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What about Baptism?

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by cougan, Oct 6, 2002.

  1. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    WHAT ABOUT BAPTISM?

         Today, it seems that people think Baptism is just an outward sign for an inward change and has nothing to do with salvation. In fact, most would say that all you have to do is believe that Jesus is the Son of God and say the sinner's prayer. However, most people would agree that you must be in Christ and have your sins forgiven to be saved. How do you get into Christ? The Bible says Baptism puts us into Christ (Rom 6:3; Gal 3:27) and its how we get into the 1 body (1Co 12:13; Eph 4:4), which is Christ body/church (Col 1:24). It is at this point when God adds us to the church (Acts 2:47). We want to be in that 1 body/church, because Jesus is the savior of that body. (Eph 5:23)
    When are your sins forgiven? We can find the answer by examining what Ananais tells Paul in Acts 22:16 "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."  Even though Paul believed that Jesus was Lord and had been praying and fasting for 3 days, his sins were not washed away until he was baptized. (Acts 2:38;Rom 6:6). There's nothing magical about the water and it's not a work of man. Instead, its your obedience of faith in the operation of God that you know that you are being united together with Christ in his death, having your sins washed away, being raised a new creature, and being added to the body/church of Christ. (Col 2:12-13; Rom 6:3-8). Have you obeyed the plan of salvation? (Rom 6:16-18; Jn 14:15) Let's take a logical approach now. The Bible says the following things save you: the word, (Js 1:21) grace, (Eph 2:4-5) hope, (Rom 8:24) belief, (Jn 3:16) confession, (Rom 10:9-10) repentance, and baptism. (1Pe 3:21; Acts 2:38; Mk 16:16) Since all of these things save you, is it not logical that it takes all of them working together to save you? Logic would dictate that you are not saved by any of these by themselves, but that they are all necessary in order to be saved. Have you ever wondered why in the NT people were in such a hurry to be baptized when they heard the word of God if Baptism isn't part of salvation? I hope and pray that you will be like the people at Berea and study what I have presented to you to see if it is so. (Acts 17:11) I have proclaimed this message because I love you and do not want you to be found outside the body of Christ. If you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, why not repent and confess him as Lord and be baptized into Christ having your sins washed away. Once you get into the body you become a servant of righteousness and we are told to be faithful unto death. (Rev 2:10)

    Now maybe with a little bit of luck the thread will not get shut down before you get time to respond this post I have written. Nothing I have written here is intended to offend anyone or discourage you. Please note this is my opinion on what the bible teaches. I just ask you study it out and see if it is true or not. If you don't agree with it thats fine by me. If you would like to discuss this and show me using BOOK CHAPTER VERSE backing up your opinion I would welcome your comments. Well here goes nothing.
     
     
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  2. I can eat 50 eggs

    I can eat 50 eggs what we have here is a failure to communicate

    +16
    Christian
    They would argue that the baptism that get's you into Christ, is spiritual baptism, when you recieve the Holy Spirit.  Not a physical baptism.
     
  3. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Hey man! :wave:   I'm not sure I understand what you're asking or even if you are asking something.  Are you asking if baptism saves us?

    God bless
     
  4. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    Did you read the post? I am stateing my opinion on baptism. I just wanted comments made if you agree or disagree with what I have presented and please if you disagree give verses to back up your claim. You could say the question is What about Baptism? necessary or uncessary?
     
  5. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    Ben I tried to PM you but your box is full. You need to delete some of your old messages. Thanks for the post. There has been way to many threads being closed down here lately that have'nt broke any rules. I just saw a guy on TV eat like 90 eggs at once and it just about killed him. He had to be rushed to the Hospital.
     
  6. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    No, I think it is BELIEF that puts us into Christ.

    Rom6:4 says, "we have been buried with Him through immersion into death", meaning that our old selves DIED. "...in order that as Christ was raised from the dead, so too shall WE walk in newness of life!" Here then is a beautiful description of being BORN AGAIN!

