Just ask anyone that knows the rules of grammer in sentence structure and they will tell you with out a doubt that verbs that are aorist participles must occur first before the main verb happens.
Who shall I believe? Greek "experts"? (the
predestination kind of GREEK EXPERTS have assured me that Jn6:67 uses the negative-question-form-of "ME", in making a STATEMENT rather than a QUESTION ("You are NOT going to go away TOO!)---yet Peter's answer is perfectly consistent with a real question. And THEN, Jesus' answer can only support the reality of the question, for Jesus stated: "I chose ALL TWELVE of you, and one DID go away".)
So I am less interested in Greek technicalities, and much more interested in
context; English has very much changed in 2000 years, are we to presume that Greek has not? But we can be certain of Greek meaning in Scripture, by combining our current understanding of Greek lanquage
with usage in the entire Scripture. Some who believe in "OSAS" try to assert that "PSUCHE" in James 5:20 is only the MIND, not the SOUL; yet James' contemporary, John, uses "psuche" to mean
"soul" in Rev20:4. No I don't have a doctorate in Greek, but I have the context of the entire Scripture; and it says "salvation is by grace through faith".
In my post #107, page 11, I strove to convey
"the essence of salvation". The reason I persist in this discussion. From context of the entire New Testament, salvation by grace through faith
and water-baptism contradicts the essence---and this is what I have been striving to illustrate. I do not believe Scriptures present salvation in a way so subtle that extremely fine analysis of Greek structure is required (sometimes a little is useful---but if minute analysis of one passage contradicts other clear Scriptures, which are we to believe---the analysis or the other Scriptures?). If you are right about Mark 16:16, then I have no choice but to discard the rest of the New Testament, and Jesus' words, "he who believes is saved".
Change my mind? Contradict myself? I think I have been very consistent; but my discussion partners here have said, "They had SPECIAL DISPENSATION---they believed and had the Holy Spirit as kindof a second
pentecost". "No Peter didn't have TIME to tell them the whole Gospel, he had only STARTED, so they
obviously could NOT believe, Peter must-have-meant only they had received the SPIRIT as he had, not that they had BELIEVED as he had." "They were FILLED with the Spirit BEFORE THEY BELIEVED." "OH it's only ONE VERSE, you can't prove anything with ONE VERSE!" "It may not SAY that unbaptized is condemned, but it's IMPLIED!"
Talk about changing minds and placing reasoning above Scripture...
It wasn't until Jesus was baptized by his foreruner that the HS descended on him and God proclaimed him being his Son.
Help me to understand here---was Jesus GOD? If so (and that is my belief!), then Jesus was
already one with the Father AND THE SPIRIT---thus the "dove"
was for the benefit of the observers.
Jesus did not receive the Holy Spirit---He was already ONE with Him. One in ESSENCE.
sinners ...being baptized for the forgiveness of sin.
The Scripture says "
water-baptized for the forgiveness of sins". But 1Pet3 clarifies what that means: "BAPTISM now saves you,
AS AN APPEAL TO GOD FOR A CLEAR CONSCIENCE." You believe it is the WATER that forgives sins,
while the rest of Scripture boldly declares it is REPENTANCE that causes sins to be forgiven!
REPENTANCE. "Appeal to God for a clear conscience". The water is the SYMBOL of the
TRUE BAPTISM, which is the
immersion into CHRIST.
"Water baptism for the forgiveness of sins" is the
symbol accompanied by repentance. If one is water-baptized, but is NOT repentant, is he saved? If WATER=SALVATION, then yes! But surely you agree than an
unrepentant water-baptized-person IS NOT SAVED! Do you agree?
It should be very clear that water baptism is part of salvation and is for the remission of sins.
THen why does John declare that "If you CONFESS your sins He is faithful and just to forgive your sins and to cleanse you from all unrighteousness" (1Jn1:9)? Are we to ASSUME that John
MEANT "CONFESS
and be WATERBAPTIZED"??? Did John mean what he said, and say what he meant?
If WATER forgives sins, then what of sins committed
SUBSEQUENTLY? Are they forgiven
by PROXY to THAT DIPPING? Or are they to be DIPPED AGAIN AND AGAIN? (Careful---you say that WATER forgives sins, so why NOT require frequent dipping
to forgive subsequent sins?)
John meant what he said; confess (which is to repent),
and He forgives.
I can and already have shown you many passages that show people were water baptized first, then they recieved the HS ONLY through the laying on the hands of the apostles.
