you’ll never hear from anybody who preaches pre-trib rapture, they always skip that part and sell you a hype of sudden disappearance - like alien abduction, so forgive me for not believing that.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,957
3,558
Non-dispensationalist
✟412,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
But yes, the Antichrist is, I believe, an evil global end times dictator. Sorry!
As the beast-king function, not as the Antichrist function.

The mayor Chicago is mayor of Chicago - not mayor of the United States. The Antichrist will be King of Israel. Later, after that phase, he will be the beast-king dictator of the world.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,957
3,558
Non-dispensationalist
✟412,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
But in order to be resurrected, we have to die first, I believe Paul actually addressed that, a seed must die first to sprout new life. That’s the unpopular part which you’ll never hear from anybody who preaches pre-trib rapture, they always skip that part and sell you a hype of sudden disappearance - like alien abduction, so forgive me for not believing that.
Then, like me, call the 1Thessalonians4:15-18 event as the "rapture/resurrection".

The sudden disappearance was prefigured by what happened to Phillip.

Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

oikonomia

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
2,798
511
75
Orange County, CA
✟90,109.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That’s not the whole picture as well. Later apostle John saw the great multitude all dressed in that white robe praising God, so you have to determine whether that represents the entirety of all Christians. This white robe of righteousness is the priestly garment washed white as snow with the blood of Christ, it’s prophesized in Is. 1:18, also mentioned in the parable of the king’s feast, you gotta be dressed in the right way to attend the wedding.
Excellent fellowship.
I will latter write some response. I so love the word of God, please bear with me if I quote long passages in their entirety.
To read the Scripture always is a blessing no matter what our varied interpretations.

Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy and keep the things written in it, for the time is near. (Rev. 1:3)

Be back latter tonight on the fifth seal and the inserted visions of preservations seen between
the sixth and seventh seals in chapter 7.
 
Upvote 0

Jonathan_Gale

Well-Known Member
Aug 15, 2023
625
71
36
Taiwan
✟22,699.00
Country
Taiwan
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
And like Enoch and Elijah, just because Phillip was “taken” doesn’t mean we will, that was not a science experiment that can be replicated. And also, Phillip was not taken into heaven.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,957
3,558
Non-dispensationalist
✟412,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
And like Enoch and Elijah, just because Phillip was “taken” doesn’t mean we will, that was not a science experiment that can be replicated. And also, Phillip was not taken into heaven.
Elijah was taken in a whirlwind. And Enoch, it just says that God took him.

The point with Philip, he was suddenly not seen by the enuch any more. The enuch rejoiced because (1) he received the Holy Spirit at the time of his been immersed in the water (2) he was verified of the power of the Holy Spirit who suddenly took Philip away.
 
Upvote 0

Jonathan_Gale

Well-Known Member
Aug 15, 2023
625
71
36
Taiwan
✟22,699.00
Country
Taiwan
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Elijah was taken in a whirlwind. And Enoch, it just says that God took him.

The point with Philip, he was suddenly not seen by the enuch any more. The enuch rejoiced because (1) he received the Holy Spirit at the time of his been immersed in the water (2) he was verified of the power of the Holy Spirit who suddenly took Philip away.
Neither Elijah nor Enoch died for my sins, neither was set up as a model, only Jesus was. Jesus was taken up when he ascended into heaven (Acts 1:8-9), and before that, he lived, died and rose again (Rev. 1:18).
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,957
3,558
Non-dispensationalist
✟412,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Neither Elijah nor Enoch died for my sins, neither was set up as a model, only Jesus was. Jesus was taken up when he ascended into heaven (Acts 1:8-9), and before that, he lived, died and rose again (Rev. 1:18).
When Jesus was taken up to heaven, the disciples there at the time, they watched as Jesus ascended up, and disappeared in a cloud. So it was not a sudden rapture like event. And when Jesus returns, the two angels said he would return in like-manner, i.e. the world will see Him descend down to earth.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
 
Upvote 0

Jonathan_Gale

Well-Known Member
Aug 15, 2023
625
71
36
Taiwan
✟22,699.00
Country
Taiwan
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
When Jesus was taken up to heaven, the disciples there at the time, they watched as Jesus ascended up, and disappeared in a cloud. So it was not a sudden rapture like event. And when Jesus returns, the two angels said he would return in like-manner, i.e. the world will see Him descend down to earth.
Yeah, see Rev. 19:11-21 and Is. 63:1-6.
 