    There are SEVERAL "baptisms", or "immersions" mentioned in Scripture, I understand Rom6 to mean, "immersion-into-CHRIST". (Same with Gal3:27)

    If it was WATER BAPTISM that actually puts us INTO CHRIST, why do passages like, "If you BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART that God raised Him from the dead, and confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, YOU WILL BE SAVED"; and, "But as many as RECEIVE JESUS, to THEM He gave the right to children of God, even to those who believe in His name"; and, "For God so love the World, ...that whosoever BELIEVES should not perish but have eternal life"; and, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life..."; and, "This is the WILL (thelema-desire) of God, that EVERYONE who beholds the Son and believes in Him may have eternal life, and I will raise him up the last day"-----why do ALL THESE VERSES, and so many others just like them conspicuously NOT include the idea, of "WATER-BAPTISM"? Tell me the truth---if the writers had believed that "WB" was PART of salvation, do you really think they would have IGNORED it? Mark 16 says, "He who does NOT believe is condemned"---why does it not say, "he who does not believe AND IS NOT DIPPED is condemned"?
    Rm10:9, Jn1:12, Jn3:16, Jn3:36, Jn6:40

    Again, I think our being IN CHRIST, is through belief---not water.

    There still is that passage in Acts 10:44-48, where they BELIEVED, they had been BAPTIZED/IMMERSED into Christ, were BAPTIZED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT, but they had not yet been water-baptized!

    In the same consideration, 1Co 12:13; Eph 4:4 are not referencing water either---but, rather, "we are IMMERSED BY THE SPIRIT into one body" (immersed by the Spirit? And not by water? Yup!), and "one Lord, one faith, one baptism"---it is the immersion into Christ---which occurs through BELIEF, not through WATER...

    Show me a verse, one verse, that says, "He who is not water-baptized is not saved". And if you cannot, please tell me if it is logical to believe that something so CRITICAL to salvation (as those who equate "dipping" to "salvation"), was overlooked by all? Does that make sense?

    It seems, Scripturally, that salvation is BY BELIEF---and the BELIEVER, then wants to be water-baptized. Dipping is the consequence, not the cause.

    ...part of "HAVING-BEEN-SAVED", rather than "part of salvation"...

    :)
     
  7. sola fide

    sola fide neo-Puritan

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    Calvinist
    I would say baptism is necessary for the believer...but it is definitely not part of our salvation.
    It is a sign of the covenant of God...much like circumcision was in the old testament. Circumcision did not save people in the old covenant, but it was God's sign towards man.
    Much in the same manner, baptism is God's sign of the new covenant. I think when dealing with baptism and salvation, we need to realize that baptism is not man's sign toward God, but it is God's sign toward man. Baptism does not merit anything with us. It is something God has given us as a gift for sanctification, much as is the Lord's Supper.
    Neither merit or aid in salvation, but they do help in the sanctification process.
    If we realize that baptism is the sign of the new covenant, then it sheds much light on the subject. In the abrahamic covenant, circumcision was the SIGN of the covenant (seek Gen. 17). It was not the covenant itself, but it was a sign of the covenant.
    In like manner in the new testament, Christ established His baptism as a sign of the new covenant. We are saved by the gospel. The good news that Christ came, died, and rose again so that we may live. Baptism is not Christ's gospel. It is a sign that follows that gospel, but it is not the gospel itself.
    We are saved by the merit of Christ alone. When baptism is made the focus of salvation, especially existentially, then the merit of Christ is deminished, and the merit of man is puffed up. Baptism is not about man...it is not about us becoming regenerate upon our physical baptism....it is about re-enacting what Christ did in the past, and what He is presently doing in and through us.
    It's about death, burial, and ressurection....it's about repentence. It's a sign that we are truly one of God's elect. Does it necessitate that election though? No it doesn't.
     
  8. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    United States
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    Single
    Yes.

    Necessary for obedience, not necessary for salvation.

    God bless
     
  9. paulewog

    paulewog Father of Insanity; Child of Music.

    +369
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    I'm agreed with the person above me, Mr. Reformationist himself.

