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What about Baptism?

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by cougan, Oct 6, 2002.

  1. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    Ben you are just rehashing the same old arguements on this verse that have already tore to shreads with the truth. Once again you try and make an greek arguement and you simplely do not know the rules of the Greek. Just look it up in a Greek authority and you will see that an AORIST PARTICIPLE MUST TAKE PLACE BEFORE THE MAIN VERB. This is ALWAYS the case and there are no exceptions. I am not going to keep on staying on this merry-go-round you keep spinning. I have already explained in detail about these verse including your same rehash about the if you dont belive you will be condemened part. You know good and well that is all he had to say. What so hard for you to understand about it? If you belive and are baptized you are saved but if you dont belive you will be condemend. You know Ben you can be condemend if you dont repent Lk 13:3. If you dont obey the word of God you can be condemed as well. There are a lot of things that can condem you Ben.

    What in the world are you talking about. I did not blow my arguement I strengthened it. Are you willing to say that a person is saved before he enters by Christ?

    I want to know why you wont answer my question on water baptism on the rest of the verses I listed? Why do you keep only answering a few? I respond to all of your questions but you pick and choose mine. I want you to answer the rest of those verses I gave you beside the few you answered in this post. I will finish responding to the rest of your post tommorrow. I am to tired right now to go on. But, please feel free to provide the answers to the rest of those verses.
  2. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    Your "goof" was trying to take the second verse differently, when it is couched the same as the other---they believed, and then were baptized; identically, His sheep first CHOSE to enter, and THEN were saved. You were trying to assign some meaning that salvation preceded entering...

    I'm not willing to "split hairs" with you over the Greek---there are those who contend that Jesus DEMANDED a negative answer in Jn6:67, where the usage of "ME" expects an answer only of "NO"---yet in context Peter clearly responded as if a "YES" answer was POSSIBLE---and this possibility is furthered by JESUS' response: "But I chose all TWELVE of you, and one of you DID leave!" (This to answer one who believes in "Once Saved Always Saved"...)

    If you are correct on the Greek, then there are plenty of other verses that create CONTRADICTIONS. As I have shown you, a prime one is Acts 10---these were saved, by BELIEVING, RECEIVING the Holy Spirit, JUST AS THE APOSTLES DID!!!---and all of this was PRIOR to being water-baptized.

    I can show you where salvation is by belief; can you show me ANY verse that says "he who is not water-baptized will PERISH? Can you???

    It's in Luke 7:29-30 I made mention of this and you keep ignoring It. Why?  Look at the word "NOT" in this text.  Ben are you saying that you can reject the counsel of God and still be saved?

    The "NOT" in Mark 16:16b is the same as Luke 7:30, so when Jesus said "he that believeth NOT"  the word baptism is inferred, just like Luke 7:30 that person reject the counsel of God, and is therefore condemned.
  4. The blood is in the water by faith, John 19:34, 1John 5:6-9 read these and they will help you understand better.
  5. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    Luke 7:29 is about "John the Baptist"; now, John clearly said, "I baptize with water, but He who comes after me will baptize with the Spirit." Were those who were water-baptized, SAVED? (I realize this is a technical issue, for the "new covenant" had not yet been accomplished)

    But it seems to me that "baptism in the SPIRIT, by beleif & receiving Christ", is the REAL salvation, not the water...
    "The sword pierced His side, and blood and water issued forth." Uhmmm, pardon my confusion, how does this make a theological point? Seems more a consequence of His physical distress...

    1Jn5? In John3:5, "WATER" is FLESH; in that passage, Jesus said, "you must be born of water ("Hudor", water-as-the-fundamental-element, FLESH), AND the Spirit; and we know the BLOOD signifies the SACRIFICE Jesus made for us; so the three are in agreement. The Spirit, the flesh, and the blood.

    Did you notice that later in 1Jn5, it says: "He who HAS the Son has the life---I write this that you who believe in Him may KNOW you have eternal life"? Seems to me that salvation is BELIEF---either John FORGETS to mention "water-baptism", or it is IMPLIED, or it is not part of salvation. (And it's not, salvation is by belief, faith, through grace. Nowater...) ;)
    Sound theology must be contrained to what is WRITTEN, not what is inferred (unless the point is made elsewhere in Scripture, confirming the inference). And what Mark wrote (presumably), is "he who believes and is dipped, is saved; but he who does not believe is condemned"---the only condemnation is for UNBELIEF. This is all that is said, this must be the limit of theological discussion; we cannot inject opinion and say, "He REALLY meant..."

    And "rejecting the counsel of God" obviously equates to perdition; but what condemns is their HEART, not their DEEDS; or lack of a deed such as water-baptism...

    Speaking of ignoring things, it seems to me that Peter totally reversed your understanding of Acts 10:44-48; for Paul confirms they were saved by BELIEF, by receiving the Spirit IN JUST THE SAME WAY AS THE REST OF THE APOSTLES HAD! Refuting your contention that "they had a special dispensation"---they did not. They were saved under the New Covenant, just as Peter was, just as we are.

    And they were saved BEFORE they were water-baptized...


    Ben, if salvation is by belief only then no need's to repent of sins, because by your own admission one is saved at the point of belief, is this what you really believe?

    And if so, then repentence, confession of the name of Jesus Christ and baptism are all unnecessary for salvation, because one is saved at the point of belief.  You must take this position if you believe the a person is saved at the point of belief!

