What does the term "rapture" means to you - other than the dictionary definition of "upcatching"?

[Timtofly]

A few posters keep speaking to me of Jesus leading OT or other people to heaven.
Can someone show me even one unambiguous Bible passage which shows there are people in heaven today?

Can you show one unambiguous passage people are in heaven at any point in time?


The time of resurrection started at the Cross. There is not one single verse that uses the word "single" to describe a future one time resurrection. That single one time resurrection is the biggest assumption in eschatology. That is the basis of both Amil and post mill thought processes.

Even the rapture is a resurrection out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. You cannot take death to heaven. Paul states all will be changed. Not that all will be raptured. A resurrection is the change from death to life. The Cross was that last day OT resurrection. They were removed from death and given eternal life.

After the Cross, none of those with the second birth would ever taste death again. Physical death is not dying. Physical death is the resurrection from death into eternal life. All Scripture is presented as that change. Some even call the second birth, the first resurrection. They are two seperate phenomenon. The second birth places us into God's family permanently. Physical death places us into God's permanent incorruptible physical body. 2 Corinthians 5:1.

That is the first resurrection. The problem is no one wants to see the distinction between a physical resurrection and the second birth. So they call any passage on the first resurrection ambiguous or merely symbolic, and only apply a spiritual meaning. Lazarus was given the first resurrection from Adam's dead corruptible flesh out of death, into God's permanent incorruptible physical body. We are just not told that Lazarus ascended with the entire OT redeemed with Christ. So theology just assumes they all were in bondage of death instead of gaining the victory over death. Instead of accepting the point, that in Christ after the Cross, death was no longer a factor for all the OT redeemed.

The church was removed from Abraham's bosom and allowed direct access to Paradise. That is the difference between tasting death, and enjoying eternal life. Enoch, Elijah, and Moses could enter Paradise throughout the OT period. Not sure why many think Scripture is ambiguous on that regard? The thief entered Paradise that day when he physically died. The rest of Abraham's bosom ascended when Jesus ascended privately on Sunday morning. Jesus told Mary, he had to ascend, but would return that day. Not every OT redeemed were buried in Jerusalem. Abraham was not buried in Jerusalem. The difference between that ascension and the rapture at the Second Coming is only that they all were gathered as Jesus ascended. They all were caught up. Jesus is descending to the earth at the Second Coming. He brings those in Paradise part way to meet those on earth caught up. But even those in Paradise are caught up from Paradise by angels just like those caught up from the earth. But those in Paradise don't need changed. They were already changed to be in Paradise. The only changed people are those still alive in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

If you think Paul's writings are ambiguous on the subject, so does theology, which then explains that those in Paradise need a resurrection, but they don't. They have been with Jesus since Resurrection Sunday, serving God day and night in that heavenly temple. And souls have been joining them out of the great tribulation that started at Pentecost. The Second Coming brings those days of tribulation to a close. The church is removed first.

But Jesus is on the earth with the angels for the final harvest. That is the time of Jacob's trouble. Stating there are earthquakes at times of resurrection is only true of the earthquake when Jesus declared it is finished on the Cross. That was the only resurrection out of Abraham's bosom. The sting of death was removed for those redeemed and part of the second birth. No one has faced death nor entered Abraham's bosom since the Cross. No teaching nor doctrine of the church is explicit in Scripture. Not sure the demand for such a proof. We Know Jesus died on the Cross, yet the Atonement Covenant is still not explicit in Scripture. That is the Covenant found in Daniel 9:24-27. Yet many assume a future 7 year Covenant of their own assumption. A future 7 year covenant is as ambiguous as Paradise. And only Paradise is a reality. Paradise is where the redeemed have been since the thief on the Cross was given that promise.

John is describing Paradise in Revelation 7:9-17. When Paul wrote of Paradise, he was not allowed to write about what he witnessed. We are not told why. But that does not mean that Paradise is only future.

Many think that the description of the New Jerusalem is not even declaring a physical place. They are in essence declaring it unlawful to be describing a physical place. Now that is just want Paul declared about Paradise. Now how would Paul describe modern day life? If we in the modern world cannot accept the New Jerusalem as being physical, how would Paul describe today? It would be an impossibility to him, and unlawful or dealing only with the imagination and not physical at all.

