What about Baptism?

[Ben johnson]

This makes the demons saved in James 2. They believed after all.

Hmmm, I guess you're right. A demon must believe and be BAPTIZED to be saved. Right?

As I have said before, according to Jesus as-recorded-in-John, ONLY BELIEF saves you. Yet, Jesus threw up some conditions---it isn't any KIND of belief that saves you, only the kind of belief that causes us to be:

&#149Humbled as a child (Matt18:3-4)
&#149doing the will of the Father (Matt7:21)
&#149repentant (Luke 13:3)
&#149Born Again (Jn3:3)

Each of those conditions is couched as, "Unless _______, you will NOT inherit Heaven".

But the LAST condition, "BORN AGAIN", is the banner under which all the others reside. And, arguably, under which water-baptism resides. You see, "BORN-AGAIN" is a heart-change, the surrender of control to Jesus---"I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the One who loved me and gave Himself up for me." THUS---the changed man, the one that is now "DEAD-TO-SIN" and "WALKING in the SPIRIT", who is "FILLED WITH JESUS & the SPIRIT", that one will CONSEQUENTLY be repentant, CONSEQUENTLY be humbled, CONSEQUENTLY be doing God's will, and yes, CONSEQUENTLY be water-baptized. The change-of-heart is what saves us, by RECEIVING CHRIST, not by the medium of water.

Now let's talk about "repentance"---you seem to say that "OBEDIENCE" equates to salvation---and, in a sense, you are right. Those who OBEY GOD, who do not practice sin, are saved; "By this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest; those who practice righteousness is righteous, those who practice unrighteousness is not of God." 1Jn3

Do you understand? In all of your examples, you are correct---they were not following God; but it wasn't the DEEDS that condemned them, it was the HEARTS that DID bad deeds. "No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good. Therefore any tree that does not produce good fruit is cut of ...and cast into the fire." Matt7.

We are not condemned by sins. We are not saved by sinlessness. When in Rev20 it says, "each man was judged according to his deeds", it is not the actions that save or condemn them---but their deeds themselves, each deed will take the witness stand and give testimony to their HEARTS---and a saved heart WILL DO GOOD DEEDS, an unsaved heart will do evil.

So we end up very close to agreement---a true Christian, WILL be water-baptized, if he can; but if he cannot, for reasons beyond his control, he is just as Heaven-bound as one who has been dunked in the prefabricated, sunset-almond-hued, chrome-accessorized, hard-surfaced fiberglass-with-anti-skid-appliques, BAPTISMAL at your local neighborhood church...

 

[cougan]

Oh I see it all depends on how you define Faith only. We are under a working faith arent we? Faith has alway being a Faith of action. You can tie everything back to Faith in one way or another since this is the fundmental concept of Christianity. Obedience can be weighed by our amount of Faith. But you can still have Faith that is belive and still sin because of a lack of obedience. Although alot of things that you do wrong may a result of a weak Faith it is not the only thing that can disqualify you. Yes it has a part in it but it is not the whole. Also I might add that Faith is a work.

Your just as confused as old Nicodemus was.

4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he
is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb
and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless
one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the
kingdom of God.

Jesus tells us we must be born of water and the spirit. I think I will take Jesus at his word Ben. Oh yeah I amost forgot to point out that you have chaged your 4 baptism back to 3. You said that imersion into christ was the same as being filled with the HS. See Ben you are still confused.

Here is what you sound like to me. You must be baptized to be saved, I mean you must be immersed into Christ. There are 4 baptism no wait a min there is only 1 that saves but then again you should be water baptized. Oh wait a min imersed into christ is the sames as being filled with HS so there is 3 baptism. You are saved by Faith Only. Well what I mean is Faith Only means following some of those rules that Christ put up. Uh water Baptism is just a Jewish ritual but we should do it anyways.

When I add all the things you have proclaimed together you just get one confusing mess. You have got all the bases covered. I want you to clear this up in your next post what the heck you belive in.