Upvote 0

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
3,513
795
Pacific NW, USA
✟164,532.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
As the beast-king function, not as the Antichrist function.

The mayor Chicago is mayor of Chicago - not mayor of the United States. The Antichrist will be King of Israel. Later, after that phase, he will be the beast-king dictator of the world.
Okay, that is your position. I think the Antichrist = the Beast, and not separated into "functions," whatever that means. You feel that each function marks the character as different. I hope I have that right?
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,957
3,558
Non-dispensationalist
✟412,729.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Okay, that is your position. I think the Antichrist = the Beast, and not separated into "functions," whatever that means. You feel that each function marks the character as different. I hope I have that right?
The little horn, the prince who shall come, the Antichrist, the revealed man of sin, the beast - are all the same person.

Just like John F Kennedy was lieutenant of PT-109, then was U.S. house of Representative for Massacheuetts, then was US Senator for Massecheuetts, then was the President of the United States. Same person - but all different functions. You might want to call them different roles, if that is a less confusing term to you.

Wheh he was Senator - no one called him, Mr. President. When he was President - no one called him, Senator.

But in essence, that is the type of error you are making.

When the person has become the beast king - he is no longer the Antichrist. So don't be referring to the beast king as the Antichrist. You could say something like the beast king (formerly the Antichrist) to show it is the same person.

Function (role) of the beast-king is being dictator of the EU in its final form. Who also is in essence the future dictator of the world.

Function (role) of the Antichrist is being the King of Israel. Anointed the King of Israel is some-what parallel to someone being sworn in as the President of the United States.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
3,513
795
Pacific NW, USA
✟164,532.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The little horn, the prince who shall come, the Antichrist, the revealed man of sin, the beast - are all the same person.
Yes, that's what I said. I had you right then. Doesn't make sense to me, but obviously it does to you. I wouldn't talk about me as a husband, father, and citizen without clarifying that I'm talking about me! So if I mention each of these functions, I cannot conclude that each function belongs to a single person unless somehow they are explicitly linked to me!

I don't have any problem understanding that the Beast, the Antichrist, the Man of Sin, and the Little Horn are the same person. They all link back to the Little Horn in Dan 7. But the "Ruler who will come" is in a different context. Nor am I clear that the Antichrist is the 2nd Beast. Again, you're certainly entitled to give your opinion...
 
Upvote 0

oikonomia

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
2,798
511
75
Orange County, CA
✟90,109.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That’s not the whole picture as well.
Yes. First Thess. 4:16,17 does not give us "the whole picture."
Later apostle John saw the great multitude all dressed in that white robe praising God, so you have to determine whether that represents the entirety of all Christians.
In this post I will not touch the nature of robes too much yet.

Chapter 7 consists of two visions inserted inbetween the opening of the sixth and seventh seals.
Its purpose is to assure us of two mighty divine preservations before the visions of world judgment are seen.

Verses 1 through 8 show the preservation of 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel through the 3.5 year time.
That is through the winds of God's judgments are unleashed during that period.
"
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth nor on the sea nor on any tree.

And I saw another Angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and He cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom authority was given to harm the earth and the sea,

Saying, Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the slaves of our God upon their foreheads. (Rev. 7:1-3)

Verses 9 through 17 is the second inserted vision about preservation. And here is where we come to the determination about
who it talks about.