John described Paradise using something relatable to the first century. Paul only glimpsed at the wonder of it all that could not be explained in the first century. John saw Paradise as it was, already there. Paul saw Paradise as it was, already there. Paul saw that it was beyond understanding that his first century mind could not comprehend. John also witnessed all the events surrounding the Second Coming. John saw into the NHNE. He describes it for those living in the first century, even if they could not comprehend such physical properties. And even today, some want to symbolize it all away.

All the redeemed are with the Lord if they are not currently on the earth. There is no separation of death to prevent that reality. Yet even those who declare the Cross as the moment all was accomplished, still cannot accept the fact death no longer separates those in Christ. They are physically enjoying Paradise, and have been since the day Jesus finished the physical aspect of God's plan on the Cross. There was a resurrection in totality at that point, of the OT redeemed. Not a partial restoration of a few, but all were taken from Abraham's bosom and given a resurrection the same as Lazarus was given that physical resurrection. They all ascended, were caught up to Paradise with Jesus Christ.

 

[Timtofly]

Probably died again, like Lazarus, and waiting for the real resurrection that leads to eternal life.

You don't expect much from Jesus being the resurrection and the life, do you? Should every one look forward to just keep dying over and over again, every time they are resurrected?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

You don't expect much from Jesus being the resurrection and the life, do you? Should every one look forward to just keep dying over and over again, every time they are resurrected?

Nope, it is written that Jesus is the first who has risen from the dead, that’s the true resurrection to eternal life. Lazarus and the girl whom he resurrected were still subject to death.

 

[iamlamad]

That is a heresy. There’s only a second coming, no third or more comings.

Millions of believers today can count two more comings. I believe they are correct.
He will come first FOR his saints, then again over seven years later WITH His saints.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Millions of believers today can count two more comings. I believe they are correct.
He will come first FOR his saints, then again over seven years later WITH His saints.

I believe they don't, it's an elusive fantasy invented by John Darby Nelson.

 

[Timtofly]

Nope, Daniel 12:2 is specifically referring to the final resurrections in Rev. 20. That's the only place where the unsaved are being resurrected in "everlasting comtempt."

No. Daniel sees the broadest view of the end, not one pinpoint in time.

Besides there will be some at the GWT resurrected to eternal life. At least they will have a chance to turn to God and remain in the Lamb's book of life. So God allows both at the GWT. But only God knows if any will take the opportunity. I don't think any one but Daniel can be sure of that event.

But to limit it to Daniel's view and deny all the Resurrections mentioned in the NT is foolishness. None of them contradict Daniel's vision. They just point out a clearer picture.

Also Revelation 20 does not even say a resurrection will occur. It says a resurrection cannot occur until the thousand years are over. Even John was not hopeful nor stated a resurrection. In fact all John saw or at least recorded was that the dead were still the dead and all the dead were cast into the LOF. As I said, no one can say what Daniel said and overrule what was revealed in the NT. The NT gives us a clearer timeline and many even get that timeline wrong.

Besides, what is a resurrection even mean to you concerning the dead? If they are given an eternal physical body, then that would apply equally to the living cast alive into the LOF. Just like a rapture changes those in Christ, which is a physical resurrection out of death, are you saying that can happen to the lost like the goats and tares thrown alive into the LOF? The whole point many miss about the Second Coming is the total removal of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. No one enters the Millennium Kingdom in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

 

[Timtofly]

Nope, it is written that Jesus is the first who has risen from the dead, that’s the true resurrection to eternal life. Lazarus and the girl whom he resurrected were still subject to death.

Nope, no verse claims that. Jesus was the firstborn, not the first resurrected.

There is a vast difference between being born and being resurrected.

Lazarus was dead longer than Jesus was in the tomb. His body was decayed. Lazarus had a new body, not a resurrection of his dead body. The girl was only dead a few hours.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Nope, no verse claims that. Jesus was the firstborn, not the first resurrected.

There is a vast difference between being born and being resurrected.

Lazarus was dead longer than Jesus was in the tomb. His body was decayed. Lazarus had a new body, not a resurrection of his dead body. The girl was only dead a few hours.

Actually, scripture does say He was the first to be raised from the dead.
Acts 26:23
that the Christ would suffer, and as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to our people and to the Gentiles."
1 Corinthians 15:20
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.


Hebrews 11:
35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused their release, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

So the question is, what's the "better resurrection"? I believe it's the resurrection from The Death of Adam on the day he ate of it when he died away from God's presence spiritually....

