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What about Baptism?

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by cougan, Oct 6, 2002.

  1. [[QUOTE:]Originally posted by Ben johnson
    "There was a man named Cornelius ...a devout man who feared God with all his household." You really contend that this household did not believe? They most certainly did. In John 6, that speaks of a PEOPLE, one people that "will be raised up by Jesus". Who are they? Those who BELIEVE, those who God GIVES TO JESUS. Do you understand the context of John 6? The Jews were saying, "Is this not Jesus, whose mother and father we know?" (Isn't this the little boy WE WATCHED GROW UP? Who does He think He is?!?!) Jesus is affirming His DEITY. Because Jesus is GOD, those who sincerely come to GOD, and BELIEVE, GOD GIVES TO JESUS. See John14---Jesus is the MESSIAH; to believe in Jesus, is to believe in God; to believe in God is to believe in Jesus.

    Cornelius and his family WERE BELIEVERS!

    There is no instance in Scripture where the Holy Spirit indwells anyone before they believed.
    It looks like Caiaphas was really a believer....She had "troubling dreams"---do you really contend this means she was FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT? Oh come now---do you think John was "FILLED" in the womb, in the same sense as an adult BELIEVER? This was a prophecy about John's life; John was a believer. Or will you contend that God predestines some people? (Which are we arguing here, "baptism" or "predestination"?)

    The Holy Spirit is ALWAYS conditioned upon our CONSCIOUS BELIEF. Even the supposed "predestination passages", like Eph1; verse 13 says, "HAVING BELIEVED, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise." but the belief came first
    Matt28:19: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." Doesn't say it is for salvation.

     
  2. Ben,  We can go around and around with this, but let's be real and true to God's word.  Answer these:

    Is there anywhere in the new testament that says:

    One must Hear God's word?

    One must believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

     One must repent of all past and present sins?

     One must confess the name of Jesus Christ to be God's son?

     One must be baptized in water for the remission of sins?

    If the bible gives a yes answer to ALL of these question then why are you fighting God?

    And so that you do not misunderstand what the CoC believes, we believe that the bible teaches that one must do all of these, and this is the way into the body of Christ where salvation is. 1 Tim.2:10
     
  3. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    I've never heard that He took our sins into the water---if that is true, then our sins were forgiven at the waterbaptism.

    ...which, then, begs the question, what was the CROSS for?
    Hmmm---okayyy, please tell me why "immersed into Christ" is referring to WATER, rather than simply meaning, "immersed into Christ". In Rm6:5 it says, "united with Him in the likeness of death, AND ALSO in the likeness of His resurrection; our old self crucified with Him, no longer slaves to sin, and we shall live with Him. Therefore do not let sin reign... but present yourselves to God as resurrected, as instruments of righteousness to God." Please tell me why this requires water, and not simply occurs upon belief? (Please cite Scripture...)

    Is there anywhere in the new testament that says:

    &#149One must Hear God's word?
    YES. Rom10:17,14

    &#149One must believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?
    Yes. Jn1:12, 3:16, 6:40.

    &#149One must repent of all past and present sins?
    Yes. Luke 13:3

    &#149One must confess the name of Jesus Christ to be God's son?
    Yes. Rom10:13

    &#149One must be baptized in water for the remission of sins?
    No. In Acts 2:38 it says, "repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" Acts 22:16, "Srise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name." 1Cor6:11: "And such WERE some of you, but you were washed, sanctified, justified, IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, and in the Spirit of our God. (According to the rest of Scripture, is it Christ's NAME, or the WATER that forgives sin?)

    Do you really think "WASHED" in 1Cor6:11 refers to water, or do you think it is spiritual washing---as in, "such WERE some of youi??

    In Matt3:11, John "baptized wiith/by water for repentance". Tell me---does the water affect (or rather effect/accomplish) repentance? Or does repentance come from one's own HEART? I am contending that repentance comes from the heart, repentance preceeds, accompanies, or succeeds waterbaptism---but repentance comes from the heart, FROM BELIEF.

    "If we CONFESS our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1Jn1:9 Where is the water?

    Show me the verse that says "no repentance apart from water".
     