"After these things I saw, and behold a great multitude . . . ".
We are told who they are by the questioning elder in verses 13-17.

And one of the elders answered, saying to me, These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where did they come from?(v.13)
And I said to him, My lord, you know. And he said to me, These are those who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (v.14)


Whereas for a long time I thought "the great tribulation" in verse14 should be the 3.5 years, I had a change of understanding.
Here "the great tribulation" I would teach is the entire history of the nations on earth through all ages from the fall of Adam.

It is through much tribulation ALL the Gentiles must enter into the kingdom of God.
Establishing the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith and saying that through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God. (Acts 14:22)

The whole of human history through which all the nations pass is here called "the great tribulation."
The number is enumerable -
After these things I saw, . . . a great multitude which no one could number, out of every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, . . . (v.9a) is of the totality of earth's history since Adam.

Compare:
Revelation 5:9 - And they sing a new song, saying: You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, for You were slain and have purchased for God by Your blood men out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
Romans 11:25 - For I do not want you, brothers, to be ignorant of this mystery (lest you be wise in yourselves), that hardness has come upon Israel in part, until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in;
Acts 15:14,19- Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles to take out from them a people for His name. (v.14)
Therefore I judge that we do not harass those from the Gentiles who are turning to God,


Whereas the preservation of the sealed Israelites pertains to the time of the 3.5 years -
Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the slaves of our God upon their foreheads (v.3)
the number "which no one could number out of every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes and palm branches in their hands." (v.9)
is of the totality of earth's history since Adam.

They are seen as raptured
"standing before the Lamb" proving that through the total tribulation of human history
an gigantic number which no one could number enjoy an eternal feast of tabernacles. Palms branches in their hands

signify victory over tribulation they have undergone for the Lord's sake.

The second inserted vision also strongly implies that the rapture of the believers should begin to transpire before or at the sixth seal.

Chapter 7 assures us prior to the seven trumpet blasts:
1.) God will preserve a remnant of Israelites from the twelve tribes in the 3.5 years.
2.) Generally God will preserve through all of human history's great tribulation a crowd from all nations to enjoy
an eternal feast of tabernacles.

This white robe of righteousness is the priestly garment washed white as snow with the blood of Christ, it’s prophesized in Is. 1:18, also mentioned in the parable of the king’s feast, you gotta be dressed in the right way to attend the wedding.
There is no question that the white robes washed in the blood of the Lamb would mean Justification of their living through Christ's redemption.

But here is the problem with thinking robes cannot mean different things.
The marriage supper of the Lamb takes place in Heaven according to Revelation 19.

After these things I heard as it were a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, Hallelujah! The salvation and the glory and the power are of our God. (Rev. 19:1)
Let us rejoice and exult, and let us give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready. (v.7)


If in the parable of the expelled guest means an unredeemed unbeliever is dismissed from the celebration because he arrives
presumptiously and naively ill-dressed (Matt. 22:10) that would mean that an unbeliever was raptured to heaven. (?!?)

And those slaves went out into the streets and gathered all whom they found, both evil and good, and the wedding feast was filled with those reclining at table.
But when the king came in to look at those reclining at table, he saw there a man who was not clothed with a wedding garment,
And he said to him, Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment? And he was speechless. (Matt. 22:10-12)


Do you beleive that both Christians and unbelievers will BOTH be raptured to heaven and THEN the Lord would expel those
unbelievers? I do not believe this. So before we talk more about how robes could have different meanings in the Bible, see
that the dismissed "friend" of the King in the parable of Matt. 22:1-13 should not be an unredeemed unbeliever taken to heaven.

Though he is dealt with harshly for arriving presumptiously unprepared, it does not say he goes to the eternal punishment.
It says he is sent to "outer darkness." This is temporary unpleasant suffering of "loss" along the same concept of some
being saved yet so as through fire in
First Corinthians 3:15b - ". . . he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

Let me speak to different meanings of robes in another post.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0