No one else before Christ was made alive in the Spirit.
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit,
John 3:6That having been born of the flesh is flesh, and that having been born of the Spirit is spirit.

 

[Timtofly]

Actually, scripture does say He was the first to be raised from the dead.
Acts 26:23
that the Christ would suffer, and as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to our people and to the Gentiles."
1 Corinthians 15:20
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.


Hebrews 11:
35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused their release, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

So the question is, what's the "better resurrection"? I believe it's the resurrection from The Death of Adam on the day he ate of it when he died away from God's presence spiritually....

No one else before Christ was made alive in the Spirit.
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit,
John 3:6That having been born of the flesh is flesh, and that having been born of the Spirit is spirit.

Paul did not say Jesus was the first to be resurrected. Paul said that Moses and the prophets prophesied that Jesus would be the one to suffer on the Cross and be the first to be resurrected. Then Jesus resurrected Lazarus and proved He was the Resurrection and the Life. Moses and the prophets were not told that Lazarus would be resurrected.

The full Resurrection and Restoration is not until the Second Coming. The physical resurrection and restoration were available starting with Lazarus and the OT redeemed at the Cross. None of Adam's offspring have been fully restored as sons of God as far as we know. That happens at the 5th Seal according to John, and the Second Coming according to Paul and John. 1 John 3:2

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

Both John and Paul claim all the redeemed will be like Jesus at the Second Coming, even though we are named as sons of God, we will not be fully restored until then. But a physical resurrection was already available, and given to Lazarus. Not the resuscitation of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. A resurrection into God's permanent incorruptible physical body. The restoration of the spirit has not happened.

Both the body and spirit need to be restored. All you have going for you is your soul has received the second birth into the family of God. You were born in the flesh with Adam's dead flesh. Your soul was born into God's family of the Holy Spirit. But your permanent body is put on when the soul leaves Adam's dead flesh. Putting on the spirit is at the Second Coming. That is not a birth nor resurrection. That is the restoration of the image of God.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Paul did not say Jesus was the first to be resurrected. Paul said that Moses and the prophets prophesied that Jesus would be the one to suffer on the Cross and be the first to be resurrected. Then Jesus resurrected Lazarus and proved He was the Resurrection and the Life. Moses and the prophets were not told that Lazarus would be resurrected.

I gave you two verses that say He was the first to be raised from the dead. Why do you say He wasn't?
Then we have Paul saying this: 1 Corinthians 15:16For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.…

Lazarus, the one whom Jesus loved, would remain until Jesus came, yet he would still die.

John 21:20Peter turned and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them, the one who also had leaned back against him during the supper and had said, “Lord, who is it that is going to betray you?” 21When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, “Lord, what about this man?” 22Jesus said to him, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!” 23So the saying spread abroad among the brothers that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?”

On top of that, Jesus told Martha "
John 11:1Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2It was Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was ill. 3So the sisters sent to him, saying, “Lord, he whom you love is ill.” 4But when Jesus heard it he said, “This illness does not lead to death. It is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”
And since it goes on to say that Lazarus was raised from the dead, we have a seeming contradiction. The only solution I can think of is that though Lazarus's body died, his spirit remained with him and re-entered his body when Jesus called him forth.

1 John 3:2

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

It certainly cannot be about the physical body, as they walked with Him before and after His resurrection as well as watched Him ascend into heaven.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Actually, scripture does say He was the first to be raised from the dead.
Acts 26:23
that the Christ would suffer, and as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to our people and to the Gentiles."
1 Corinthians 15:20
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

There is some disagreement in the translations as to what the word "first" is applying to - whether to Christ's resurrection or to Christ's first actions after the resurrection. Here is just one of those alternate translations in the ERV: "...How that the Christ must suffer, and how that he first by the resurrection of the dead should proclaim light both to the people and to the Gentiles."

In this translation as well as others, the statement is not that Christ was the first to rise from the dead, but that after His resurrection, He was the first to proclaim light to both the people of the Jews as well as the Gentiles (as in "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature...".

The title of the "First-fruits" is not unique to Christ alone, since this title was also given to the 144,000 "First-fruits" in Revelation 14:4. These were raised from the dead on the same day Christ was (as the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints).

 

[oikonomia]

Paul did not say Jesus was the first to be resurrected.

Firstborn from the dead means topmost, preeminent one resurrected.
Of course we read of some brought back to life in the Bible prior to Christ's resurrection.

No raising is as important as that of Christ.