    Now if you don't take the above position, then you must admit that belief plus something else equals salvation and not the position of belief by itself.  So where do you stand?
  7. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    Yes, that is what I believe, what I understand from Scripture---salvation is by belief alone, by receiving the gift of God through our own faith. BUT---it is not any KIND of belief. It is only a certain kind of belief, QUALIFIED belief! For MERE belief (head-knowledge) amounts to NOTHING! (Jms2:19)

    Salvation is by belief---belief that causes:
    &#149repentance (Luke 13:3)
    &#149Humbled-as-a-child (Matt18:3-4)
    &#149DOING God's will (Matt7:21)
    &#149Good works (Matt7:15-20, Jms2:14---"That faith can NOT save him, CAN it!" Me Dunamai, can NOT, can it!)

    &#149born again (Jn3:5)---on which all the others are based!

    It is belief alone that saves us; quailfied belief, the belief that receives Jesus Christ (Jn1:12), that dies to the old and is born anew (Rom6,8; 2Cor5:17, Gal2:20). Belief that causes us to be righteous (Rom10:10), and yes, belief that causes us to be water baptized (Mark 16:16).

    THIS is why they were saved in Acts 10, BEFORE being water-baptized because salvation is by BELIEF ALONE! Belief that receives the salvic gift of grace, that RECEIVES CHRIST! Rom5:17

    Now, do you understand me better?

  8. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    EXCELLEN post, TBIR! You cut right to the heart of the matter!!!

  9. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    I just poped in here for just a second Ben. I want you to answer my questions about those other verses in my last post please. I need to know what you answer is. I hope that you will respond to them and I will finish commenting on that one post and if I have time I will talk about your latest posts.

  10. Ben, I notice that your favorite scripture is Acts 10:44-48, and I remember you saying that one must have more than one scripture to prove that a certain idea is true, with that said, We know that the out pouring of the Holy Spirit happened two times in Acts, once when the Spirit was poured out on the apostles and then on the household of Cornelius, the first time was to confirm the word of God, what was the second time for what?  And did this happen anywhere else in the book of Acts?

    If you cannot show where it happened other than those two places, you cannot use it as a proof text for salvation and disguard all the other text, that tell men to be baptized for the remission of sins.

    Baptism is a commandment from Jesus and the apostle Peter and it is for salvation.  Matt. 28:19; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38, 10:48, 22:16.

    Baptism in water is how one get's into Christ, this is why Peter commanded the household of Cornelius to do it, it was also in the same hour that Peter was preaching that he told them to be baptized.  This is where we come in contact with the blood of Jesus that washes away our sins. 1John 5:6-9, which you took way out of context, with replacing the word "water" for flesh.  I guest you would replace the word "water" for flesh in John 3:5 also.

    Like Coungan said, you overlook all the other passages on the subject of (water baptism), but I guarantee you this, you have been baptized in water already, right?  Why? 

    If John the immerser baptism was for the remission of sins then what was Jesus baptism in water for?

    Here's one last question on the subject of baptism if belief is all one needed to do.

    On the day of Pentecost why didn't Peter tell the people who ask, Men and bretheren What shall we do?  All you have to do is believe what I told you about Jesus Christ the Son of God?  If that all men have to do to be saved?  This is when the first sermon was preached after Jesus went back to heaven, so the first thing they would have to do is believe and that's all, but you know that's not what Peter told them. Why?

    Please answer the question above.
  11. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    Ben I want you to realize first of all that acts 11 is more chronlogical precise than acts 10. Notice the following verse.

    Acts 11:4 But Peter explained it to them in order from the beginning, saying:

    Peter starts from the beginging telling how things happened. Then we come to verse 14. Acts 11:14 'who will tell you words by which you and all
    your household will be saved.'
    Here the angel tells Cornelius that this man name Peter will tell them words by which his house hold will be saved. I want you to note these 2 points.

    1. This indicates that the centurions salvation is to come by means of the gospel, not as a result of some abstract outpouring of the spirit.
    2. Cornelius could not be saved prior to the culmination of Peters message about Christ, and the necessary conviction one must have regarding him.

    Next Peter says. 15 "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. The term "began" is of great significance here. It is derived from "archo". J.H. Thayer comments on the word: "...indicates that a thing was but just begun when it was interrupted by something else... Acts 11:15..."

    So you see Ben Cornelius house had not heard the words by which they must be saved. They had not yet heard about Christ death and resurection. The Holy Spirit fell on them before they had faith since they had not heard the word. Rom 10:17. If they were saved as you allege by the HS baptism then they were saved before they had faith. So with your view one could be saved without faith.

    In verse 16 Peter recalls back to the only other time the HS was poured out, the day of Pentacost. Remember how crowds came and the apostles spoke in the different languages the good new of Jesus Christ. This outpouring was the beginging of the church and the message at this time was for the Jews. Notice what those people did when they received the words by which they were to be saved. acts 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. These guys were baptized in water my friend. When the HS was poured out on the Gentiles in front of the Jews this was Gods way of saying they don't have to be like you and become cirumized they can be baptized into Christ for the remission of sins just like you Jews. This is why the Jews were so amazed about these Gentiles speaking in tongues was because it came directly from heaven with out the laying on of hands by the apostle. This also was the fullfillment of Joels prophecy of the spirit being poured out on all flesh which boils down to the Jews and the Gentiles. Now on to verse 17.

    ASV Acts 11:17 If then God gave unto them the like gift as
    he did also unto us, when we believed on the Lord Jesus
    Christ, who was I, that I could withstand God?

    NKJ Acts 11:17 "If therefore God gave them the same gift as
    He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who
    was I that I could withstand God?"