You know it is interesting that in Eph 4:4-5 which you said is talking about those thing realated to salvation which I completly agree included 7 different ones. You will notice that Baptism is one of these 7 which has to do with our salvation. Not only does these verses show that there is only one faith, but that there is only baptism that saves which makes baptism nesscary for salvtion. Either this baptism is water baptism or its simply HS baptism/imersion into Christ as you have stated. For clairfication I belive that you are immersed in Christ when you are water baptized. One of these have to be true. There arent any maybes here because the word of GOd says there is ONE baptism. You can not get around that. Just a radom thought, if you are baptized/immersed/filled with HS would'nt that make you imersed in the HS and not immersed in Jesus? Unless of course you think the HS is Jesus. If you are right in your view then there is absoultly no reason to contiue in useless Jewish tradtion. There is would be absoulty no reason to be water baptized. We know that the one baptism puts you into Christ death and into his body/church and is when your sins are removed. You would not need a water baptism to associate you with the church if you have already been added it to it by Holy Spirt Baptism. I want you to address this Ben.

Just as a reminder to show that it is water baptism that is being refered to just remeber Jesus said water and spirit and in Mat 28 he commanded his disciples to baptize people that is something that they could do that they could adminster. I challenge you to prove that otherwize. You know good and well that Jesus is speaking of water baptism because no man can baptize you in the HS because that is something that God did in the 1st century. The apostels were the only ones able to impart the gift of the HS by the laying on of hands and the last time I checked there are not any more apostles today. You see the instrutions there on the day of Pentacost when Peter told them to repent and be baptized. Now how can the be baptized unless someone baptizes them. Again you see in in Acts 8 where Philip was baptizing with water and in Acts 10 Peter was commanding them to be baptized in water. Not to mention in 1Peter 3:20-21 where the saving water that saved Noah and his family is compared to how water baptism saves us now. I would like to see how you try and squrim your way out of this. Just remember Ben it is hard to kick against the goads.

 

[The Bible is Right]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Hmmm, I guess you're right. A demon must believe and be BAPTIZED to be saved. Right?

As I have said before, according to Jesus as-recorded-in-John, ONLY BELIEF saves you. Yet, Jesus threw up some conditions---it isn't any KIND of belief that saves you, only the kind of belief that causes us to be:

•Humbled as a child (Matt18:3-4)
•doing the will of the Father (Matt7:21)
•repentant (Luke 13:3)
•Born Again (Jn3:3)

Each of those conditions is couched as, "Unless _______, you will NOT inherit Heaven".

But the LAST condition, "BORN AGAIN", is the banner under which all the others reside. And, arguably, under which water-baptism resides. You see, "BORN-AGAIN" is a heart-change, the surrender of control to Jesus---"I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the One who loved me and gave Himself up for me." THUS---the changed man, the one that is now "DEAD-TO-SIN" and "WALKING in the SPIRIT", who is "FILLED WITH JESUS & the SPIRIT", that one will CONSEQUENTLY be repentant, CONSEQUENTLY be humbled, CONSEQUENTLY be doing God's will, and yes, CONSEQUENTLY be water-baptized. The change-of-heart is what saves us, by RECEIVING CHRIST, not by the medium of water.

Now let's talk about "repentance"---you seem to say that "OBEDIENCE" equates to salvation---and, in a sense, you are right. Those who OBEY GOD, who do not practice sin, are saved; "By this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest; those who practice righteousness is righteous, those who practice unrighteousness is not of God." 1Jn3

Do you understand? In all of your examples, you are correct---they were not following God; but it wasn't the DEEDS that condemned them, it was the HEARTS that DID bad deeds. "No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good. Therefore any tree that does not produce good fruit is cut of ...and cast into the fire." Matt7.

We are not condemned by sins. We are not saved by sinlessness. When in Rev20 it says, "each man was judged according to his deeds", it is not the actions that save or condemn them---but their deeds themselves, each deed will take the witness stand and give testimony to their HEARTS---and a saved heart WILL DO GOOD DEEDS, an unsaved heart will do evil.

So we end up very close to agreement---a true Christian, WILL be water-baptized, if he can; but if he cannot, for reasons beyond his control, he is just as Heaven-bound as one who has been dunked in the prefabricated, sunset-almond-hued, chrome-accessorized, hard-surfaced fiberglass-with-anti-skid-appliques, BAPTISMAL at your local neighborhood church...