Paul said that Moses and the prophets prophesied that Jesus would be the one to suffer on the Cross and be the first to be resurrected. Then Jesus resurrected Lazarus and proved He was the Resurrection and the Life. Moses and the prophets were not told that Lazarus would be resurrected.

The Onlybegotten resurrected to be the Elder Brother of those He raises from the dead inwardly and outwardly to be sons of God.

As the preeminent one resurrected He is "the beginning" of a new humanity.

And He is the Head of the Body, the church; He is the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead, that He Himself might have the first place in all things; (Col. 1:18)

 

[3 Resurrections]

Firstborn crom the dead means topmost, preeminent one resurrected.
Of course we read of some brought back to life in the Bible prior to Christ's resurrection.

You've made some good points here, establishing Christ's "Firstborn" status as the Preeminent One over all His brethren. The "First-born" title belongs ever and always to Christ alone above all others. Likewise for the title "First begotten of the dead" (Rev. 1:5) . This "First begotten" status speaks of more than just resurrection when the physical body is raised above ground. It was the occasion of Christ being the very first resurrected, glorified human form to ascend to heaven and stand before God's presence. Christ accomplished this on His resurrection-day ascension to the Father, when He was consecrated as our Great High Priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

The Psalms 2:7 verse spoke in prophecy that God would announce directly to the ascended Son on that day, "Thou art my Son, THIS DAY have I begotten thee." No other bodily-resurrected individual before that point had ever stood in God's presence in heaven, which gave Christ that unique title of being the "First begotten of the dead" and the "Firstborn".

 

[Timtofly]

I gave you two verses that say He was the first to be raised from the dead. Why do you say He wasn't?
Then we have Paul saying this: 1 Corinthians 15:16For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.…

Lazarus, the one whom Jesus loved, would remain until Jesus came, yet he would still die.

John 21:20Peter turned and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them, the one who also had leaned back against him during the supper and had said, “Lord, who is it that is going to betray you?” 21When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, “Lord, what about this man?” 22Jesus said to him, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!” 23So the saying spread abroad among the brothers that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?”

On top of that, Jesus told Martha "
John 11:1Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2It was Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was ill. 3So the sisters sent to him, saying, “Lord, he whom you love is ill.” 4But when Jesus heard it he said, “This illness does not lead to death. It is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”
And since it goes on to say that Lazarus was raised from the dead, we have a seeming contradiction. The only solution I can think of is that though Lazarus's body died, his spirit remained with him and re-entered his body when Jesus called him forth.

It certainly cannot be about the physical body, as they walked with Him before and after His resurrection as well as watched Him ascend into heaven.

Because Jesus raised Lazarus from his grave after Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom for 4 days.

Lazarus was the first to leave Abraham's bosom after that length of time. One day longer than even Jesus.

Why would God send Lazarus back to a state of death hours later?

Why do you think Lazarus was then not allowed into Paradise like the thief on the cross?

 

[Timtofly]

Firstborn from the dead means topmost, preeminent one resurrected.
Of course we read of some brought back to life in the Bible prior to Christ's resurrection.

No raising is as important as that of Christ.

The Onlybegotten resurrected to be the Elder Brother of those He raises from the dead inwardly and outwardly to be sons of God.

As the preeminent one resurrected He is "the beginning" of a new humanity.

And He is the Head of the Body, the church; He is the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead, that He Himself might have the first place in all things; (Col. 1:18)

Jesus was not born from death. Jesus was God.

Jesus was human but not in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. So Jesus was firstborn along side of the rest of dead flesh humanity. Not that Jesus was dead flesh humanity.

Jesus is the only human to retain His original body. Because that body was not in Adam's dead image, but God's image. So a son of God has a physical body in God's image, just like Jesus had a physical body on the earth and looked like every other human, but without sin and death.

Yes Jesus physically died, yet that same body came back to life. Lazarus did not return in death and sickness looking like a rotting zombie after 4 days. He had the same body Jesus already had. So Jesus had that body first since birth. Not that Jesus had to die first, but Lazarus was like those others that came out of their graves when Jesus died. Some having been dead for thousands of years, all released from Abraham's bosom like Lazarus. Lazarus simply ascended to heaven with Jesus to Paradise with the rest of those from Abraham's bosom. The thief was already in Paradise 3 days earlier.