    First off the context this verse is found in demands that this is not saying that the Gentiles here had belived. This verse is saying that the Gentiles have received the same gift as the apostles did when the apostles belived on the Lord Jesus Christ. Now what is even more interesting in this verse is that Peter says "who was I that I could withstand God?" What did Peter do or allow so that he would not withstand God. It is very easy to see that he allowed, actually commanded them to be water baptized. So not to be water baptized is to withstand God. Why would anyone in the right mind say that someone does not have to be water baptized to be saved when it clearly shows here that you would be withstanding God? Ben, I hope you can see clearly that one must be water baptized to be saved and not HS baptized which is only mentioned 2 times in the bible.

    Thats funny you cant even show me one little verse that proves your point. Yet I can show several verses that says baptism saves you. Mark 16:16 and 1Peter 3:21. I already showed you one place where someone was filled with the HS before the believed and that was Cornelius household. Another one would be Jesus enemy that prophesied the high priest Caiaphas in John 11:49-52. Another possible one would be Pilates wife in Mat 27:19. John the baptized was filled with the HS even in the womb before he could belive. Luke 1:15.
  12. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    The following will shed much light on these verses.

    What is it to be born of the Spirit? Please remember that Christ speaks of only one birth, but mentions two elements. We have no difficulty in understanding that water is a clear reference to baptism as taught in the New Testament. But what is involved in being born of the Spirit? The Holy Spirit has revealed the Word of God (John 14:26; 16:13; 2 Pet. 1:20-21). We are begotten by that Word. "Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures" (James 1:18). Again, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth forever" (1 Pet. 1:23). Also, "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him" (1 John 5:1).

    Perry B. Cotham has well written:

    "Since there cannot be life in either the physical or spiritual realm without first a begetting, and since God is to all Christians their spiritual Father (Matt. 6:9; Rom. 1:7; 1 John 3:1-2), one is said to be begotten of God: `Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God'" (1 John 5:1, ASV; cf. 1 John 2:29; 4:7).*

    One is begotten of the Word of God ...

    *"If the reader turns to the King James Version of the Bible in these passages he will note that the word is translated born rather than begotten. In the Greek New Testament the word [@gennao] can refer to either the begetting or the bringing forth or to both. When the birth relates to the father, [@gennao] is properly rendered begotten; when the birth related to the mother, it is translated born; when the relationship of the child to both parents is referred to, it is translated born (cf. Matt. 1:2; 2:1). This is why the American Standard Version uses the word begotten in these passages."<8>

    Cotham includes an excellent chart in the tract quoted from above, comparing the likeness of three passages. Now let your fingers do the walking to John 3:5; Eph. 5:26; and Titus 3:5 and let the Bible do the talking:

    JOHN 3:5 EPH. 5:26 TITUS 3:5

    1. Born of water 2. Washing of water 3. Washing of regeneration

    1. Born of the Spirit 2. By the Word 3. Renewal of the Spirit

    1. Enter the Kingdom 2. Cleansed 3. Saved<9>

    Friends, a man would need at least two doctor's degrees in order to misunderstand that! When one studies carefully all Scripture references to the subject under discussion there can be no doubt that our Lord discussed the entrance into the church (kingdom) and that the new birth is baptism.

    Christ stated, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6). The reference to the Spirit (spirit) is spiritual, that is, New Testament baptism, which is "the operation of God" (Col. 2:12b). "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body" (1 Cor. 12:13a). Baptism, then, is an act that pertains not to the flesh, but to the spirit of man when one obeys the Holy Spirit's command to be baptized (Acts 2:38).

    13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body --

    I can quickly show that this verse is not talking about HS Baptism. First I want you to notice that is says ALL were baptized. If this were the case you would think that all of the saints a Corinth would have posses miracelous gifts like speaking in tongues since this is a normal manifestation of the HS baptism Acts 2:4, 10:45,46. But this was not the case as you clearly see in 1Cort 12:29-30. So we can easily rule out the immmersion here which was done to all was the HS. It is talking about water baptism in this passage. You are being baptized into the body by submiting yourself through your obedience by water baptism. You can see this from John 3:5 that the spirit and the water put you into the kingdom of God which is the same as the one body.

    I dont belive that every time the word baptism or baptized is used means water. I know the difference between HS baptism, fire baptism and water baptism. You keep forgeting Eph 4:5 that around 62 AD there was only 1 baptism that saves. HS baptism was a promise and not commanded. But water baptism was commanded and was to be obeyed. The one baptism which saves is the one that was commanded not the promise which Jesus made which was fulfilled on the day of Pentacost when the Apostles were baptized with the HS. You already said yourself that you can show me one single verse that says you are saved by being HS baptized, but I showed you verses that show you are saved by water baptism. You seem to think you are saved just like Cornelius household was in your view of these verses. I want to know how you know that you were filled with the HS? Did you speak in tongues like they did? Do you poses one single miracleous gift? Again, you would have to say that when Philip being filled with the HS in acts 8 preached the gosple to those people and when the belived he water baptized them you would have to say they were lost because they had not yet receive the HS. How much since does that make? If you would only seriously think about this. It was'nt until the apostles came and laid hands on them that they were able to get the HS. ONLY the apostles had this ability to impart the HS by the laying on of their hands. Remember how Simon tried to buy the abilty and how the apostles corrected him on the matter. We would still have to have the original apostles alive today to lay their hands on us so we could be saved. I still want you to answer my question on those remaining verses I gave you wheather or not you think they are water baptism or not.