 

Hi Ben,

I have been following your dialog with Cougan and I just have one question for you.

Did anyone in Acts 2 obey what Jesus said in Mark 16:16?

 

[The Bible is Right]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Hmmm, I guess you're right. A demon must believe and be BAPTIZED to be saved. Right?

As I have said before, according to Jesus as-recorded-in-John, ONLY BELIEF saves you. Yet, Jesus threw up some conditions---it isn't any KIND of belief that saves you, only the kind of belief that causes us to be:

•Humbled as a child (Matt18:3-4)
•doing the will of the Father (Matt7:21)
•repentant (Luke 13:3)
•Born Again (Jn3:3)

Each of those conditions is couched as, "Unless _______, you will NOT inherit Heaven".

But the LAST condition, "BORN AGAIN", is the banner under which all the others reside. And, arguably, under which water-baptism resides. You see, "BORN-AGAIN" is a heart-change, the surrender of control to Jesus---"I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the One who loved me and gave Himself up for me." THUS---the changed man, the one that is now "DEAD-TO-SIN" and "WALKING in the SPIRIT", who is "FILLED WITH JESUS & the SPIRIT", that one will CONSEQUENTLY be repentant, CONSEQUENTLY be humbled, CONSEQUENTLY be doing God's will, and yes, CONSEQUENTLY be water-baptized. The change-of-heart is what saves us, by RECEIVING CHRIST, not by the medium of water.

Now let's talk about "repentance"---you seem to say that "OBEDIENCE" equates to salvation---and, in a sense, you are right. Those who OBEY GOD, who do not practice sin, are saved; "By this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest; those who practice righteousness is righteous, those who practice unrighteousness is not of God." 1Jn3

Do you understand? In all of your examples, you are correct---they were not following God; but it wasn't the DEEDS that condemned them, it was the HEARTS that DID bad deeds. "No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good. Therefore any tree that does not produce good fruit is cut of ...and cast into the fire." Matt7.

We are not condemned by sins. We are not saved by sinlessness. When in Rev20 it says, "each man was judged according to his deeds", it is not the actions that save or condemn them---but their deeds themselves, each deed will take the witness stand and give testimony to their HEARTS---and a saved heart WILL DO GOOD DEEDS, an unsaved heart will do evil.

So we end up very close to agreement---a true Christian, WILL be water-baptized, if he can; but if he cannot, for reasons beyond his control, he is just as Heaven-bound as one who has been dunked in the prefabricated, sunset-almond-hued, chrome-accessorized, hard-surfaced fiberglass-with-anti-skid-appliques, BAPTISMAL at your local neighborhood church...

You left out Mark 16:16 be baptized! is a condition.

 

[Ben johnson]

We are under a working faith arent we? Faith has alway been a Faith of action.
Of course. As James says, "Faith, if it PRODUCES no works, is dead being by itself." Jms2:14ff
You can tie everything back to Faith in one way or another since this is the fundamental concept of Christianity. Obedience can be weighed by our amount of Faith. But you can still have Faith that is belief and still sin because of a lack of obedience.
No. Dead faith is not saved faith---James merely reiterates Jesus' words, "No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree good. Therefore ANY TREE that does NOT PRODUCE GOOD FRUIT is cut down and ...cast into the fire."
Although alot of things that you do wrong may a result of a weak Faith it is not the only thing that can disqualify you.
Really? And what "THINGS DONE WRONG" won't disqualify us? Things like a little drunkenness? A bit of adultery? A smidgeon of robbery? Maybe only an iota of idolatry, sorcery strife, jealousy, anger, factions, just harmless ignorable attitude faults? Are there exceptions to what Paul listed in 1Cor6:9-15 & Gal5:19-21 with the words, "DO NOT BE DECEIVED---WILL NOT INHERIT HEAVEN!???
Yes it has a part in it but it is not the whole.
It has a MAJOR part in it, Cougan. Friuts reveal who we are in our hearts---"By this the children of God and the children of the devil are revealed"...
Also I might add that Faith is a work.
Please cite Scripture that says "our belief is our own work"? Meanwile, I will cite (with parentheses for correct exegesis), Eph2:8-9: "For by grace through faith have you been saved, and that (grace-through-faith salvation) is not of yourselves, it (grace-through-faith salvation) is the gift of God; (grace-through-faith salvation is) NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS that anyone should boast..."