  4. It's funny you used the word "immersed" do you care to tell us what the full meaning is?

    My 1996 addition of Webster's NEW WORLD DICTIONARY AND THESURUS: Define it as 1 to plunge into or as if a liquid 2 to baptize by submerging in water 3 to absorb deeply; engross.

    Thesurus:  v. submerge, dip, douse, plunge, duck, cover with water, drown, bathe, steep, soak, drench,dunk, souse;

    Great choice of words!


    In Acts 2:38 What is to be done in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins?
     
  5. Ben,

    I think I know why you fail to see or understand what the bible clearly saids on the subject of baptism. 2Cor. 4:4 It's called blindness, you have been fighting this so long that your mind cannot connect with plane english.
    We don't have go around and around about the same thing. You talk about FAITH but yet you have no FAITH in what God's word tell you to do to save your soul, but you don't have to feel bad because you are not alone. Satan has power, and he uses it all the time. How hard can it be to believe the words of Jesus when he say's "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"? It take's FAITH to believe that, of which you boast about through out your post. The bible talks about three kinds of FAITHs, there's great FAITH, little FAITH, and no FAITH. It take's Great FAITH to believe what the bible say's baptism in water is all about, you are not the only one who has a problem with it, there are countless millions out there who believe the same as you do about this subject of water baptism. Matt. 7:13-14 tells us of two roads on which we travel, the one of countless millions and the one where few there be that find it. But you make the choice. Do you remember the Poem foot prints in the sand, let Jesus carry you to the truth, and be baptized for the remission of your sins.
     
  6. Ben,

    Did God ever use water to get rid of sins?
     
  7. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
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    Since it was written in GREEK, let's go to the GREEK definition instead (credit to "Blueletterbible.com":

    907 baptizo {bap-tid'-zo}
    from a derivative of 911; TDNT - 1:529,92; verb
    AV - baptize (76), wash 2, baptist 1, baptized + 2258 1; 80
    1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
    2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean
    with water, to wash one's self, bathe
    3) to overwhelm
    ++++
    Not to be confused with 911, bapto. The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped' (bapto) into boiling water and then 'baptised' (baptizo) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change.

    When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g.

    Mark 16:16. 'He that believes and is baptised shall be saved'. Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough. There must be a union with him, a real change, like the vegetable to the pickle!


    Bible Study Magazine, James Montgomery Boice, May 1989.


    Please turn to Matt3:11. Do you agree that the "baptism of the Spirit" is different and separate from "waterbaptism"? (John very clearly makes a distinction). Do you agree that "fire for sinners, the chaff He will burn with unquenchabe fire" is different, separate and distctinct from "waterbaptism"? Then why is it hard for you to understand "the baptism into JESUS, Rom6, is separate and distinct from "waterbaptism"?

    James Montgomery Boice in the above commentary does not take Mark 16:16 to be speaking of "waterbaptism", but rather of the "baptism into Christ". He may be right---I was taking it to mean "water"; but in HIS and in MY identical understanding, it is the BELIEF, the belief that is UNION WITH CHRIST that is salvation.
    Our theological discussions must be confined to theology, which is "the study of Scripture". Thus we are constrained in our opinions to what was written. And what was written about waterbaptism, is that it is "FOR REPENTANCE". Specifically, "as an appeal to God for a clear conscience". Thus when it says "water-baptized-for-the-forgiveness-of-sins", we are confined to discussing, "water-baptized as a sign of REPENTANCE, and appeal to God for a clear conscience, the forgiveness resulting from our BELIEF and REPENTANCE, His justness & faithfulness forgiving our transgressions." Anything beyong this, is not theology.
    But the Bible was written in "plain GREEK"? ;)
    Ah, then, you believe that I (and my "ilk") are on the road to perdition, simply because I understand waterbaptism to be CONSEQUENTIAL to saving-belief. While, I, on the other hand, also think that those who require any DEEDS to unlock salvation, have missed the "ESSENCE OF SALVATION".

    Which of us do you suppose is right? Is it possibe for us to come to agreement on this issue someday?

    :)
     
  8. Let's go to the bare bones of faith, do you believe that God can save us through his Son Jesus Christ?

    Now if his Son Jesus Christ tells us by his Spirit to be baptized for the remission of sins, to be saved do you believe that?