    And I'll tack on my own little thoughts too - there are several kinds of baptism listed in the Bible. In 1st or 2nd Peter, Peter tells us about the baptism that saves us ... and then says "not the removal of filth from the body." i.e., NOT water baptism. I forget where the passage is, sorry, but it's in one of those two books - rather small books, easy to find, but my Bible is on the other side of the house :D

    "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." Errr... it doesn't say "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be baptized and thou shalt be saved."

    (Acts 16:31)
     
  10. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

    +603
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    Married
    I am moving this thread to the Spirituality Forum, because Staff has decided that members of this branch of CoC teach a different gospel, and they are not allowed to post in Christian Only areas of CF.
     
  11. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    So you agree that one must be baptized in order to be saved. When you are being phyical baptized in water it is also a spirtual baptism. When you are baptized you are not literly being buried with Christ or literly dieing with him or literly being crucified with him because it is spirtual in nature that is you know that these things are happeing because of your faith in the operation of God. Col 2:12 Just like old Namen remember he has leporsy and went to the prophet to be healed but he was told to dip himself 7 times in the Jordan. He did'nt like the idea at first because he wanted to dip himself in a clearer river. But finally he decided to have obedince of faith and he went and dipped 7 times in the dirty waters of Jordan. If he had stoped at 6 times he would of still had his leporsy. It wasnt until he went all the way with his obedince of faith going down that 7th time that he was cleansed of his leporsy. Was this because of the physcal dipping by itself that he was cured? Of course not it was his obeidence of faith doing that which he was told to do. You see this all through out the bible. Some one has faith then they act up on that faith then they get the reward or result of that faith. God does his part and man does his.

    We are told in many places the importantance of obedience. If you love the Lord you will obey. (Jn 14:15) Obedient will inherit heaven (Mat 7:21-23) Christ offers eternal life to those who obey him (Heb 5:8-9) It is how we know him (1Jn 2:3-4;17) It gives us the right to the tree of life (Rev 22:14) The christians were thanked for obeying the gospel (Rom 6:17) The apostle recieved Grace and their apostleship by their obidence of faith (rom 1:5) I agree with you that baptism is an act of obedience but, so is faith, repentence and confessing Jesus as Lord. So using your view we do not have to belive, repent, or confess Jesus as lord because that are all acts of obedience. What makes baptism any different than these other acts of obedience? The bible shows that they all save you. In fact 1Peter 3:21 list Baptism by itself as saving you with mentioning faith, repentance or confessing Jesus as Lord. That is why we must take the whole council of God and not make our case off of one verse. Jesus himself commanded his disciples to go Baptize people in Mat 28:19. That is they would do the baptizing. This means that they would phyically be doing it because the HS baptism is not somthing a man could do since it comes from heaven. Jesus also told that unless we are born of water and spirit we cannot enter the kingdom/church in Jn 3:5. So brother I want to do that which has been commanded by Jesus himself because I love the Lord.

    I will respond to the other post latter. So don't think I have skipped past your comments.

    Peace to all.
     
  12. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    Thanks Auntie. I don't care where the thread is located as long as we actually get to discuss our view points here. I find it interesting that the staff would accuse me of preaching another Gospel just because my view differs from them. I wonder if the staff will start sperateing all the differing Christians in here when there view differrs from the staff acussing them of preaching another Gospel. Oh well, I love everyone here and appreaciate everyones opinions and thoughts. Just because someone accuses you of something doesnt make it true unless you yourself belive it also.

    God Bless everyone.

    Cougan

     
     
  13. goodnewsinc

    goodnewsinc Senior Member Supporter

    +91
    Christian
    "Now You are Clean Through the Word I Have Spoken"

    Part of the purification laws required that when one committed a trespass and made restitution by sacrifice, the final step of the process was to immerse the body in water. In this way one's trespass was cleansed. In Jesus' day the purification law made a transition and was called "baptism". John the Baptist was great at this. Water is always used for cleaning purposes. Everything God gave Moses in the priesthood he established was according to the Heavenly "pattern". Someone said, "Jesus did not baptize, but his disciples did" it. Since that Word, "baptism", is spiritual, always look for a spiritual objective. Did Jesus baptize? Did he actually wash sins away with a spoken Word? Let's take a "spiritual" look!