Where does faith-unto-salvation come from, Cougan? Paul says it comes from HEARING, from our own HEARTS (that suffer conviction from hearing). Rm10:10&17

"This is the work of God, that you believe (have faith-unto-salvation) in Him whom He has sent." Jn6:29

God has predestined Jesus from the beginning---that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES is saved. Our salvation is a gift of grace by Him, out of love---and it is received by us through our own faith. Do you still submit that our faith-in-receiving that gift, is a WORK that we attribute to OURSEVES? If it IS a work, then it is the work of GOD---to say it is OUR work contradicts Scripture...

Jesus tells us we must be born of water and the spirit. I think I will take Jesus at his word Ben.

"'A man cannot enter into his mother's womb and be born a second time, can he?'
Jesus answered, 'Truly I say to you uness one is born of HUDOR (water-as-the-fundamental-element) AND the Spirit, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.' "

So the two sentences, said BACK-TO-BACK and IN THE SAME BREATH addressed DIFFERENT ISSUES??? water-baptism & Spirit-birth, then flesh-birth & Spirit birth? No, Cougan---they are the SAME. Water/flesh and Spirit/spirit. The water is flesh---"HUDOR", water-as-the-fundamental-element. Both C.O.C. and many Catholics want Jesus to have totally jumped-track here and to have inserted a command for water-baptism---but it's in answer to Nicodemus, "no I don't mean fleshly birth a second time, water/flesh is flesh and Spirit/Spirit is spirit. You must be born of flesh-water AND ALSO be born of the Spirit."

There is absolutey NUTHIN' about being "DIPPED" in Jn3...

Oh yeah I amost forgot to point out that you have changed your 4 baptisms back to 3

Being "IMMERSED INTO CHRIST" is being "born again", death-of-the-old and birth-of-the-new (see 2Cor5:17); being FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT is having the Hoy Spirit indwell us and minister to us from inside our hearts---technically, different concepts, different baptisms. Yet both come under the banner of SAVED---you cannot have one without the other. Both indicate the ONE SALVATION. Clearer now?

Do both of us a favor? In Eph4:5, please cut out a little rectangle of "Post-It-Note&#153", and place it on verse 5, over the word, "baptism" and write: "immersion". When WE see the word "BAPTIZE" we tend to think of DIPPING-IN-WATER---but they had no such automatic assumption. They heard the common word, "immersion"---so by doing this you are closer to Paul. "There is one Lord, one faith, one immersion." S'allright?

Now we have PROVEN (by reading Matt3) that there are DIFFERENT BAPTISMS (other than water)---why can you not consider that the one in Eph4 & Rom6, is separate from water too? The "ONE IMMERSION"---do we disagree that this is "IN CHRIST"? I think we only disagree on whether that happens when you BELIEVE, or when you are WET (and believe).

For clairification I believe that you are immersed in Christ when you are water baptized. One of these have to be true. There aren't any maybes here because the word of GOd says there is ONE baptism. You can not get around that. Just a random thought, if you are baptized/immersed/filled with HS would'nt that make you immersed in the HS and not immersed in Jesus?

In Acts 10:44-47 were believers, baptized in the Spirit and bapt--er, I mean IMMERSED into Christ---FULLY SAVED. But they had not been dipped-in-water. Here is irrefutable proof that Christ-immersion is SEPARATE from water-immersion. Care to try to refute that? And as we discussed just a couple paragraphs back, being "FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT" and being "IMMERSED INTO CHRIST" are technically separate and distinct---but they don't exist apart---you can't have one without the other. He who is SAVED, will be INDWELT with the Spirit, and will be immersed in Christ ("born again")...

Yes Jesus was speaking of water-baptism in Matt28. But does it have anything to do with salvation? They all were baptized, and most accounts show them also speaking in tongues---shall we believe that without tongues one is not-saved, or not-filled-with-the-Spirit? Of course not.