  13. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    "There was a man named Cornelius ...a devout man who feared God with all his household." You really contend that this household did not believe? They most certainly did. In John 6, that speaks of a PEOPLE, one people that "will be raised up by Jesus". Who are they? Those who BELIEVE, those who God GIVES TO JESUS. Do you understand the context of John 6? The Jews were saying, "Is this not Jesus, whose mother and father we know?" (Isn't this the little boy WE WATCHED GROW UP? Who does He think He is?!?!) Jesus is affirming His DEITY. Because Jesus is GOD, those who sincerely come to GOD, and BELIEVE, GOD GIVES TO JESUS. See John14---Jesus is the MESSIAH; to believe in Jesus, is to believe in God; to believe in God is to believe in Jesus.

    Cornelius and his family WERE BELIEVERS!

    There is no instance in Scripture where the Holy Spirit indwells anyone before they believed.
    It looks like Caiaphas was really a believer....
    She had "troubling dreams"---do you really contend this means she was FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT?
    Oh come now---do you think John was "FILLED" in the womb, in the same sense as an adult BELIEVER? This was a prophecy about John's life; John was a believer. Or will you contend that God predestines some people? (Which are we arguing here, "baptism" or "predestination"?)

    The Holy Spirit is ALWAYS conditioned upon our CONSCIOUS BELIEF. Even the supposed "predestination passages", like Eph1; verse 13 says, "HAVING BELIEVED, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise." but the belief came first
    Matt28:19: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." Doesn't say it is for salvation.

    Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized is saved; he who does not believe is condemned." Doesn't say it is for salvation. Simply states a fact, and then gives the ONLY disqualification---unbelief---where is the verse that SAYS undipping is a SECOND disqualification?.

    Acts 2:38 "Repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." It is the NAME of JESUS that forgives sins, not the water; 1Jn is clear on this: "If we CONFESS our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Your understanding of WATER-BAPTISM = forgiveness-of-sins = salvation, simply did not exist when the Word was written; only belief (and consequent repentance) is required for forgiveness of sins. Only His NAME is effective.

    Acts 10:48 "And He ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ." Doesn't say it is for salvation---they were already saved and Spirit-filled before they hit the water.

    Acts 22:16 "...Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name." Does the WATER cleanse their sins? Or does calling on His NAME cleanse their sins? If you answer WATER, then you contradict 1Jn1:9.

    I would really like to hear YOUR aswer to this---for Jesus was SINLESS! If water-baptism was for the remission of sins to salvation, why WAS Jesus baptized? He was SINLESS, He NEEDED no salvation...
    Already answered it, post #107.

    Now answer one for me---was PAUL inspired of God? Can we believe what Paul said? Did Paul have the same understanding as did the Apostles about the Gospel? (I'm presuming your answer to these 3 is "YES"). So now answer, why, if water-baptism is part of salvation, why did Paul write:

    "If you confess Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvaiton." Rom10:9-10

    If Paul understood WATER to be PART of salvation, then did not Paul SIN in OMITTING IT? Would Paul, if understanding "dipping=forgiveness=salvation", would Paul ever write those verses 9-10 WITHOUT MENTIONING WATER? We must contend with what Scripture SAYS, not what it is SAID to INFER.

    You say "you can't just cite one or two verses". Fine---then cite all the verses that speak of salvation---and tell me where is the water?
    "...that whosoever BELIEVES may not perish but have eternal life."
    "This is the will of God, that whoever beholds the Son and believes in Him may have eternal life."
    "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believed in His name."
    "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; but how shall they call on whom they have not believed? How shall they believe whom they have not heard? How will they hear without a preacher?"

    I'm sorry, gentlemen; salvation is by belief. And belief causes the believer to be water-baptized.
  14. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    this is "errant teaching"; Corinth was PRIDING on "speaking in tongues", and Paul was trying to convey, "it's NOT THAT IMPORTANT". In 1Cor12, the use of the Greek "ME", expects a negative answer. "All do NOT speak in tongues, DO they!" In 1Cor14:20, it is nothing less than a REBUKE: Guys, GROW UP!

    Not everyone filled with the Spirit speaks in togues---it is the GIFT that the SPIRIT DECIDES is appropriate for you---for one, tongues, for another, teaching, and another faith (which differes from "saving-faith"), to another, prophesy (which is a greater gift).

    Can you quickly show me that Romans 6 is speaking of water-baptism, rather than simply saying, "IMMERSED into CHRIST---the old self DIES, the new is BORN through His RESURRECTION!" (see Gal2:20---"I have been CRUCIFIED with Christ, it is no longer I who live but He who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the One who loved me and gave Himself up for me...")???
  15. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    In fact why don't you show me one verse anywhere that says someone is saved by being baptized in the HS.

    I can't. But I can show you where they are saved by BELIEVING, which CAUSES them to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Can you show me ANYWHERE that the Spirit indwells one before he believes?

    That's funny you can't even show me one little verse that proves your point. Yet I can show several verses that says baptism saves you. Mark 16:16 and 1Peter 3:21.

    Proves my point? I never SAID that "one is saved by being baptized in the Holy Spirit"---why do you direct this towards me? I actually don't believe there is a specific "baptism of the Holy Spirit", per se'; the Holy Spirit is received when we believe; and we are commanded to "be filled with the Holy Spirit", as in "it's-a-choice". Eph5:18
    Now, John baptized for repentance (Acts 19:4). And the immersion into Jesus, carried the same water-baptism-symbol---repentance; if the WATER causes forgiveness of sins, then the direction is GOD-TOWARD-MAN; but in 1Pet3:21, water-baptism is "an appeal to God for a clear conscience"---this is undeniably REPENTANCE, man-towards-God. Forgiveness of sins is always predicated upon our repentance; as 1Jn9 says, all we need do is confess our sins to Him (repent), and He is faithful and just to forgive us.