Jesus was not resurrected out of Abraham's bosom. Jesus was the one who went and led them out immediately the instant He died. Jesus Himself waited 3 days as He said, to fulfill His own prophesy about 3 days later. So even all of Abraham's bosom was resurrected prior to when the stone was rolled away by the angel. Do you need to declare none of that happened based on what some verses stated years later?

The word firstborn is not the same as first resurrected. Even if there is a verse that states He was the first to be resurrected, that verse would apply to all alive after the death, burial, and resurrection. Does it apply to all those in Abraham's bosom, who also were resurrected?

Jesus is the preeminent human of all humanity. If that is the point of that verse, what has that to do with the first to be resurrected? Jesus did not need redemption nor salvation, so was never in a state of mortality like other humans.

 

[oikonomia]

Jesus was not born from death. Jesus was God.

Jesus was human but not in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. So Jesus was firstborn along side of the rest of dead flesh humanity. Not that Jesus was dead flesh humanity.

I do not understand your objections. Below you yourself admit that in addition to Jesus being God He is also a man -
"Jesus is the preeminent human of all humanity".

As a man He could die. As God the significance of His death has eternal consequences.
Of course His death was genuine.

And the living One; and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades. (Rev. 1:11)

Any thought that the man Jesus's death was not genuine is a not biblical. Whatever else occured with Him in Hades doesn't
change that He DIED. Nor does it altar that He is God-man.

Jesus is the only human to retain His original body.

Jesus was God-man when dying on the cross. He is God-man in resurrection and on into eternity.
He brought God into humanity in His incarnation. And in His resurrection He brought man into God.

He brought not only ONE man, Himself, into God. He brought a new humanity of brothers into God and that forever.
This makes His resurrection no common resurrection like that of Lazarus or the widow's son who in time preceded the resurrection of Jesus.
The resurrection of Jesus caused the glorification of man in God. He wore that humanity back to the throne of God forever.
And the glorified God-man in resurrection became the life source of a new divinized humanity. So in His resurrection He became
the all-inclusive life giving Spirit. So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul”; the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45)

It is true that God raised other human beings from the dead in time previous to the Son. But the resurrection of Jesus transcends all of those because He became a life giving Spirit to impart all His work and person into a new humanity.

This verse shows that what was in Him concealed by the shell of His humanity was released in death to mass produce what He was.

And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.
Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. (John 12:24)

His life, living, death, resurretion, exaltation are all the ingredients of this life giving Spirit of Christ by which God can have a new humanity
of men brought into God for the eternal purpose for God to have many sons, brothers of the Firstborn Son, conformed to His image.

For I delivered to you, first of all, that which also I received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; (1 Cor. 5:3)

But He charged them . . . Saying, The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. (Luke 9:21,22)

That He was cut off out of the land of the living (Isa. 53:8)
And they assigned His grave with the wicked, / But with a rich man in His death, (v.9)
He poured out His life unto death (v.12)

Because that body was not in Adam's dead image, but God's image. So a son of God has a physical body in God's image, just like Jesus had a physical body on the earth and looked like every other human, but without sin and death.

I do not understand your attempt to make Christ's death somehow not genuine.
The fact that He knew no sin does not make His death not genuine.
The fact that He came in the likeness of the flesh of sin but without sin does not make His death not genuine.

Yes Jesus physically died, yet that same body came back to life.

He came back with the divine glory invading His human body. He gave His disciples a preview and glimpse of this
on the Mount of Transfiguration. But He told them to tell no one until He be raised from the dead.

And He was transfigured before them, and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as the light. (Matt. 17:2)
And as they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is raised from the dead. (v.9)

Temporarily, for a moment He unveiled the divine glory concealed in the flesh of His humanity. But He charged them that they
should tell no one until that glory be perminently saturating His physical human body at His resurrection.

Furthermore, He indicated that this would be the state that His disciples ALSO would participate in the kingdom's appearance.
For before the event He told them in a few days they would see while yet alive the nature of His coming kingdom.

Truly I say to you, There are some of those standing here who shall by no means taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. (Matt. 16:28)

To the overcoming believers, the world will also marvel at the divine glory within them as well in the next age.
When He comes to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all those who have believed (because our testimony to you was believed) in that day. (2 Thess. 1:10)

Both His transfiguration and the marveling at His saints at their glorified state are a matter of Jesus bring man into God.
And it is the truth of Him dispensing the divine life into man to be "the Firstborn among many brothers." (Rom. 8:28)
It is also Him as the true Captian Joshua leading many sons into the divine expression, the divine glory.
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, (Heb. 2:10a)

Lazarus did not return in death and sickness looking like a rotting zombie after 4 days.