Let's look at 1Pet3:21---"WATER-BAPTISM now saves you." Case closed? Well, saves you from what, saves you how? "...as an appeal to God for a clear conscience." Hmmm---isn't this, really, just another way of saying "repentance & forgiveness"? Is water a part of repentance or forgiveness? 'Course not---water is separate. We DO sin after becoming Christian---and we certainly aren't dipped each time we repent & ask forgiveness. Which then saves us---the WATER, or the REPENTANCE? And, there is more to the verse: "...now saves you as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, _BY_ the resurrection of Jesus Christ!" Well, it seems to be saying that our repentance/forgiveness is through Jesus' resurrection! So then the BAPTISM represents an APPEAL for CLEAR CONSCIENCE---but the VEHICLE of our forgiveness, is NOT THE WATER---it is Jesus' RESURRECTION!!!

Else we would hafta return to Acts 10, and fabricate a system of "dispensations", to "exempt" them from the "obvious baptismal requirement for salvation". Many people actually DO this. Rejecting the clear writing of James & Peter that indicates "falling-from-salvation", "because JAMES' and PETER'S LETTERS were from different DISPENSATIONS than ours! So we can IGNORE THEM in our rejection of COVENANT THEOLOGY and embracing of DISPENSATIONISM!

I would like to see how you try and squrim your way out of this. Just remember Ben it is hard to kick against the goads.

Squirm outta what? I don't think I was ever in trouble.

But, you, Cougan, I think you are holding the "goad" by the wrong end. The "pointy-part" is supposed to face away from you...

 

[Ben johnson]

You left out Mark 16:16 be baptized! is a condition.

A condition of what? "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved".

What if he had said, "He who has believed and keeps the commandments and has sold all his possessions and given to the poor"? Will such a one be saved? Certainly. Now, this is the EXACT ANSWER that Jesus said to the rich man---reading this passage alone one might be inclined to believe the COMMANDMENT KEEPING and the GIVING is part of salvation---yet we know from all of context, that it is ony BELIEF that saves him. So, the rest are anecdotal.

"He who has believed and has been baptized is saved." It doesn't actually SAY that water-baptism (I just love that color...) is a part of salvation, does it? I submit that its inclusion here, is just as anecdotal as what Jesus said to the rich man...

(Just like in Rom8, where it says "Those whom He foreknew He also called", doesn't contradict that He also called everyone else too...)

This brings us to the $64,000 question:

...pretend you are Mark, writing what Jesus said; when you get to this part, you write as accurately as you can. You have spent several YEARS with Jesus, you understand fully the nature of salvation. MANY more conversations occurred than are recounted in Scripture. There can be no doubt about the meaning, and your memory, as you (Mark) record Jesus' words.

QUESTION--- if water-baptism is ABSOLUTELY PART of salvation, you (Mark) would COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND that, and Jesus would ABSOLUTELY HAVE SAID that.
WHY DOESN'T VERSE 16 SAY, "He who has disbelived and NOT BEEN WATER BAPTIZED SHALL BE CONDEMNED???

The very absence of those words screams their understanding (both Jesus' and Mark's)---water-baptism is ANECDOTAL---they who are SAVED are then BAPTIZED; but merely the absence of the WATER-BAPTISM would NOT infer condemnation.

I submit that if WATER had BEEN part of salvation, it would have been included in BOTH parts of verse 16. There's just no way it would not have...

 

[The Bible is Right]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
A condition of what? "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved".

What if he had said, "He who has believed and keeps the commandments and has sold all his possessions and given to the poor"? Will such a one be saved? Certainly. Now, this is the EXACT ANSWER that Jesus said to the rich man---reading this passage alone one might be inclined to believe the COMMANDMENT KEEPING and the GIVING is part of salvation---yet we know from all of context, that it is ony BELIEF that saves him. So, the rest are anecdotal.

"He who has believed and has been baptized is saved." It doesn't actually SAY that water-baptism (I just love that color...) is a part of salvation, does it? I submit that its inclusion here, is just as anecdotal as what Jesus said to the rich man...

(Just like in Rom8, where it says "Those whom He foreknew He also called", doesn't contradict that He also called everyone else too...)