    In Acts 8:26-39 is a classic story of the Ethiopian eunuch, who came to Christ through the teaching of Philip, in your opinion at what point was this eunuch saved, and by the scriptures how can we tell?

    The blood of Christ is what saves us, how do we come in contact with his blood?

    Here's a none biblical question about detergent, is it possiable that the blood of Christ is a detergent that cleanses sins, and that it is activated by water?  Just some food for throught!

    We have a cleansing agent, the blood of Christ, we no that most detergents work best in water, we know that God used water to cleanse the earth of sins once before, then this thing called baptism came into being, we don't understand what it has to do with us, but the bible connected it with the remission of sins from it conception. Matt.3:6; Mark 1:4,5.

    Did Jesus change baptism in water to something else and didn't tell us what it is?

    Does Jesus know what baptism in water is?

    Did Jesus tell us to be baptized in water in the new testament?  Why?

    Can Jesus save us through hearing, believing, repenting, confessing and being baptized in water?

    And those who believe he can, are they saved for believing this?
     
  9. big_ogre2004

    big_ogre2004 New Member

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    WOW over a hundred posts over this matter. I'm not saying I'm indifferent about baptism since I believe that because Christ commanded for us to be baptized, we being obedient should be baptized. Yes, so both Ben and TBIR are in agreement that baptism is commanded and needed. Or am I wrong? (since I really do want to find truth)

    I guess the question is no longer about whether baptism is a required method to save people to go to heaven, since it is our desire to be forgiven of our sins and admitting it that gives us salvation, which I think has been established.

    I guess the real discussion is on whether or not Jesus saves us through belief alone or an addition of baptism. From what I have read, it seems that baptism isn't mandatory since some may not have the opportunity like the guy who repented on the cross next to Jesus. We know that the guy repenting is in heaven because Jesus says that he will be.

    However, it may be possible, just maybe that baptism is a type of confession and can remit us for our sins since publicly we have acknowledged that Jesus has forgiven us. Its almost like asking him alone to forgive us for our sins, except in baptism we are doing it publicly and Jesus can forgive us for our sins.

    The only thing that must be known about baptism is that to be baptized and not believe is not actually confessing and thus cannot save us. So I believe that it comes down to the matter of the heart, which God can only see in deciding whether or not we have truly publicly confessed our sins and can be forgiven. In conclusion, I guess it is the believing that counts, but baptism can be a form of showing this belief.

    If this is not correct, please show me where this belief is wrong. It is truth that we all seek, we're not arguing doctrine especially when those who have truly confessed to Jesus are all brothers in Christ. :)

    *I think this post accomplished nothing, but a nice half time show :)
     
  10. Does the bible say anywhere that men will be saved just like the thief?

    I have no doubt that he was saved, but is  the way he was saved a model for all men?

    Or is the great commission in Matt.28:18-20, Mark 16:15-20, Acts 2:36-41 the way Jesus commanded men to come to him?
     
  11. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    Is James Montgomery an apostle? Is he revealing bibical truth to us by the direct insperation of God? I think you know the answer to this is no. This mere man is stateing his OPINION and his OPINION does not change what the bible clearly says. The definition of the word is correct but the rest is just this mans opinion. I have already told you that there is a difference between water baptism and HS baptism and baptism of fire for sinners are different from one another. I also told you that water baptism was the only one that is commanded. The HS baptism was a promise to the Apostles and was fullfilled on the day of Pentacost. I also showed where this happened to the Gentiles only once in a like manner as to the apostles on the day of Pentacost to show that Gentiles were accepted by God now as well.

    Ben you have already admited that the majority of verses in the NT are refering to water baptism. Mat 28:19, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 8, 1Peter 3:21, Acts 10:47, Acts 22:16.

    Now in Acts 2:38 you made some remark about it meaning being baptized in the name of Jesus and not meaning water baptism. It would be safe to say that you thing being baptized in the name of Jesus is the same or equal to being immersed into Christ which you also say is being filled with the HS. I want you to watch as your view come crashing down by the following evidence. Being baptized in the name of Jesus is saying that you are being baptized by his authority and you become his possession. But you should take careful note Ben that when someone was being baptized in the name of Jesus they were being baptized in water. The fact that someone is being baptized means that a person is admistring the baptism. Since the HS Baptism was to be done by Jesus himself this within itself proves that being baptized in the name of Jesus can not possible mean HS baptism instead it means water baptism. Now let me back this up with the word of God.

    Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

    Watch this Ben. Philip preached them the good news of Jesus and they were baptized. This baptism was in water and is exactly how it happend with Eunch in vrs 36-38. He belived and confessed Jesus as Lord and was water baptized. Now notice the next verse Ben.

    14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

    I want you to pay close attention Ben. I want you to notice that the people at Samaria had received he word of God and when they did they were water baptized just like those people on the day of Pentacost when Peter told them to repent and be baptized for them remmison of sin. Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added <I>unto them </I>about three thousand souls. These being ADDED to them which is being added to the church/one body of Christ was those that were being saved. 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. Now Ben stay with me here. Notice in vrs 15 and 16 that the HS HAD NOT FALLEN UPON THEM YET! WHY? Because they had only been baptized in the name of Jesus. Did you get that Ben? Being baptized in the name of Jesus is NOT the same thing a being filled with the HS like you are proclaiming. Being bapitzed in his name is clearly being baptized in water by Jesus authorty.&nbsp;I want you to notice that the only way people in the NT received the gift of the HS was by the laying on of hands by the apostles. The only people after the church began that received the HS directly from heaven was the apostles on the day of Pentacost and Cornnelius household that was for a sign to the Jews.

    Now lets tie this together with Mat 28:19 which you agree is water baptism.

    19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, <I>even </I>to the end of the age." Amen.

    First of all notice that they were to make disciples by teaching them and baptizing them in water just like Jesus has commanded. In the Greek term "in the name" signifies to come into the "possesssion" of another. It is not until one is baptized in water by the authority of the GodHead that the person enters into a special relationship with the GodHead. One does not enjoy this relationship prior to water baptism. Since both of the verse go together you can plainly see that water baptism is to be done until the end of the age. Which clearly shows that the one baptism in Eph 4:5 is water baptism and not HS baptism. Jesus also made it very clear that one must be water baptized in order to enter into the kingdom/church.

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and <I>of </I>the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    The one baptism that saves is water baptism and it is the theme throughout the NT. If there is an exception the bible clearly tells you that is talking about some other kind of baptism whether it be fire or HS. You like to try and say that 1Cor 12:13 is not water baptism.

    1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether <I>we be </I>Jews or Gentiles, whether <I>we be </I>bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    I have already showed you that not ALL were HS baptized or filled with the HS. However ALL were baptized and could be baptized with water. I have already made a long statement on this verse so if you want more info on it look at the previous post. Then we get to Rom 6: and Gal 3:27 and you want to say well it just doesnt say they were baptized in water. These passage say that the were baptized into Christ which is the same a being baptized in Christ or Baptized in his name which is the same as being baptized in water in the name of Jesus. Which makes more since Ben. You can be buried and immersed in water then raised up out of the water. With your view you are buried in the spirit and raised up out of the spirit. So would'nt this mean that you are being raised away from the spirit and would not have the spirit but you were buried with it but just didnt get to keep it. Stop denying the bibical truth Ben. Its obvious that these passages you keep holding onto are water baptism and not spirt baptism.&nbsp;Open up you mind to the clear truth Ben.

    Water Baptism is the only thing that makes sense. It was commanded by Jesus and the apostles. When people received the truth wheather it was a stangnet pond or midnight they were imeadiatly water baptized. People only received the HS through the laying on of hands by the apostles after they had been water baptized first. Finally Ben you can not and will not be able to get around my Greek arguement on Mark 16:16. Just grab any beginners Greek bood and you will see that verb&nbsp;aorist participles always have to happen before the main verb regardless if the main verb is past, present or future tense. Just as a quick review the words believe and baptized first of all are joined together with the word and which in Greek is Cordnating Conj. which means both words are equal with one another and are tied together. As I have said believe and baptized are verbs that are aorist participles and the main verb is will be saved. So these to equal words believe and baptized have to occure first before the main verb will be saved comes true.&nbsp; Ben this is impossible to get around my friend as there is not one single exception to this basic Greek rule. All the evidence is stacked up and weighs heavly agaisnt your view. I have tried hard in the past to see if there was one&nbsp;single valid arguement that would teach your faith alone view but it just doesnt exist. Instead the more I look I just keep finding more and more evidence that show without a doubt that one must be water baptized in order to be saved and not HS baptized. There is not one place in the bible that says HS baptism saves you and not one single vese that says faith ALONE saves you. I hope you will see the errors in your view and turn to God and be baptized in water in the name of Jesus.

