[[QUOTE:]Originally posted by Ben johnson
"There was a man named Cornelius ...a devout man who feared God with all his household." You really contend that this household did not believe? They most certainly did. In John 6, that speaks of a PEOPLE, one people that "will be raised up by Jesus". Who are they? Those who BELIEVE, those who God GIVES TO JESUS. Do you understand the context of John 6? The Jews were saying, "Is this not Jesus, whose mother and father we know?" (Isn't this the little boy WE WATCHED GROW UP? Who does He think He is?!?!) Jesus is affirming His DEITY. Because Jesus is GOD, those who sincerely come to GOD, and BELIEVE, GOD GIVES TO JESUS. See John14---Jesus is the MESSIAH; to believe in Jesus, is to believe in God; to believe in God is to believe in Jesus.
Cornelius and his family WERE BELIEVERS!
There is no instance in Scripture where the Holy Spirit indwells anyone before they believed.
It looks like Caiaphas was really a believer....She had "troubling dreams"---do you really contend this means she was FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT? Oh come now---do you think John was "FILLED" in the womb, in the same sense as an adult BELIEVER? This was a prophecy about John's life; John was a believer. Or will you contend that God predestines some people? (Which are we arguing here, "baptism" or "predestination"?)
The Holy Spirit is ALWAYS conditioned upon our CONSCIOUS BELIEF. Even the supposed "predestination passages", like Eph1; verse 13 says, "HAVING BELIEVED, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise." but the belief came first
Matt28:19: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." Doesn't say it is for salvation.
"There was a man named Cornelius ...a devout man who feared God with all his household." You really contend that this household did not believe? They most certainly did. In John 6, that speaks of a PEOPLE, one people that "will be raised up by Jesus". Who are they? Those who BELIEVE, those who God GIVES TO JESUS. Do you understand the context of John 6? The Jews were saying, "Is this not Jesus, whose mother and father we know?" (Isn't this the little boy WE WATCHED GROW UP? Who does He think He is?!?!) Jesus is affirming His DEITY. Because Jesus is GOD, those who sincerely come to GOD, and BELIEVE, GOD GIVES TO JESUS. See John14---Jesus is the MESSIAH; to believe in Jesus, is to believe in God; to believe in God is to believe in Jesus.
Cornelius and his family WERE BELIEVERS!
There is no instance in Scripture where the Holy Spirit indwells anyone before they believed.
It looks like Caiaphas was really a believer....She had "troubling dreams"---do you really contend this means she was FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT? Oh come now---do you think John was "FILLED" in the womb, in the same sense as an adult BELIEVER? This was a prophecy about John's life; John was a believer. Or will you contend that God predestines some people? (Which are we arguing here, "baptism" or "predestination"?)
The Holy Spirit is ALWAYS conditioned upon our CONSCIOUS BELIEF. Even the supposed "predestination passages", like Eph1; verse 13 says, "HAVING BELIEVED, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise." but the belief came first
Matt28:19: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." Doesn't say it is for salvation.
[Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized is saved; he who does not believe is condemned." Doesn't say it is for salvation. Simply states a fact, and then gives the ONLY disqualification---unbelief---where is the verse that SAYS undipping is a SECOND disqualification?.] ]]
[Salvation is in the "shall be saved"!]
[[quote:][Acts 2:38 "Repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." It is the NAME of JESUS that forgives sins, not the water; 1Jn is clear on this: "If we CONFESS our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Your understanding of WATER-BAPTISM = forgiveness-of-sins = salvation, simply did not exist when the Word was written; only belief (and consequent repentance) is required for forgiveness of sins. Only His NAME is effective.]]
[Isaiah 28:13 "But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a litte:" When one study the word of God, he/she must know how God teaches us, you look for the words "for salvation" and you don't see it, so you asume it is'nt there. You like many others have taken the position that baptism in water is just an abstact thought of God's, and therefore not for salvation in your view.
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[[quote:][Acts 10:48 "And He ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ." Doesn't say it is for salvation---they were already saved and Spirit-filled before they hit the water.]]
[It was commanded, by Jesus and the apostle for "good luck" LOL! It is putting us into the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ which is our salvation through faith, and this is what you forget about because you misunderstand how faith work's. Romans 14:23 "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin". Baptism in water saves "IF" it is done through (FAITH)! Col.2:12 "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the FAITH of the OPERATION OF GOD, who hath raised him from the dead."
]
[[quote:][Acts 22:16 "...Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name." Does the WATER cleanse their sins? Or does calling on His NAME cleanse their sins? If you answer WATER, then you contradict 1Jn1:9.]]
[THROUGH FAITH IT DOSE!
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[[QUOTE:][I would really like to hear YOUR aswer to this---for Jesus was SINLESS! If water-baptism was for the remission of sins to salvation, why WAS Jesus baptized? He was SINLESS, He NEEDED no salvation...
Already answered it, post #107.]]]
[Jesus was our example, and he took all of our sins even at this point, on himself and showed us how we can have our sins washed away through water baptism. You are right, He himself had no sins of his own, but took our sins into the watery grave as an example for us to follow. He could not fulfill his mission without first showing us where salvation was, and that was doing the will of the Father. Notice, he didn't do any work for or in the kingdom without first being bapized in water. What a great example!
]
[[quote:]Now answer one for me---was PAUL inspired of God? Can we believe what Paul said? Did Paul have the same understanding as did the Apostles about the Gospel? (I'm presuming your answer to these 3 is "YES"). So now answer, why, if water-baptism is part of salvation, why did Paul write:
[quote:]["If you confess Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvaiton." Rom10:9-10
If Paul understood WATER to be PART of salvation, then did not Paul SIN in OMITTING IT? Would Paul, if understanding "dipping=forgiveness=salvation", would Paul ever write those verses 9-10 WITHOUT MENTIONING WATER? We must contend with what Scripture SAYS, not what it is SAID to INFER.]]
[First of all, you missed it in Rom. 6:3-7, then you stop reading at verse 10, when you should have read down to verse 21.
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[quote:]:[You say "you can't just cite one or two verses". Fine---then cite all the verses that speak of salvation---and tell me where is the water?
"...that whosoever BELIEVES may not perish but have eternal life."
"This is the will of God, that whoever beholds the Son and believes in Him may have eternal life."
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believed in His name."
"Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; but how shall they call on whom they have not believed? How shall they believe whom they have not heard? How will they hear without a preacher?"
I'm sorry, gentlemen; salvation is by belief. And belief causes the believer to be water-baptized.]]
[Precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little there a little: That's how we learn.]
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