This brings us to the $64,000 question:

...pretend you are Mark, writing what Jesus said; when you get to this part, you write as accurately as you can. You have spent several YEARS with Jesus, you understand fully the nature of salvation. MANY more conversations occurred than are recounted in Scripture. There can be no doubt about the meaning, and your memory, as you (Mark) record Jesus' words.

QUESTION--- if water-baptism is ABSOLUTELY PART of salvation, you (Mark) would COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND that, and Jesus would ABSOLUTELY HAVE SAID that.
WHY DOESN'T VERSE 16 SAY, "He who has disbelived and NOT BEEN WATER BAPTIZED SHALL BE CONDEMNED???

The very absence of those words screams their understanding (both Jesus' and Mark's)---water-baptism is ANECDOTAL---they who are SAVED are then BAPTIZED; but merely the absence of the WATER-BAPTISM would NOT infer condemnation.

I submit that if WATER had BEEN part of salvation, it would have been included in BOTH parts of verse 16. There's just no way it would not have...

First let's be careful how you use words about the inspired word meaning "anecdotal" which means "tale, incident, episode; I believe Mark was inspired when he wrote this passage as well as others.  You are worried about what it doesn't say, when you should be worried about what it does say, are you smarter than the Holy Spirit of God?  Three thousand people understood the message that Peter preached on the day of Pentecost, but there was more than three thousand people there, those who didn't believe did not respond to the message preach, so did Peter have to tell them about their unbelief?  No!  But he did warn them when he said, "And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from the untoward generation".  Let's examine your logic, with scripture to see if you understand the b) part of Mark 16:16.  In Matt.21:23-27 "And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?"  (Now listen to logic) "  24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.  25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men?  (listen to thier logic) And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?  26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.  27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things."  Now when it comes to baptism, what was thier response?  What does unbelief produce?  The a) part of Mark 16:16 is clear and the results are clear!  The b) part of Mark 16:16 is clear also, you get no results.  Now which part would you rather have a) or b)??

SALVATION IS WITH THE a) PART OF MARK 16:16 AND THAT'S WHAT GOD WANT ALL MEN TO HAVE!!!  

YOU CAN SIT AND WORRY ABOUT WHAT JESUS DIDN'T SAY ALL DAY LONG, BUT I WOULD BE MORE CONCERN ABOUT WHAT HE DID SAY!!!!   THAT'S TRUE LOGIC!

 

[Ben johnson]

When Jesus challenged them about John-the-baptist, He was seeking to silence them. They wanted cause to stone Jesus to DEATH (just like the incident with the prostitute---those stones were not for HER they were for JESUS). And Jesus threw them a curve (one of many)---He said, "You tell Me and then I'll tell you"---but they didn't dare answer His question. Which was basically not about baptism, but about Whom John was FOLLOWING---God or man? Because if John had been following GOD, "then why didn't you BELIEVE him?" And if they said John WASN'T of God (which is what they believed), then the people would have protested.

There's nothing in Matt21 that indicates WATER-BAPTIZED is required for salvation...

You are worried about what it doesn't say

No I wasn't "worried about what He didn't say", I was "worried about what He DID say".

"He who believes and has been baptized shall be saved." Would it be true to say, "He who believes and speaks in tongues shall be saved"? Certainly it would! But it doesn't mean that everyone MUST speak in tongues. How about, "He who believes and repents, humbles himself as a child, does the will of the Father, is born again, will be saved"? That would be true too. And a verse such as that would not indicate that those other 4 things are required for salvation (although from other passages we know they are!)

You say my error is that I focus on what He did NOT say. I say your error is adding WORDS to Jesus' words. "But he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." You change it to say, "He who has disbelieved and NOT BEEN WATER-BAPTIZED shall be condemned."

Jesus simply doesn't say that. DISBELIEF is the ONLY disqualification that Jesus says. And I submit that if the water-baptism was CRITICAL enough to have been INCLUDED as a REQUIREMENT of salvation, then lack-of-it would aso have been critical enough to have been included as a DISQUALIFIER of salvation.