    &nbsp;

    Cougan Collins
     
  12. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Your position is opinion too---why is your opinion more valid than his? If opinion “A” aligns closer to Scripture than opinion “B”---is not “A” more credible?
    Very good---I have been struggling to get you to admit there is more than ONE baptism in the Bible---where the word “BAPTISM” appears, it is not necessarily speaking of waterbaptism…
    But I can’t quite get you to admit that in Acts 8:15 they had been waterbaptized before being saved, and in Acts 10:47 they had been saved before being waterbaptized---What is the only possible conclusion about this, Cougan? waterbaptismis SEPARATE FROM SALVATION! It can ACCOMANY salvation, but it can also PRECEED, or FOLLOW salvation!

    I think you will just skip over the point I just tried to make. Let’s think about that again, Cougan and TBIR---if waterbaptism was PART OF SALVATION, it could never be SEPARATE from salvation in the Bible---yet we have demonstrated where it PRECEEDS salvation, and we have demonstrated where it FOLLOWS salvation. Can you see the inescapable point?

    WATERBAPTISM is SEPARATE from SALVATION!

    No I didn’t say “being immersed into Christ is the same as being filled with the Holy Spirit”. Being immersed into Christ is the same as your old self dying, your new self being born anew. “BORN AGAIN”, guys. It is BELIEF that founds “born again”, it is BELIEF that also receives the Holy Spirit---the belief is the same, the events are not. Being filled with the Holy Spirit is also a conscious choice, see Eph5:18.

    We have already established that waterbaptism is separate from salvation---so we can build on that in Acts 2:38, correctly understanding that it is NOT the water that saves them, but the NAME OF JESUS CHRIST. Waterbaptism is symbolic of repentance---clearly stated in 1Pet3: “Corresponding to Noah, waterbaptism saves you as an appeal to God for a clear conscience. You see? The WATER is NOTHING---repentance, forgiveness THROUGH HIS NAME is EVERYTHING!

    Once more to drive the point home---“Waterbaptism saves you AS AN APPEAL TO GOD FOR A CLEAR CONSCIENCE”---IOW, REPENTANCE---the “dipping” is presented as our “repentance”, “for forgiveness of sins”, symbolic not effective---point made?
    I am paying close attention---I am on the edge of my seat---why are you not seeing that their salvation succeeded their being waterbaptized? In Acts 10 they HAD the Holy Spirit, but had NOT been waterbaptized (NOR HAD THEY RECEIVED LAYING-ON-OF-HANDS!). In Acts 8 they had been waterbaptized but had NOT YET the Holy Spirit. WATER and SALVATION are SEPARATE ---do you finally admit that? (you can’t DENY it…)

    How many times must we revisit this passage before you correctly understand it? Ah, but patience is a virtue---so I shall be patient. But please concentrate this time: ;)

    3 “Truly I say to you, unless one is BORN AGAIN he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
    4 Nicodemus said, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born, can he?”
    5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water AND the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
    6 THAT WHICH IS BORN OF FLESH IS FLESH, that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    We have one subject here, “BORN AGAIN”. There are two descriptions here---“BORN-AGAIN”, is described not of flesh but it is described as of the Spirit. Only two descriptions---stated TWICE, first in verse 5, then again in verse 6. But YOU want to believe that verse 5 is DIFFERENT from verse 6---you want a THIRD DESCRIPTOR inserted here!

    1. Born of flesh (not)
    2. Born of water (is)
    3. Born of Spirit (is)

    BUT there are not 3 descriptors here, only two:

    1. Born of flesh/water (not)
    2. Born of Spirit/spirit (is)

    There is no way to twist “WATER” to mean “BAPTISM”---the SUBJECT is “BORN AGAIN”---Jesus clearly describes it as “NOT of flesh BUT of Spirit”. Unless one is BORN AGAIN (which means BORN TWICE, physical and Spirit), he cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven. Unless one is born of WATER (physical) AND of the Spirit (spiritual) he cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven.

