He was referring to the small remnants who WILL go through the great tribulation! They are not appointed to wrath because God will preserve them. There’s only one return of Jesus “immediately after the tribulation”!
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He was referring to the small remnants who WILL go through the great tribulation! They are not appointed to wrath because God will preserve them. There’s only one return of Jesus “immediately after the tribulation”!Jesus's coming in 1Thessalonians4:15-18 is his coming of John14:2-3. Jesus's second coming is in Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14.
John 14:
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
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Then you assume wrong. Jesus will descend on a cloud, “we” are not rising in the cloud. What it really says is the gathering of the remnant believers who will witness and welcome the Lord’s return on Mount Olive, just as the disciples watched the Lord ascend, simple as that.Acts 1:11 "This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”
1 Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
We assume that Acts says Jesus feet will touch the ground. In 1 Thess we are told that we who are alive shall be caught up together to meet them in the clouds. This is clearly talking about the rapture because "caught up" means rapture.
I do not know where you found the word "rising". The verse says caught up. Do you believe the Bible? Are you saying we are not "caught up" as the Bible says?“we” are not rising in the cloud.
I didn’t find the word “rising”, but that’s the foregone conclusion if you believe we are to meet the Lord up high in the sky and that’s what i’ve been trying to debunk. That word “air” is not referring to the sky, but the whole earth in general. There’s a verse in Ephesians which calls Satan the prince of the air.I do not know where you found the word "rising". The verse says caught up. Do you believe the Bible? Are you saying we are not "caught up" as the Bible says?
harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Original Word: ἁρπάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: harpazó
Phonetic Spelling: (har-pad'-zo)
Definition: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Usage: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.
HELPS Word-studies
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).
Where are they going to be gathered?What it really says is the gathering of the remnant believers who will witness and welcome the Lord’s return on Mount Olive, just as the disciples watched the Lord ascend, simple as that.
Different book.I think every name is written in the Lambs book of life from the foundation of the world. Only names are blotted out. David says: "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living"
Why don't you read Acts 1, friend. The angels promised the seconding coming "in the same manner", meaning a gathering at Mount Olive where the Lord ascended into heaven, simple as that. And unfortunately, it seems you're caught up in the dictionary definition without any of your own understanding.Where are they going to be gathered?
The phrase "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is a translation of the Greek word "ἁρπάζω" (harpazó), which means "to seize" or "to snatch away."
I have read all of the Bible 7 times. You think acts and Thessalonians are the same event. MOST pastors believe they are two different events. With all the disagreement on this subject you are picking on the one thing that people usually agree on.Why don't you read Acts 1, friend.
So you think that Rev 13:8 "the book of life of the Lamb having been slain" is different from the Lambs book of life. Even though the NIV calls this the lambs book of life. Do you think that is an error in translation?Different book.
You changed books again.So you think that Rev 13:8 "the book of life of the Lamb having been slain" is different from the Lambs book of life. Even though the NIV calls this the lambs book of life. Do you think that is an error in translation?
Jonathan, go here, and follow the how to instructions in post #9.He was referring to the small remnants who WILL go through the great tribulation! They are not appointed to wrath because God will preserve them. There’s only one return of Jesus “immediately after the tribulation”!
Ok, lets take a look at that. Psalm 69:28 "May they be blotted out of the Book of Life and not listed with the righteous".The original post I responded to was about the book on Psalms. Different book.
David is talking about a different topic. Psalms is poetic. Book of the living is not the Lambs book of Life.Ok, lets take a look at that. Psalm 69:28 "May they be blotted out of the Book of Life and not listed with the righteous".
They say God's pencil does not have an eraser. He does not make mistakes. Then why would He write someone into the Book of Life ONLY to blot them out? David seems to have the attitude that their are people that never had any value to earn their way into the Book of Life.
For David there is a distinction made between being "good" and being "righteous." While these terms can sometimes overlap in meaning, they often carry distinct theological and moral connotations.
Being Good: While Paul's primary focus is on righteousness through faith, he also addresses the importance of virtuous behavior, often described as living a "good" or "holy" life. Paul emphasizes the need for believers to exhibit qualities such as love, kindness, patience, and self-control. For instance, in Galatians 5:22-23 (NIV), he speaks of the fruit of the Spirit, which includes goodness: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control."
I don't think it would help by putting labels on ourselves, those are self-limiting beliefs that confine ourselves in little boxes. I don't wanna call myself pre, mid or post trib because I have a fundamentally different understanding of rapture. You guys all believe it's a teleportation into heaven, I see it as future resurrection based on the overarching narrative of the whole Scripture.Jonathan, go here, and follow the how to instructions in post #9.
I think it would help....
in our discussions, if everyone would put in their forum member display information their eschatological view point - i.e. futurist, historicist, partial preterist, idealist. See my description of myself to the left - as being a futurist, for example. Jerryhuerta shows himself as a...www.christianforums.com
You don't believe in the translation of the living into eternal incorruptible bodies ?I don't think it would help by putting labels on ourselves, those are self-limiting beliefs that confine ourselves in little boxes. I don't wanna call myself pre, mid or post trib because I have a fundamentally different understanding of rapture. You guys all believe it's a teleportation into heaven, I see it as future resurrection based on the overarching narrative of the whole Scripture.
I believe that's called RESURRECTION, by the same power that raised Christ from the dead. Here's a daunting challenge for you: Go read the ENTIRE chapter of 1 Cor. 15, summarize the chapter with your own words, then fit 15:51-52 wherein the term "incorruptible bodies" is found into this summary.You don't believe in the translation of the living into eternal incorruptible bodies ?
There wouldn’t be so much controversy on this doctrine if it’s the “one thing” that people usually agree on. The word “rapture” is a verb, and a verb needs to be attached to a subject and an object. If you turn a verb into a noun without either subject nor object, then it loses its meaning.I have read all of the Bible 7 times. You think acts and Thessalonians are the same event. MOST pastors believe they are two different events. With all the disagreement on this subject you are picking on the one thing that people usually agree on.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,I believe that's called RESURRECTION, by the same power that raised Christ from the dead. Here's a daunting challenge for you: Go read the ENTIRE chapter of 1 Cor. 15, summarize the chapter with your own words, then fit 15:51-52 wherein the term "incorruptible bodies" is found into this summary.
I don't beleive that we could be raptured "anytime, before the end of this sermon," in the manner of sudden teleportation shown in the Left Behind series, as I've heard so often, and yet not a single pre-tribber ever mentioned the aspect of resurrection, because resurrection indicates we'll be dead first.So why don't you believe in the mystery ?
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