So that's the THING---there is no verse that says, "unless you are WATER-BAPTIZED you shall PERISH. Now, there ARE verses that say, "unless you are HUMBLED AS A CHILD (Matt18:3-4), doing the will of the Father (Matt7:21), repentant (Luke13:3), and BORN AGAIN (Jn3:3), you WILL PERISH!" Each of those verses say that---Jesus did say that lack of each OR ANY of those things WILL disqualify one from salvation. Why then can we not find a single verse, in ALL THE BIBLE, that says "unless you are WATER BAPTIZED you will PERISH![/b]?

If Jesus thought water baptism was REQUIRED for SALVATION, would He not have said, SOMEWHERE SOMETIME that lack of it will disqualify us?

PS: Technically, it is not the lack of "humbled" or "repentant" or "doing God's will" that will disqualify us---Jesus said only belief that CAUSES "humbled/repentant/doing-God's-will/BORN-AGAIN" that saves us. ONLY BELIEF. And arguably saving-belief will CAUSE water-baptism, not vice-versa. But ya' gotta wonder why Jesus qualified salvation with ALL OF THOSE, and NOT WITH BAPTISM---Jesus just didn't consider water-baptism all-that-critical to salvation, did He?

Only belief is required for salvation. The kind of belief that receives Christ and does His will.

 

[The Bible is Right]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
When Jesus challenged them about John-the-baptist, He was seeking to silence them. They wanted cause to stone Jesus to DEATH (just like the incident with the prostitute---those stones were not for HER they were for JESUS). And Jesus threw them a curve (one of many)---He said, "You tell Me and then I'll tell you"---but they didn't dare answer His question. Which was basically not about baptism, but about Whom John was FOLLOWING---God or man? Because if John had been following GOD, "then why didn't you BELIEVE him?" And if they said John WASN'T of God (which is what they believed), then the people would have protested.

There's nothing in Matt21 that indicates WATER-BAPTIZED is required for salvation...

No I wasn't "worried about what He didn't say", I was "worried about what He DID say".

"He who believes and has been baptized shall be saved." Would it be true to say, "He who believes and speaks in tongues shall be saved"? Certainly it would! But it doesn't mean that everyone MUST speak in tongues. How about, "He who believes and repents, humbles himself as a child, does the will of the Father, is born again, will be saved"? That would be true too. And a verse such as that would not indicate that those other 4 things are required for salvation (although from other passages we know they are!)

You say my error is that I focus on what He did NOT say. I say your error is adding WORDS to Jesus' words. "But he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." You change it to say, "He who has disbelieved and NOT BEEN WATER-BAPTIZED shall be condemned."

Jesus simply doesn't say that. DISBELIEF is the ONLY disqualification that Jesus says. And I submit that if the water-baptism was CRITICAL enough to have been INCLUDED as a REQUIREMENT of salvation, then lack-of-it would aso have been critical enough to have been included as a DISQUALIFIER of salvation.

So that's the THING---there is no verse that says, "unless you are WATER-BAPTIZED you shall PERISH. Now, there ARE verses that say, "unless you are HUMBLED AS A CHILD (Matt18:3-4), doing the will of the Father (Matt7:21), repentant (Luke13:3), and BORN AGAIN (Jn3:3), you WILL PERISH!" Each of those verses say that---Jesus did say that lack of each OR ANY of those things WILL disqualify one from salvation. Why then can we not find a single verse, in ALL THE BIBLE, that says "unless you are WATER BAPTIZED you will PERISH!?

If Jesus thought water baptism was REQUIRED for SALVATION, would He not have said, SOMEWHERE SOMETIME that lack of it will disqualify us?

PS: Technically, it is not the lack of "humbled" or "repentant" or "doing God's will" that will disqualify us---Jesus said only belief that CAUSES "humbled/repentant/doing-God's-will/BORN-AGAIN" that saves us. ONLY BELIEF. And arguably saving-belief will CAUSE water-baptism, not vice-versa. But ya' gotta wonder why Jesus qualified salvation with ALL OF THOSE, and NOT WITH BAPTISM---Jesus just didn't consider water-baptism all-that-critical to salvation, did He?

Only belief is required for salvation. The kind of belief that receives Christ and does His will.