    To say, "you can't depend on ONE VERSE", is silly---there is only one verse that I know of that boldly declares "the SPIRIT is GOD" (Peter's words in Acts 5:1-4); but it is enough. In Acts 10 & 11, REGARDLESS of whether Peter said "I had just begun to speak", the Scripture says THEY BELIEVED. (Peter seemed surprised that GENTILES were offered salvation too) "THerefore, if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ..." Do you really contend that the same gift was given to them WITHOUT THEIR BELIEF? The gift is always predicated upon belief ("for by grace are you saved through faith/belief")---they believed just as Peter's group did, THEY WERE SAVED TOO. These people were saved before being water baptized---there is no way you can deny it. First you say, "it was a SPECIAL DISPENSATION"; I showed you how Peter said "same gift as us also after believing in the Lord"; then you said the Spirit can come to UNSAVED, I challenged this to be found in Scripture, but it cannot. Now you say, "This is only ONE VERSE"; but I have given you MANY, it's just that the others have been "refuted" (in your mind, not in my esteem)---so I present THIS verse as "irrefutable"---which forces you to go back to the other verses you thought you had refuted before.

    I respond with patience, "destroying arguments" (2Cor10:5), and each refutation we present is met with weak argument. "They had SPECIAL DISPENSATION". "They were FILLED with the Spirit BEFORE THEY BELIEVED." "OH it's only ONE VERSE, you can't prove anything with ONE VERSE!" "It may not SAY that unbaptized is condemned, but it's IMPLIED!" Alas, we can only base our doctrine on what the word SAYS.

    The Bible says, salvation is by belief. Qualified belief. Belief/faith that comes from our own hearts, on hearing the word of God. Only belief saves us, belief that receives God's grace. Period. Saving-belief does good works, and is water-baptized.

    "Water-baptism now saves you, ...as an appeal to God for a clear conscience". Water-baptism is symbolic of our repentance---but only repentance is needed for forgiveness of sins. We were washed, sanctified, justified in the name of Jesus Christ---it was His NAME that washed/sanctified/justified us, not the WATER. Repentance often accompanies the water, but not necessarily; it is repentance/belief/receiving-Christ/born-again, that saves us---not water.

    "For all who call on the NAME of the LORD will be SAVED." It is HIS NAME that saves us, not water.

    Once again, show me the verse that says, "he who is not water baptized is not saved". There is no way such a critical part of salvation, if it were, would be missed by EVERY ONE OF THE WRITERS...
  16. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    You make it to easy Ben. You constantly contridict yourself then change your mind and then say it a different way. At least you finally say there was no way for you to get around Mark 16:16 from the english or the Greek. You say your not going to split hairs what a easy way out. Just ask anyone that knows the rules of grammer in sentence structure and they will tell you with out a doubt that verbs that are aorist participles must occur first before the main verb happens. The latter part of Mark 16:16 in no way or fasion changes truth of the first part like you would like it to.

    Then you say you are saved by FAITH ALONE. Then you expound on it saying not just any kind of faith but faith that would cause you to repent,confess and do the will of God. This concept is contridictory within itself. FAITH ALONE is exactly what is says FAITH ALONE. You however have put this weird twist to it but when it comes right down to it you belive that one must have obedient Faith. That is exactly what I proclaim. Obedient Faith means some sort of action on your part. When you are obedient then you get the blessing. You want someone to be qualified by Faith Alone but on the same hand want them to do the obedient things like repent, confess, and be water baptized. I have showed you time and time again that it takes all these things working together to save you by your obedience. Under your view a christian could have that kind of Faith that would be obedient but if they actually never do anything you would have to say they are still saved. You still dont stay true to your view. You have said that one is saved by grace through faith. Thats 2 things right there. You have also stated that one must repent. That makes 3. You also said one must be baptized/immersed in Chirst. That makes 4.&nbsp; See how contridictary you are. Lets not forget when you said that HS baptism doesnt happen to a person but that they receive it.&nbsp;How do they receive it?&nbsp;Then you also said the&nbsp;being&nbsp;immersed into Christ is the same as being filled with the HS. Can you show me one place in the bible&nbsp;when the HS indwelled someone without&nbsp;there&nbsp;being some sort of sign of his miracelous presense.

    I am still not sure of your answer on acts 2:38. Are you saying that they were baptized in the name of Jesus and that is it? Or are you saying they were baptized in water in the name of Jesus? Do you consisder being baptized in the name of Jesus equivalant to being immersed in to him like you are professing? Please answer these questions so I can understand where you are coming from.

    &nbsp;You seem to be a little confused about John the baptist baptism. First off it was'nt really his baptism because it came from God. It was really Gods baptism. Lk 1:77 John was preparing the way for Jesus. John baptism was also for the forgiveness of sin.

    Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
    Luke 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

    Let&nbsp; me answer your question real quick why Jesus was baptized even though he had no sin. The Bible makes it clear for us why he did it. He was being obedient and fullfilling all righteousness. If he had not been baptized even though he had no sin he would of been disobedient.

    Mat 3:13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him.14 And John <I>tried to </I>prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?"15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit <I>it to be so </I>now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him.

