What about Baptism?

[cougan]

21st February 2003 at 09:33 PM Jase said this in Post #417

Cougan, i haven't been baptised but Jesus is my Saviour.

Not that i have anything against Baptism but i'm a Messianic Jew and the only Messianic synagogue i know of in my area doesn't perform Baptisms afaik.  Plus my entire family wouldn't let me go so i would get no support in doing it.  Does this mean i'm going to hell since i haven't and probably won't be Baptised in the near future?

And what about during the Tribulation? A multitude of people will be saved according to Revelation.  Do you think people cowering in caves trying not to be executed by the AC or killed by the horseman, earthquakes, asteroids etc are really gonna rush out to dunk themselves in water?  What if someone died on the way to church to get Baptised - would they be lost?

Im not for sure what a Messianic Jew is all I know is that those that are in the one body Eph 4:4-5 are called christians. Acts 11:26, 26:28 and 1peter 4:6. Following the word of God at times can cause division in a family. Who cares what your family thinks or anyone else for that matter. If you see that the word of God teaches that you must be water baptized out of obedince to be put into Christ and come in contact with his blood do it please God rather than man. Gal 1:10. act 4:19. You can't tell me that there is not any way that you can be water baptized. If you can't find anyone to assist you in your baptism do it yourself. Go to pond or fill up your bathtub nice a full and put your faith in the operation of God and know that when you go under the water that your sins are being washed away and that you are being united with Chirst and when you come up out of the water Rejoice because you have been united with christ in baptism and God has now added you to the one church which is Chirst body. You baptism has nothing to do with the person aiding you in and out of the water. Your baptism is between you and God and you faith in him. You just need to understand what it is you are doing and what is your putting your faith into when you are water baptized so that it will be done correctly. If you can find someone to help you in and out of the water than great if you cant find anyone the do it yourself. Again the person that lowers you into the water is only assisting. The water baptism must be done with the correct authorty and that authority is Jesus Christ. So yes if you do not get water baptized you will never enter into Christ where all the spiritual blessing are you will not have your sins washed away nor will you be added to the church as those in acts 2.

Now in regards to your rapture view this view just does not hold any water in the word of God. When Jesus returns he will only come back once this is his 2nd and final comming. When he comes back both the just and the unjust will be raised. This will be the judment day. Jesus will not reign on the earth for 1000 years and all that hype. We are told that we will meet him in air and be with him forever. He will burn up the earth and heaven at this second coming. NO where in the word does it even hint at him comming back a 3rd time or this 7 years of tribulation and so on. May I suggest you read one of my papers on the rapture and see if you still will belive in this man created story.

http://www.ardmoreweb.com/christ/rapture.html

 

[cougan]

Yesterday at 03:07 PM setfreebeliever said this in Post #419

The concept of "baptism" is another of those that through the ages the church has succeeded in causing confusion over. The word we use itself proves this point, since it has been transliterated, not translated from the Greek "baptizo".

If we actually translate this Greek word, we find that it literally means:

to cover over completely, saturate, immerse

and of course the word itself has nothing to do with water, so the context must prove water is involved in order to consider this concept as meaning anything to do with water.

Most verses concerning "baptism" (sic) have nothing to do with water, such as Matthew 28, which should read as follows:

18 And Yahshua came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in Shamayin and on Earth.

19 Go therefore and make talmudim of all the nations, immersing them in the authority and the teachings of the Father and of the Son and of the Sacred Breath,

20 Teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the end of the age." So may it always be. 

---- from The Writings of the Prophets and Apsotles, the Scriptures of the People of the Living Way

The above passage, when rendered without religious bias and dogma, shows that water never entered into this command to preach Yahshua's message to the world. The church added that concept much later.[/size]

Don't get me wrong - we are to immerse in water after our relationship to the Father is restored through Yahshua's sacrifice. But until then, water immersion has no meaning and/or effect upon anyone, other than to make one wet.

And for those who play at churchianity, their having been dunked in a tank of water does nothing for them if they have not made a sincere alteration of their nature through repentance.[/font]

What kind of translation is that? Ok really quick using your rendition. First you will see that they were to immerse them in the authority and teachings of .... How did they do this and when did they do this? Acts 2:38 they taught them to repent and baptized for the remmission of sin. Now they were taught about Jesus before this verse and they wanted to know what the need to do. Now if you are saying that being immersed has something to do with just the the teaching then they would have already been immersed at this point. So the immersion in acts 2:38 would have to be something other than being immersed in the word instead it was being immersed in water. We know it wasnt immersion in the HS because that came after the fact of this immersion which brought about the forgivness of sin. Then one can conclude that it is water baptism that washes away ones sins. It is water baptism that must be done by the authorty of Christ that brings about the remission of sin. It is water baptism in vrs 41 that added 3000 souls to the church. In vrs 47 it was those that were water baptized that were being added to the church by God that were being saved at the point of water baptism.

In acts 8. Philip only baptized Samarai and the enuch in water in the name of (authority) of Jesus christ. They did not recieve the HS until the Apostles laid hands on them. vrs 17. Again the were water baptized in the name of Jesus just like in acts 2:38 for the remission of sin.

 


 

 

[Ben johnson]

Very good post, setfreebeliever. Because "immersion-in-the-Spirit" has nothing to do with water, I fail to understand the insistence on "immersion-in-Christ" be by water. Both are part of salvation, and only belief saves. (Likewise, only unbelief condemns.

Now in regards to your rapture view this view just does not hold any water in the word of God. When Jesus returns he will only come back once this is his 2nd and final comming.

Oooohhh---Cougan and I agree? Kewl!

When he comes back both the just and the unjust will be raised. This will be the judment day. Jesus will not reign on the earth for 1000 years and all that hype. We are told that we will meet him in air and be with him forever. He will burn up the earth and heaven at this second coming. NO where in the word does it even hint at him comming back a 3rd time or this 7 years of tribulation and so on. May I suggest you read one of my papers on the rapture and see if you still will belive in this man created story.

Eyyap---spoke too soon.

"...And they (the just) came to life and reigned with Him for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life unti the thousand years were complete. This is the FIRST RESURRECTION. Bessed and hoy is he who has a part in the First Resurrection---over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. And when the thousand years are completed ...the dead, the great and small, standing before the Throne, and books were opened; and another one was opened, which is the book of life---and the dead were judged from the things written in the books..."

This clearly says "the righteous are raised, and then the unrighteous are raised a thousand years later". I don't see how this is open to interpretation.