    “BORN AGAIN” is the subject, not waterbaptism. “WATER” here, is “HUDOR---water-as-the-fundamental-element, FLESH. (If Jesus had meant to insert a “DIPPING CLAUSE”, it would have been a SECOND SUBJECT---and there is only one subject. Agreed?)

    It IS spelled out---we are united with Christ in likeness of His death (Rm6:5)---this is the BORN AGAIN, which has nothing to do with water. The old dies, the new is born---we are immersed into Christ…

    I finally got you to admit that not every time it says BAPTISM does it mean WATER---please transfer that to “IN CHRIST”---it means, “in Christ”, not “in water”. With me?
    You just condemned James Montgomery for his “opinion”, yet here you assert YOUR “opinion”…
    We have established that salvation occurs separately from waterbaptism---so, what makes SENSE, what is undeniable BIBLICAL TRUTH, is that the “immersion into CHRIST”, the “BORN AGAIN”, is the “one baptism”---which has nothing to do with water.

    If you disagree that we have established “salvation is separate from waterbaptism”, then please deal with Acts 8 and Acts 10.

    :)
     
  13. reeann

    reeann Trust and Obey

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    I don't think Baptism is necessary for salvation, but its certainly necessary for obedience. I don't think it should be discourage in the least. I think if anyone has repented and accepted Christ, they need to be shown scripture and prayed with to show they need to follow in obedience and be baptised. Jesus showed us, we need to do it. But it is not necessary for salvation. Jesus' blood secured that.
     
  14. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson I Like Traffic Lights

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    To Cougan:

    Regarding Mark 16:16: The passage you refer to is found not found in the best manuscripts, and theologians and scholars alike agree that Mark 16: 9 to the end was a later addition.

    Oh, and take it from an old Greek guy... Word order doesn't mean that much.

    If Baptism was so important, why is it not found in the "Believe not and be ******" phrase? That is a very telling remark.

    Let's face it. Water baptism is an outward sign of obedience. Those who follow Christ receive spirit baptism. That is what saves us - not water baptism.
     
  15. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

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    Hmmm---that seems to mesh with the Greek sources that I've consulted.
    ( :wave: @ Scott!)

    Are we in agreement? THat "waterbaptism" is separate from "salvation"?

    :)
     
  16. Gabriel

    Gabriel I Once Was Lost, But Now Am Found

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    You two have been beating this horse so long, it's fertilizer.&nbsp; I am totally convinced that neither of you is going to change the other person's mind.

    Oh by the way, Ben's right.&nbsp; Water baptism is an outward sign of an inward cleansing.&nbsp; If you were saved in the desert and shot dead right after, without having been baptized, you would reside with the Father.&nbsp; I don't know why this distresses you so.
     
  17. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

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    :wave: @ Gabe!
     
  18. Gabriel

    Gabriel I Once Was Lost, But Now Am Found

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    :wave: Right back at ya, Ben!
     
  19. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    Christian
    If baptism in necessary for obedience then it is necessary to be saved.

    Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
     
  20. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    766
    +6
    Christian
    I find it funny that you say you are a old Greek guy but your age on this board shows you to be 24. If you indeed are an Old Greek guy you should fully appreaciate the Greek arguement I made. If you know the basics of Greek grammer rules you will see clearly without a doubt with out execption that my Greek arguement is irrufutable. That is why Ben wont touch it and you by no means&nbsp;have touched top side&nbsp;or bottom side of my arguement. The latter part of that verse cannot take away from the true statement made that both belief and baptism must take place before one is saved. It is simply saying that if one does not belive they will be condemed. That is all that is necessary to say.

    Suppose we say: “He who eats and digests his food shall live, but he who eats not shall die.” Would it be sensible to say: “He who eats and digests his food shall live, but he who eats not, and does not digest, shall die.”? Can one digest what he does not eat? Is it even necessary to discuss baptism with one who is in a state of disbelief?

    Now Scott let me humbly comment on your NIV footnote or other on Mark 16: 9:20 not being part of the bible that it was supposedly added at a latter date. First&nbsp; I would like to say that if you read it without those verses it just does'nt make a whole lot of sense. Not to mention the fact that Greek writters do not end their writtings with the word Gar. Nor would it make sense to end the book of mark with the women there being afraid.