    Also consider the following verses.

    John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

    You see this baptism was also the point at which Jesus fullfilled the prophecy of&nbsp;Psalm 2:7 "I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me, 'You <I>are </I>My Son, Today I have begotten You. It was'nt until Jesus was baptized by his forruner that the HS descended on him and God proclaimed him being his son. Matthew 3:17 And suddenly a voice <I>came </I>from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

    This should more than answer your questions. You see the people that were coming to him were sinners and were being baptized for the forgiveness of sin. The water baptism we have today is by the name of Jesus that is it is by his authority. John baptism was for the remisson of sins but baptism in water by Jesus authority was not only for forgiveness of sin but it added you to his body and makes you a child of God. You seem to think to thing Jesus in Mat 28:19 just commanded them to water baptize but it was'nt for salvation. You also notice that it doesnt say that he told them to&nbsp; bapitize people for an outward sign for an inward change. You do see in that verse that they were to make diciples of all nations. HOW? by baptizing them in the name of the&nbsp; F, S and HS. Notice what Jesus said in Lk 24:47 "and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. It should be very clear that water baptism is part of salvation and is for the remmission of sins.

    It would be pointless for them to go around water baptizing people in the NT over and over again if all they needed was imersion into Christ by Faith alone. The promise of the HS baptism was only made to the apostles by Jesus in Lk 24:39. You can also see that it was only the 12 apostles that stood up and spoke they were the only ones that received the promise of the HS baptism. Cornelius household is the only exception and it was just to show that God would accept the Gentiles to be baptized for the remmission of sins now. One other think if water baptism is just some outward sign for an inward change there would not be a need for it to be done immediatly. It could be schedualed at a latter time so the family could witness this deadication. This is simply not the case is it Ben. You have the Eunch stoping on the side of the road in some pond of some sort so he could be baptized right then. You have the jailer and his family being baptized at midnight. Cornelius faimly was baptized right away. The men Paul came up on&nbsp;that had only been baptized in Johns baptism were immediatly baptized in the name of Jesus.

    You take the one exception in the Bible where someone got the HS then was water baptized and try to hang on to it with dear life. I can and already have showed you many passage that show people were water baptized first then they&nbsp;recieved the HS ONLY through the laying on the hands of the apostles. I asked if Apostles are still alive today, did you answer no. I asked you what miraceleous gift you have, nothing by silence.

    One last comment before I close. You say acts 22:16 that Paul was saved by calling on the name of the Lord. I have already showed you that calling on the name of the Lord invovles repentence and baptism. Rember in Acts 2 where I pointed that out. Peter told them to call on the name of the Lord and they would be saved but then they asked what must we do and Peter told them Repent and be baptized. So yes Paul was saved by calling on the name of the Lord since it involves repentence and baptism. Another point to be made AGAIN is the fact the Paul belived, confessed and repented but was still not saved until he was water baptized having his sins washed away. Again you were vague on your answer but it seem to imply that you agree that this baptism was by water also. Just look at all these verses that you are now having to admit are talking about water baptism but you do want to hold on to&nbsp;a few so you&nbsp;can continue to hold your view. I noticed you did'nt even try and touch my 1cor 12:13 comment I would'nt either since its the truth. Rom 6 and Gal 3:27 are clearly water baptism and you can see it in how it is described and used within the context. Tell me how you can buried by faith alone. When you bury something it is covered up just like when you are buried in the water grave of baptism. I sure hope some of this sinks in soon because I am not going to stay on this merry go round much longer.

  17. Azeotroper

    Azeotroper New Member

    Ben Johnson,

    You are much more persistent and patient than I. Just let them carry around their burdens that&nbsp;Christ has already said He would carry for us all.&nbsp; When I commit a sin, I confess it out of conviction and devotion to my savior.&nbsp; The CoC do it because they believe they will lose their salvation if they don't.&nbsp; Living in fear.&nbsp; I believe that love casts out fear, and enjoy the liberty and freedom that being saved by Christ affords.

    Cougan is much more tactful in his responses than TBIR, but ultimately they both believe that Christ has condemned all who don't believe like them, are not baptised in the way they believe or belong to their denomination........Which is funny, because I believe both Cougan and TBIR are saved.

    Oh, TBIR, I apologize for not quoting several scriptures to back up my post.&nbsp;
  18. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    Who shall I believe? Greek "experts"? (the predestination kind of GREEK EXPERTS have assured me that Jn6:67 uses the negative-question-form-of "ME", in making a STATEMENT rather than a QUESTION ("You are NOT going to go away TOO!)---yet Peter's answer is perfectly consistent with a real question. And THEN, Jesus' answer can only support the reality of the question, for Jesus stated: "I chose ALL TWELVE of you, and one DID go away".)

    So I am less interested in Greek technicalities, and much more interested in context; English has very much changed in 2000 years, are we to presume that Greek has not? But we can be certain of Greek meaning in Scripture, by combining our current understanding of Greek lanquage with usage in the entire Scripture. Some who believe in "OSAS" try to assert that "PSUCHE" in James 5:20 is only the MIND, not the SOUL; yet James' contemporary, John, uses "psuche" to mean "soul" in Rev20:4. No I don't have a doctorate in Greek, but I have the context of the entire Scripture; and it says "salvation is by grace through faith".