We are not told a thing about Lazarus after he was resurrected and seen eating a meal in Martha's house. (John 12)
You cannot create any major tenet of the Christian faith based on speculation about what happened afterward to Lazarus.
We are told NOTHING about that. You have ONLY your imagination. Not a WORD does the New Testament teach you
about Lazarus afterwards his death and resurrection.

Why are you attempting to construct some major theological treatise on what you are told NOTHING about?

He had the same body Jesus already had. So Jesus had that body first since birth.

The New Testament is a silent about whatever happened to Lazarus after the testimony he had as it is silent about
the Joseph's life, the supposed father of Jesus. Where it is totally silent speculate not.

If God wanted us to know all about what happened to Lazarus after he was seen having dinner at Martha's house, He would have
TOLD us in the New Testament. Nothing is said about that. So speculate not. Just say "Amen" to what we ARE told.

Does the Gospel whisper anything about the life of Joseph the alledged father of Jesus after the story of His birth?
Not a word do we know what Joseph did. Speculate not. Nor concoct some major doctrine about it.
He was a carpenter with several children, Jesus the virgin born Son of God was the oldest in the family.
Not another word are we told. Nor are we told another word about what happened to Lazarus after his meal in Bethany at his sisters' house.

Base no major tenet of the Christian Gospel on what you speculate occured with Lazarus after John chapter 12. Its none of our business.

Not that Jesus had to die first, but Lazarus was like those others that came out of their graves when Jesus died. Some having been dead for thousands of years, all released from Abraham's bosom like Lazarus. Lazarus simply ascended to heaven with Jesus to Paradise with the rest of those from Abraham's bosom. The thief was already in Paradise 3 days earlier.

I say again - base no invented major doctrine of the New Testament on total biblical SILENCE about what happened to Lazarus.

Further imaginative speculations on the whereabouts and details of Lazarus I have no interest in at all.
I barely have enough time to dive into all the unsearchable riches of truth of what we are TOLD about the Son of God.
I have no heart to hear imaginative doctrines about what someone speculates occured with Lazarus.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Because Jesus raised Lazarus from his grave after Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom for 4 days.

Lazarus was the first to leave Abraham's bosom after that length of time. One day longer than even Jesus.

Why would God send Lazarus back to a state of death hours later?

Why do you think Lazarus was then not allowed into Paradise like the thief on the cross?

I'll have to disagree, because scripture just doesn't say, but we do know that final death is when the body returns to the dust of the ground and the spirit returns to God. Ecclesiastes 12:7

 

[Timtofly]

I do not understand your objections. Below you yourself admit that in addition to Jesus being God He is also a man -
"Jesus is the preeminent human of all humanity".

As a man He could die. As God the significance of His death has eternal consequences.
Of course His death was genuine.

And the living One; and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades. (Rev. 1:11)

Any thought that the man Jesus's death was not genuine is a not biblical. Whatever else occured with Him in Hades doesn't
change that He DIED. Nor does it altar that He is God-man.

Jesus was God-man when dying on the cross. He is God-man in resurrection and on into eternity.
He brought God into humanity in His incarnation. And in His resurrection He brought man into God.

He brought not only ONE man, Himself, into God. He brought a new humanity of brothers into God and that forever.
This makes His resurrection no common resurrection like that of Lazarus or the widow's son who in time preceded the resurrection of Jesus.
The resurrection of Jesus caused the glorification of man in God. He wore that humanity back to the throne of God forever.
And the glorified God-man in resurrection became the life source of a new divinized humanity. So in His resurrection He became
the all-inclusive life giving Spirit. So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul”; the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45)

It is true that God raised other human beings from the dead in time previous to the Son. But the resurrection of Jesus transcends all of those because He became a life giving Spirit to impart all His work and person into a new humanity.

This verse shows that what was in Him concealed by the shell of His humanity was released in death to mass produce what He was.

And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.
Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. (John 12:24)

His life, living, death, resurretion, exaltation are all the ingredients of this life giving Spirit of Christ by which God can have a new humanity
of men brought into God for the eternal purpose for God to have many sons, brothers of the Firstborn Son, conformed to His image.