And that is EXACTLY MY POINT! Salvation can
ACCOMPANY waterbaptism, salvation can PRECEED
waterbaptism, and salvation can SUCCEED
waterbaptism! How can you
EXPLAIN THAT, if
waterbaptism is
PART _OF_ salvation?
You cannot. Salvation is belief. All the rest, is
consequence of that belief.
Then you expound on it saying not just any kind of faith but faith that would cause you to repent, confess and do the will of God. This concept is contradictory within itself. FAITH ALONE is exactly what is says FAITH ALONE. You however have put this weird twist to it but when it comes right down to it you believe that one must have obedient Faith.
Contradictory? On the contrary, Jesus said, "No good tree can produce bad fruit, no bad tree can produce good. You will KNOW them by their FRUIT!" Of
COURSE it's "obedient faith" Did not Jesus say, "Only those who DO the will of the Father inherit the kingdom"? (Matt7:21). Faith---true, obedient, persistent, enduring, persevering; "You have need of endurance, that when you have done the will of the Father you may inherit the promise" (Heb10). There is no "weird twist", only
the entirity of Scripture. James in ch2 says "faith that PRODUCES no works is DEAD (unsaved)". EXACTLY what Jesus said: "NO GOOD TREE produces bad fruit"!
You take the one exception in the Bible where someone got the HS then was water baptized and try to hang on to it with dear life.
It simply is the easiest passage to give you
that you cannot refute in your own esteem. They were SAVED,
then they were waterbaptized. To CONTRADICT that, you would have to contend that "the SPIRIT indwelt UNBELIEVERS!" Are you prepared to do that?
Ben Johnson,
You are much more persistent and patient than I. Just let them carry around their burdens that Christ has already said He would carry for us all. When I commit a sin, I confess it out of conviction and devotion to my savior. The CoC do it because they believe they will lose their salvation if they don't. Living in fear. I believe that love casts out fear, and enjoy the liberty and freedom that being saved by Christ affords.
I believe that salvation
can be lost---but not by "doing this-or-that sin". James 1 plainly says "GOD does not tempt, MAN is tempted by his own lust; and lust concieved, gives birth to sin, which brings death." Back to Jesus' words, "NO GOOD TREE, NO BAD TREE..." It is not the SINS that condemn us, it is the HEART that
PRACTICES sin.
("If I continue sinning willfully after receiving true knowledge of the Truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins but a terrifying expectation of judgment, and fury of fire that consumes adversaries..." Heb10:26) Yet my perspective is identical to yours---I am at peace, and do not live in fear;
for I abide in HIM! Just as you, I confess my sins out of love and devotion to Christ. But were I NOT to confess, and were I to ABIDE in CONTINUAL sin, I believe my salvation would be forfeit. I do not fear, but I "make certain of my calling and election
that I display SAVED-FRUITS, that the EISODOS-gate of Heaven be provided me" (1Pet1), I "keep myself in the love of God, awaiting the mercy of Christ to eternal life" (Jd1). No fear,
only love. (1Jn4)
Which is funny, because I believe both Cougan and TBIR are saved.
I am not so certain of that. The Gospel says, "salvation is by belief in Christ; the Cross provided to us by grace,
that whosoever believes should not perish but have eternal life. One who says "there is something
ADDITIONAL that needs to be done, (grace through faith
+ ANYTHING),
does not understand the essence of salvation.
Hence my persistence in this discussion; and my striving to convey that essence of salvation, in posts like #107. Salvation is BY BELIEF. Period. The ONE BAPTISM, is
INTO CHRIST---we receive Him, we enter into His fold, and we abide in Him---
we are immersed into Christ. In Him we have forgiveness. In Him we are dead to our old selves, and made "new creations". IN HIM we are BORN AGAIN---
and it has nothing to do with water. It is only belief---belief that causes "doing-God's-will", belief that causes "repentant", belief that causes "humbled", belief that causes "water-baptized". The tree follows its heart---a saved tree
produces good fruit---
it has no choice; but the fruit does not make the tree,
the tree makes the fruit!
This is the "reason of my persistence" here---not to win arguments, but to contend correctly for the Gospel, that salvation be correctly defined and conveyed. ALL CHRISTIANS ARE WATER-BAPTIZED---therefore
the entire discussion is moot; yet, if one does NOT understand the essence of salvation,
then he has FALLEN SHORT! (Heb4:1---look this up!)
...and that would be a TERRIBLE position in which to find oneself...