    Isaiah 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

    To baptize and to cleanse or purify, WATER IS REQUIRED

    John 4:10. Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. 11. The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? 12. Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? 13. Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14. But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

    John 7:38. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    Revelation 1:13. And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15. And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

    NOW….. how did Jesus "baptize"? He did not do it "naturally" like John the Baptist, the disciples, and the way churches do it today. The baptism of Jesus is totally "SPIRITUAL", not with natural water, but by the Words of his mouth, indeed "spiritual water". He does it with a Word!

    Luke 7:44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head. 45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet. 46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment. 47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. 48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. 49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? 50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

    She was baptized spiritually right on the spot via the Word Jesus spoke! Now here this about your father's style of baptizing:

    Acts 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven. 28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

    In the GOOD NEWS we proclaim your Father's style of baptism with a WORD, and we find it to be a great honor to proclaim these Words to humanity:

    Isaiah 40:1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. 2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins.

    Here is what Father said about Israel despite the provocations and temptations they did against Him and Moses in the wilderness:

    Numbers 23:18. And he took up his parable, and said, Rise up, Balak, and hear; hearken unto me, thou son of Zippor: 19. God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? 20. Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it. 21. He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the Lord his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them.

    Now to shock you one more time! Before the Father YOU STAND SPOTLESS… quiet as it is kept! I know the "by your works" crowd and the "by your faith" fans will not like this. However, it is "by His Word"! Can you say, "Amen"?! See http://www.goodnewsinc.net/YouStandSpotless.htm Living waters flow out of His mouth too, you know! Hopefully this word is not so "strange" after all! But it may be too "spiritual" for the carnal and natural mind to understand!

    GOOD NEWS, Inc. :pink: :wave: :clap:
     
  14. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

    +412
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    Single
    Well cougan, unlike my counterparts that are posting in this thread, I believe obedience to be a mark of salvation, not a means of obtaining it.  I believe that the obedient, symbolic act of public proclamation of discipleship to Christ is a result of our already being saved.  Please, before anyone attacks, take note that I said, "obedient, symbolic act..."  Just being dunked in water doesn't mean someone is already saved.  However, if that proclamation is spawned from a motive to be obedient to God's Word, then it is righteous.  Only those who are, or who have been made, righteous can do something righteous.  Therefore, to perform the righteous act of obedience one must already have been made righteous, i.e., saved/regenerated.

    God bless

     
     
  15. There are some things that you left out in Acts 16:31, 1st the jailer knew nothing about Jesus Christ, so the first question would be who is this Jesus?

    2nd Paul and Silas spake unto him and his household the word of the Lord, what did they say?  You would find the answer in vs.33. 
     
  16. You have posted some good info here, but you miss the point and you make it very complicated.  What we must understand is that what God gave us is very simple to understand, and one would need help to miss it.  It's all in Acts 2 the beginning of the church which Christ purchase with his own blood.  Peter preached to the Jews on the day of Pentecost, and he showed them that they had killed the Son of God, but God raised him from the dead, and that Peter and the other apostles were witnesses to his resurrection, and Jesus is sitting on the right hand of God at that very moment.  And when they heard what Peter had preached they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, Men and bretheren, What Shall We Do?  This is the question that all men must come to gripps with, and we must come to gripps with the answer that Peter gave, Acts 2:38 "THEN PETER SAID UNTO THEM, REPENT, AND BE BAPTIZED EVER ONE OF YOU IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, AND YE SHALL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT."  Now we know some teach that these were saved before Peter had said this, but that can't be true.    Three thousand were baptized into Christ on that same day vs. 41.  Now Peter had the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and whatsoever he bond on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever he loose on earth shall be loose in heaven.  Matt.16:19 Peter received that promise from the Lord himself, and weather we like it or not, we MUST OBEY THE SAME THING THESE MEN OBEYED.