    In my post #107, page 11, I strove to convey "the essence of salvation". The reason I persist in this discussion. From context of the entire New Testament, salvation by grace through faith and water-baptism contradicts the essence---and this is what I have been striving to illustrate. I do not believe Scriptures present salvation in a way so subtle that extremely fine analysis of Greek structure is required (sometimes a little is useful---but if minute analysis of one passage contradicts other clear Scriptures, which are we to believe---the analysis or the other Scriptures?). If you are right about Mark 16:16, then I have no choice but to discard the rest of the New Testament, and Jesus' words, "he who believes is saved".

    Change my mind? Contradict myself? I think I have been very consistent; but my discussion partners here have said, "They had SPECIAL DISPENSATION---they believed and had the Holy Spirit as kindof a second pentecost". "No Peter didn't have TIME to tell them the whole Gospel, he had only STARTED, so they obviously could NOT believe, Peter must-have-meant only they had received the SPIRIT as he had, not that they had BELIEVED as he had." "They were FILLED with the Spirit BEFORE THEY BELIEVED." "OH it's only ONE VERSE, you can't prove anything with ONE VERSE!" "It may not SAY that unbaptized is condemned, but it's IMPLIED!"

    Talk about changing minds and placing reasoning above Scripture...
    Help me to understand here---was Jesus GOD? If so (and that is my belief!), then Jesus was already one with the Father AND THE SPIRIT---thus the "dove" was for the benefit of the observers.

    Jesus did not receive the Holy Spirit---He was already ONE with Him. One in ESSENCE.
    The Scripture says "water-baptized for the forgiveness of sins". But 1Pet3 clarifies what that means: "BAPTISM now saves you, AS AN APPEAL TO GOD FOR A CLEAR CONSCIENCE." You believe it is the WATER that forgives sins, while the rest of Scripture boldly declares it is REPENTANCE that causes sins to be forgiven!

    REPENTANCE. "Appeal to God for a clear conscience". The water is the SYMBOL of the TRUE BAPTISM, which is the immersion into CHRIST. "Water baptism for the forgiveness of sins" is the symbol accompanied by repentance. If one is water-baptized, but is NOT repentant, is he saved? If WATER=SALVATION, then yes! But surely you agree than an unrepentant water-baptized-person IS NOT SAVED! Do you agree?
    THen why does John declare that "If you CONFESS your sins He is faithful and just to forgive your sins and to cleanse you from all unrighteousness" (1Jn1:9)? Are we to ASSUME that John MEANT "CONFESS and be WATERBAPTIZED"??? Did John mean what he said, and say what he meant?

    If WATER forgives sins, then what of sins committed SUBSEQUENTLY? Are they forgiven by PROXY to THAT DIPPING? Or are they to be DIPPED AGAIN AND AGAIN? (Careful---you say that WATER forgives sins, so why NOT require frequent dipping to forgive subsequent sins?)

    John meant what he said; confess (which is to repent), and He forgives.
    And that is EXACTLY MY POINT! Salvation can ACCOMPANY waterbaptism, salvation can PRECEED waterbaptism, and salvation can SUCCEED waterbaptism! How can you EXPLAIN THAT, if waterbaptism is PART _OF_ salvation?

    You cannot. Salvation is belief. All the rest, is consequence of that belief.
    Contradictory? On the contrary, Jesus said, "No good tree can produce bad fruit, no bad tree can produce good. You will KNOW them by their FRUIT!" Of COURSE it's "obedient faith" Did not Jesus say, "Only those who DO the will of the Father inherit the kingdom"? (Matt7:21). Faith---true, obedient, persistent, enduring, persevering; "You have need of endurance, that when you have done the will of the Father you may inherit the promise" (Heb10). There is no "weird twist", only the entirity of Scripture. James in ch2 says "faith that PRODUCES no works is DEAD (unsaved)". EXACTLY what Jesus said: "NO GOOD TREE produces bad fruit"!
    It simply is the easiest passage to give you that you cannot refute in your own esteem. They were SAVED, then they were waterbaptized. To CONTRADICT that, you would have to contend that "the SPIRIT indwelt UNBELIEVERS!" Are you prepared to do that?

    I believe that salvation can be lost---but not by "doing this-or-that sin". James 1 plainly says "GOD does not tempt, MAN is tempted by his own lust; and lust concieved, gives birth to sin, which brings death." Back to Jesus' words, "NO GOOD TREE, NO BAD TREE..." It is not the SINS that condemn us, it is the HEART that PRACTICES sin. ("If I continue sinning willfully after receiving true knowledge of the Truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a terrifying expectation of judgment, and fury of fire that consumes adversaries..." Heb10:26) Yet my perspective is identical to yours---I am at peace, and do not live in fear; for I abide in HIM! Just as you, I confess my sins out of love and devotion to Christ. But were I NOT to confess, and were I to ABIDE in CONTINUAL sin, I believe my salvation would be forfeit. I do not fear, but I "make certain of my calling and election that I display SAVED-FRUITS, that the EISODOS-gate of Heaven be provided me" (1Pet1), I "keep myself in the love of God, awaiting the mercy of Christ to eternal life" (Jd1). No fear, only love. (1Jn4)
    I am not so certain of that. The Gospel says, "salvation is by belief in Christ; the Cross provided to us by grace, that whosoever believes should not perish but have eternal life. One who says "there is something ADDITIONAL that needs to be done, (grace through faith + ANYTHING), does not understand the essence of salvation.