    There is overwheming evidence that these verses belong in the bible. First of the MAJORTY of Codex and cursive manuscripts contain these verses. If fact writtings from the early chruch fathers as they are called which were written around the 1 to 2 century has these verses in them. In fact Ireronius (however you spell his name) lived around 80 to 81AD and was a student of ploycarp who was a studend of the apostle John. Guess what Ireronius quotes Mark 16:19 in his writting. Who better to know that these verses belong there than this man Ireronius. We also have manuscripts that were written in other languages that predate the 4th century that contain these passages. There is both internal and external evidence that they belong there.

    Now let me show what the NIV and some others are calling the most reliable and oldest manuscripts. First off here is the 5 oldest manscripts that we have that are the UNCIAL.

    Codex Olive 4th century, B 4th century,&nbsp;A 5th century only 50 years after Olive and B, C 5th century, and D 6th century. Guess how many of these dont include the long ending of Mark. Just 2 of them Codex Olive and B. The other 3 contain the long ending. But they contend that the Olive and B are more accurate because they are the oldest ones. Dont forget that I have already pointed out that Mark 16:9-20 was in or quoted in documents that predate these 2 manuscripts which proves that Mark longer ending was not inserted at a latter date. Another very interesting thing is found in Codex B. Did you know that the copiest left the 3rd column blank and that there is enough room their for the latter part of Mark to be written in. Copiest had strict rules that they had to copy exactly what ever they were copying from. Apparently the copiest new that there was more verses to this chapter and felt it safer to leave a space for the missing verses. Instead of Codex B showing these verse are not suppose to be there it strongly indicates that they were suppose to be there.

    Did you know that neither Codex Olive or B contain John 21:25? I want to know why there is'nt a footnoot in some of these translations saying that this verse is not found in the best manuscripts since they consisder these to be the best manuscripts? Codex B is said to be one of the most complete books we have of the NT. But did you know that it stops at Heb 9:15 and does not contain any of the books through Revlation. I want to know where the foot note for that it is saying that these book are not contained in the best mauscripts. There are a lot of thories how these documents came about with the missing verses but one thing is true The majorty of around 5000 documents we have contain these verses and this without a shadow of a doubt proves that these verses should be there.

    Finally I want you to show me where the bible calls baptism a outward sign for an inward change. Don't be confused Scott I do not teach that the water is magic and that it is what washes away your sins. No, it is at the point of baptism by our obedience to the Faith that the removal of sin takes place. This is when the blood of Jesus washes away our sin. It is very similar to Naaman story. Naaman wanted to be cleansed of his lepersey and he had faith that Elisha could do this. Naaman was just wanting Elisha to come out to him and call on the name of the Lord and wave his hands over him and heal his leporsey. But Elisah tells him he must dip in the Jordan 7 times. Naamen rejects the idea at first because he wants to know why he could'nt do the same thing in some other cleaner river. But he humbles himself and is obedient and Goes and dips himself 7 times. It was'nt until he dipped the 7th time that he was cleansed of his leporsey. Again this is the theme throughout the entire bible. Man has faith in God. Man is obedient to the faith and does what is commanded of him. When he does that which is commanded then and only then is when the blessing comes. God gave Jerrico to Josha it was a gift from God. Josha had faith in God and was obedient and marched around it 7 times then blew the trumpets. It was'nt until he was obedient to the faith that gift was given. Same thing today God has given us the gift of salvation that is Gods part. Now man has faith in God and is obedient to the Faith and&nbsp;does those things which the bible says saves you. You repent, confess Jesus as you Lord and are water baptized. When you humble yourself and water baptized it is when you are added to the church 1Cor 12:13 and are united with Christ being buried with him and dieing with him by your faith in the operation of God. col 2:12-13 and Rom 6. Water baptism is a command and if we love Jesus we will obey his commands Jn 14:15. So to say water baptism is not part of salvation is to completly go agaist what the bible teaches.

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    To Ben I will deal more with you latter by you in no way established water baptism and salvation as seperate things. I have already showed you clearly that very point in my past post. Before I respond to you Ben I want to know. Are there still apostles today? Can someone be saved by being&nbsp;baptized in the name of Jesus? Can someone be saved by being baptized or filled with the HS? In Acts 22:16 was Paul being told to be baptised in water?

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