For I delivered to you, first of all, that which also I received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; (1 Cor. 5:3)

But He charged them . . . Saying, The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. (Luke 9:21,22)

That He was cut off out of the land of the living (Isa. 53:8)
And they assigned His grave with the wicked, / But with a rich man in His death, (v.9)
He poured out His life unto death (v.12)


I do not understand your attempt to make Christ's death somehow not genuine.
The fact that He knew no sin does not make His death not genuine.
The fact that He came in the likeness of the flesh of sin but without sin does not make His death not genuine.


He came back with the divine glory invading His human body. He gave His disciples a preview and glimpse of this
on the Mount of Transfiguration. But He told them to tell no one until He be raised from the dead.

And He was transfigured before them, and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as the light. (Matt. 17:2)
And as they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is raised from the dead. (v.9)

Temporarily, for a moment He unveiled the divine glory concealed in the flesh of His humanity. But He charged them that they
should tell no one until that glory be perminently saturating His physical human body at His resurrection.

Furthermore, He indicated that this would be the state that His disciples ALSO would participate in the kingdom's appearance.
For before the event He told them in a few days they would see while yet alive the nature of His coming kingdom.

Truly I say to you, There are some of those standing here who shall by no means taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom. (Matt. 16:28)

To the overcoming believers, the world will also marvel at the divine glory within them as well in the next age.
When He comes to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all those who have believed (because our testimony to you was believed) in that day. (2 Thess. 1:10)

Both His transfiguration and the marveling at His saints at their glorified state are a matter of Jesus bring man into God.
And it is the truth of Him dispensing the divine life into man to be "the Firstborn among many brothers." (Rom. 8:28)
It is also Him as the true Captian Joshua leading many sons into the divine expression, the divine glory.
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, (Heb. 2:10a)


We are not told a thing about Lazarus after he was resurrected and seen eating a meal in Martha's house. (John 12)
You cannot create any major tenet of the Christian faith based on speculation about what happened afterward to Lazarus.
We are told NOTHING about that. You have ONLY your imagination. Not a WORD does the New Testament teach you
about Lazarus afterwards his death and resurrection.

Why are you attempting to construct some major theological treatise on what you are told NOTHING about?


The New Testament is a silent about whatever happened to Lazarus after the testimony he had as it is silent about
the Joseph's life, the supposed father of Jesus. Where it is totally silent speculate not.

If God wanted us to know all about what happened to Lazarus after he was seen having dinner at Martha's house, He would have
TOLD us in the New Testament. Nothing is said about that. So speculate not. Just say "Amen" to what we ARE told.

Does the Gospel whisper anything about the life of Joseph the alledged father of Jesus after the story of His birth?
Not a word do we know what Joseph did. Speculate not. Nor concoct some major doctrine about it.
He was a carpenter with several children, Jesus the virgin born Son of God was the oldest in the family.
Not another word are we told. Nor are we told another word about what happened to Lazarus after his meal in Bethany at his sisters' house.

Base no major tenet of the Christian Gospel on what you speculate occured with Lazarus after John chapter 12. Its none of our business.

I say again - base no invented major doctrine of the New Testament on total biblical SILENCE about what happened to Lazarus.

Further imaginative speculations on the whereabouts and details of Lazarus I have no interest in at all.
I barely have enough time to dive into all the unsearchable riches of truth of what we are TOLD about the Son of God.
I have no heart to hear imaginative doctrines about what someone speculates occured with Lazarus.

The Resurrection of Lazarus is not a new tenant. The Resurrection and the Life is the only tenant. That was true then and still true today.

I object to your view Jesus was born a sinner in need of redemption.

 

[Timtofly]

I'll have to disagree, because scripture just doesn't say, but we do know that final death is when the body returns to the dust of the ground and the spirit returns to God. Ecclesiastes 12:7

We also know that all in Christ will never die. John 11:26

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

 

[oikonomia]

I object to your view Jesus was born a sinner in need of redemption.

Are you lashing out at strawmen ? Please quote me where I wrote anywhere that
Jesus was a sinner in need of redemption.

And if you cannot produce the quotation of me teaching that, a retraction of the accusation
would be the thing of maturity for you to do. Retract if you cannot prove your accusation.

Now I do on occasion make typos. I've made some bad ones over the years.
I catch them and correct them whenever I notice one.

But I stake my eternal salvation on the belief that Jesus was the sinless Lamb of God not needing
redemption from sin.

Him who did not know sin He made sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Cor. 5:21)