    Note this, every time you and I read this passage, it will say the same thing, not matter what we think about it, if you close your bible for the next one thundred years then open it up again to the same passage, it will still say the same thing.

    So who's changing the meaning of this passage?  Is it God or Man? 

    That same Peter tells us in 2 Peter 1:20-21 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any PRIVATE INTERPRETATION.

    21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:  but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

    So "IF" we want to know how to be saved let God's word teach us from the time the church started until now.  And let us do it the way the first century church done it.

    Now go back and read Acts 2:38 and see if it changed!
     
  17. TOFT

    TOFT New Member

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    +0
    Amen Cougan and Bible Is Right. I completely agree, Baptism is something for a LOST person, not a SAVED person. How else can we get into Christ? And are we saved OUT of Christ?

    Through HIM,
    TOFT
     
  18. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +0
    Nice post cougan! However, I would like to add that apostle Paul was ADDED to the ONE and ONLY church during his time. And members of that church were called "churches of Christ" by apistle Paul (Rom. 16:16).

    The situation today is, however, very much different.  The Catholic Church hs many denominations or sects and the Protestant Churches have as many as 20,000 denominations or sects, not counting the JWs and the Mormons.

    The question is, to which of these churches should one be BAPTIZED and ADDED?

    Ed


     
     
  19. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    766
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    Christian


    Thanks for the input Ben. When you look at Rom 6 pay attention to the imagary. In vrs Rom 6:4;Col 2:12 it says that we are BURIED with him. It also says we are RAISED with him. Do you see what I mean here. Just like all those others that were baptized in the name of Jesus in water were buried with Christ. They were dipped down into that watery grave where they died with Christ, where they were freed from their sins. Then they were raised up out of the water being raised an new creature. Ben it is our faith working with our baptism that puts us into Christ. The water is just water but our faith in the working of God is what makes this physcal symbolic imerrison in water put us into Christ. No where will you find a verse that says FAITH ALONE makes you saved. In fact the demons even belive in God James 2:19 but I don't think you would say they are saved. Faith then obedince then the blessing, this is the theme through out the bible. I could use countless examples of this. I will just use one to show what I mean. Noah belived in God. Noah had obedience and built the ark. When the flood came he received his blessing by being saved. You see this with Joshua, Abraham, Moses, an Namen to name a few. But you just want to erase the obedience part and skip right to the blessing. You will also notice many things are passed down through bibical history. One of those being water. Water has been used in many symbolic things. This will also answer the post by sola. The Jews would immerse themselves in water to make themselves physcal clean before they went into the temple. Peter clarifies for us in 1Peter 3:21 that our water baptism is not the removal of dirt from the body but a good conscience to God. So you see we are appealing to God for a good conscience; the genuinely good conscience cannot be enjoyed prior to this act of obedience. I also want you to see the comparison made here so you can see that this baptism is refereing to water baptism. In vrs 20 it says that Noahs family was saved by WATER. In the same likeness or true likeness (water) baptism saves us to. Just like the water of the flood trasported Noahs family into a new cleansed world the water of baptism moves us from the world into Christ.

    Real quickly in this 1Peter 3:21 it only mentions that baptism saves us. I can ask you the same question if Faith was so important why is'nt it mentioned here? The bible is written for us to take it at is whole. Sometimes when one word or pharse is used it represents the whole this is called synecdoche. None of the passages you used had repentence in them either but we know that we must repent in order to be saved. Lk 13:3,5

    Now you say that Mark 16:16 proves that baptism is not part of salvation. You seem to be confused Ben. Now correct me if I am wrong but I think I remember you saying that you must be baptised in the HS to be saved. Then you go to this passage and to try and say that it is belief only. I hope I am remembering right. If I am you are contridicting yourself unless for some strange reason you think baptism in this paticular passage refers to water baptism. I want you to clear this up for me ok Ben? I think this verse is very easy to understand. It simply says BELIVE AND BAPTISM SAVE YOU. Then you want to say well the writter here did'nt really mean it and takes it back by saying if you don't belive you will be condemed. I ask you Ben if you don't believe are you ever going to go to the next step and be baptized? This is all the writter had to say here. Now Ben I'm not even sure what your view is on the miarcelous but I want to know if you think that the HS baptism that you say you have, is the same HS baptism as the 1century? If not why not? If the one baptism in Eph 4:5 is HS baptism then we should all be able to do the following.

    Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

    18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

    19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

    20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with <I>them</I>, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

    Ben if you have this HS baptism just confirm it for me with a sign and will teach your view from the roof tops.


    &nbsp;
     
  20. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    Christian
    Ben you have heard my answer on this before. But, let me try again. Lets look at the verses you have metioned.

    Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.

    45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

    46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered,

    47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we <I>have?"</I>
    48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

    Now acts 11 is a good comentary of Acts 10. I also want to list these verses.

    Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

    16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

    17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as <I>he did </I>unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

    18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

    This was very special moment for us Gentiles. It was'nt until this time that it was made known that we the gentiles could be christians to. The outpouring of the HS had only occured&nbsp;to the apostles at the day of Pentacost and now it was being poured out on the Gentiles. Notice in 10:44 and 11:15 that we find out that Peter was just starting to speak the words that they needed to hear when the HS fell up on them. He had'nt had a chance to tell them everthing they needed to know. God wanted Peter and his companions to know that he accepted the Gentiles. What better way to do it than to poor out the HS on them directly from heaven just as it happened to the apostles on the day of Pentacost. You will notice that Peter remebered back to when the HS had been outpoured which was the fullfillment of John prophecy in 11:16. If HS Baptism was occuring all the time he could of just sited some other example that had happened recently, but instead he thought back all the way to the beginning at the day of Petacost because this was the only other time this occured. The Gentiles here only received the Holy Spirit in a like manner as the Apostles that is that it came directly from heaven and not by the laying on of hands. No where does it teach that the gentiles here were ever able to do what the apostles could do. The apostles could remit and retain sin. They could bind and loose. They could pass on the gift of the HS by the laying on of their hands. 11:18 shows us how the Jew were happy that the Gentiles had been granted to become christians.

    Now lets turn our attention to 10:47-48. If the Gentiles here were saved because the had the outpouring of the HS why in the name of logic is Peter wanting water to baptize them in? Pay attention Ben. Peter was so excited when he saw that the Gentiles were approved by God to be able to be saved just like the Jews, that the first thing that came to his mind was CAN ANYBODY FORBID WATER TO KEEP THESE GENTILES FROM BEING BAPTIZED SINCE THEY ARE NOW ACCEPTED BY GOD. Peter did'nt stop there did he in the next verse he COMMANDED them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. There is no way you can deny that this was water baptism that Peter commanded because they were already HS baptized. HS baptism was a limited thing and was fullfilled and completed with the House of Cornelus. So the one baptism Eph 4:5 that was left was the water baptism as was to be carried out through out time Mat28:19.

    1Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and <I>of </I>the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    The first thing I want to point out is the word ALL. Not everyone had the Holy Spirt as you can see in verses 1Cort12:29,30. This one spirit is the word of God or guidence there of. You see here in Jn 3:5 that we are to be born of WATER and of the Spirit. That is we need to be guided by the word of God to know what is we are doing when we are being baptized in water. Without the guidence of the HS through the word we would have no idea that we are born again in baptism. Notice the following verses that show the spirit being the word of God.

    2 Corinthians 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

    1 Peter 1:23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,

    John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and <I>they </I>are life.

    Philippians 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

    You ask me to&nbsp;show you one verse that says baptism doesnt save you. That is easy my friend. I have posted several of them. For istance 1Peter 3:21 says we are saved by baptism. Now I know what your thinking. But, let me ask you a question first. If I tell you to pull the cord on your parachutte when you jump and you will be saved wont the oppiste be true if you dont pull your cord? That is the same thing with this verse here. You have your yin and your yang. If you are baptized you are saved. It is also stateing that if you are not baptized you are not saved. Surely you will agree with this logic. Well I think I have answered all your question Ben and covered Sola to. I will continue working my way down the thread as time permits.

    God Bless you all.
     
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