    Hence my persistence in this discussion; and my striving to convey that essence of salvation, in posts like #107. Salvation is BY BELIEF. Period. The ONE BAPTISM, is INTO CHRIST---we receive Him, we enter into His fold, and we abide in Him---we are immersed into Christ. In Him we have forgiveness. In Him we are dead to our old selves, and made "new creations". IN HIM we are BORN AGAIN---and it has nothing to do with water. It is only belief---belief that causes "doing-God's-will", belief that causes "repentant", belief that causes "humbled", belief that causes "water-baptized". The tree follows its heart---a saved tree produces good fruit---it has no choice; but the fruit does not make the tree, the tree makes the fruit!

    This is the "reason of my persistence" here---not to win arguments, but to contend correctly for the Gospel, that salvation be correctly defined and conveyed. ALL CHRISTIANS ARE WATER-BAPTIZED---therefore the entire discussion is moot; yet, if one does NOT understand the essence of salvation, then he has FALLEN SHORT! (Heb4:1---look this up!)

    ...and that would be a TERRIBLE position in which to find oneself...
  19. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    Ben you bring out a very good point that most people that are of your perswasion will never say or agree about. If I believe that one must belive confess, repent and be baptized in order to be saved and the bible teaches that one must just belive I would be adding to the plan of salvation and I would be lost. The same is true if I am correct in my view you to are lost because you would only be proclaiming part of what you need to be saved. I agree with your thinking on this.

    Why are you talking about the Greek in Jn 6:67 when the topic is Mark 16:16? I'm not dealing with that verse or what the Greek authorities have said. The Greek rule in Mark 16:16 is true in ever occurence, there is not one exception therefor there isnt a contridiction anywhere. Just because this goes againt your view doesnt make this Greek rule wrong. There just simply no way around this and you can not disprove it.

    I have never said that that Cornelius household belived in Jesus before they were filled with the HS to the best of knowledge. I will say that the very much belived in God just not in Jesus crucified. I have not contridicted myself one time as far as I know. I have not even contridicted acts 10 and 11 I showed you how the 2 chapters go together and explained it how it happened you just dont like the clear answer. By the way I never said anthing about a 2nd Pentacost either.

    If someone is water baptized without repenting he is lost. I have told you time and time again that one must belive, repent, confess and then be baptized in water. It takes all of them working together. You bring up 1Jn 1:9 and I belive that verse to be very true. What you must be missing is that this is being told to those that are already saved. You only have to water baptized once because this is how you get into Christ where all the spirtual blessing are and where salvation is. eph 1:3, 2Tim 2:10. Once you are in Christ you are are Christian a new creature and without sin right after you are raised up from the water grave of baptism. But we are not perfect and we will stumble and when we sin we repent pray to God and confess our sin they are forgiven. One cannot do this until they are in Christ. This cause another problem with your view Ben. You say Faith Alone but you also say the way someone gets into Christ is by immersion/HS filled. So even with your view you would have to say that one must be immersed in Christ to be saved.

    Azotrooper I dont live my life scared that I am going to sin then immediatly be lost. If I willfully sin yes I will be lost but if I am struggling with something and I stumble but I keep on trying to walk in Faith I will not be lost. 1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son leanses us from all sin. You see you don't know me or my bretheren. I confident of my salvation because I do my best to be a good servant of God. I do not think I can ever earn my salvation because I cant. I just do what I can for my God.

    One last thing Ben how did you get HS filled without having an apostle lay his hands on you?

  20. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    Let's deal with this one concept. We "get into Christ" through waterbaptism. Can you find one verse that declares that? While you look, I'll share: "The Gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." (Rm1:16) "The gospel of your salvaiton; having BELIEVED, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise." (Eph1:13)

    Why is it we have so many verses that say "believe and you will be saved" (Rom10:9-10), with no mention of waterbaptism, and so many verses that say "those who do NOT believe are condemned"---but not a single verse that says "those who are not waterbaptized are condemned"? There is only one answer---water-baptism is not part of salvation. Think about it---Mark 16:16 says "he who believes and is baptized is saved", but it also says "only disbelief condemns". There is no verse in the Bible that says "unbaptzed condemns"; so your dogma must be inferred.

    "UNBAPTIZED-CONDEMNED" doesn't fit the Scriptures; but "waterbaptism-as-a-CONSEQUENCE-of-belief", fits the entire Scripture PERFECTLY!
    No you haven't, you have doged the answer. Either they were SAVED, BEFORE being waterbaptized, or they weren't saved UNTIL being baptized. Which? Black-and-white, Cougan, if waterbaptism is PART OF SALVATION, then they weren't saved until they were wetted. Right? (Right---can't deny that.) So, before they were saved, THE HOLY SPIRIT INDWELT THEM! Here is the question you dodge---does the Holy Spirit ever indwell someone before he is saved? (Please give Scripture.)

    Now, I am contending that salvation is by BELIEF. And the Holy Spirit only indwells believers (Eph1:13---having BELIEVED, you received the Holy Spirit!)---thus, they believed, they were saved, and THEN they were baptized. Black and white, no way to argue. Salvation is by belief, and believers are dipped if they can.

    Yet in a prison camp, where dipping isn't possible (and may even be EXECUTABLE), I guarantee you that everyone who believes is saved! Have you ever seen "The Hiding Place"? Every one of those women who believed were saved. And they were NOT BAPTIZED! (Those who survived, surely were water-baptized upon release.)

    Please answer this---those who did NOT survive, like the piano player who had her hands smashed---will you dare say she was not bound for Heaven? Was she? Or not? If WATER is PART of salvation, then she PERISHED! Did she? Yes or no...

    And now I await your explanation, Scriptural, of how "IN CHRIST" is through WATER...