[/B]

"HE THAT BELIEVES AND IS BAPTIZED SHALL BE SAVED"  IS THIS STATEMENT TRUE OR FALSE?

IF IT IS TRUE, LET IT BE!

IF IT IS FALSE, THEN JESUS IS A LAIR!  I KNOW YOU WILL NOT GO THAT FAR WILL YOU?

IF A PERSON BELIEVES AND IS BAPTIZED, IS THAT PERSON SAVED?

IF YOU ANSWER YES, THEN THERE IS NO PROBLEM.  IF YOU ANSWER NO, THEN THERE IS A PROBLEM, WITH THE STATEMENT OR WITH YOUR FAITH IN THE WRITTEN WORD.

LET'S LOOK AT THE WORD "AND" IN THE STATEMENT.

WEBSTER'S

IT MEANS: IT IS A CONJUNCTION; AND IT MEANS ALSO; IN ADDITION ; 2 PLUS 3 AS A RESULT 4 IN CONTRAST; BUT.

THESAURSU: AND conj. in addition to, also, including, plus, together with, as well as, furthermore, moreover.

In the statement Jesus made, the basic context tell us that Jesus included baptism in the salvation plan, Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith Heb.12:2 He said "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved."  It take's faith to believe this statement that Jesus made, do you have enough faith to believe what he said?

You said the I change what Jesus said in the b) part of Mark 16:16, and you know that that's not true.  You are the one who said " Jesus didn't say, "but he that believeth not and is not water baptized shall be condenmed"  You added the water baptized to that part of the text.

Use you basic english understanding of the word "AND" then we might get a clearer understanding of what the word of God is saying.

You and I are talking about the bible.

 

[cougan]

TBIR Ben is very confused and doesnt seem to understand logic or he could be a politician in disquise. He admits that Mat 28:19 is water baptism. Yet it does not say anywhere in that verse the word water. It seems he understands it perfectly fine here based off the fact that it is something that man does to someone. This verses teaches that through water baptism you become a true disciple of Christ. That is exactly what the apostles and disciples did. You see Philip doing it in Acts 8 and Peter commanding it in Acts 10. I think Ben knows the truth but he just doesnt want to accept it. With his same logic on Mat 28:19 he would have to admit that Acts 2:38 was also water baptism that was used for the remission of sin. He has to belive that because the gift of the HS was not promised until after the water baptism in verse 39. I think he also knows that water baptism is the one baptism talked about in Eph 4:5 and Rom 6.

Ben if i talked you into jumping from an airplane and told you the follwing. He who pulls the rip cord on the right and the left will live. but he who does not pull the right one will die.

Now this is just a simple example Ben. What happens if you pull both the right and the left Ben? What happens if you dont pull the left one?

This is worded just like Mark 16:16. It should be obivous to you Ben that if you pull both the right and the left you will be saved. But if you do not pull the right you will die. I dont have to repeat the whole thing over again. That is all I have to say and I know that you understand that if you dont pull the left one you will die as well. This is very simple Ben and I know you understand it but just want to play games.

 

[The Bible is Right]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
When Jesus challenged them about John-the-baptist, He was seeking to silence them. They wanted cause to stone Jesus to DEATH (just like the incident with the prostitute---those stones were not for HER they were for JESUS). And Jesus threw them a curve (one of many)---He said, "You tell Me and then I'll tell you"---but they didn't dare answer His question. Which was basically not about baptism, but about Whom John was FOLLOWING---God or man? Because if John had been following GOD, "then why didn't you BELIEVE him?" And if they said John WASN'T of God (which is what they believed), then the people would have protested.

There's nothing in Matt21 that indicates WATER-BAPTIZED is required for salvation...

No I wasn't "worried about what He didn't say", I was "worried about what He DID say".

"He who believes and has been baptized shall be saved." Would it be true to say, "He who believes and speaks in tongues shall be saved"? Certainly it would! But it doesn't mean that everyone MUST speak in tongues. How about, "He who believes and repents, humbles himself as a child, does the will of the Father, is born again, will be saved"? That would be true too. And a verse such as that would not indicate that those other 4 things are required for salvation (although from other passages we know they are!)

You say my error is that I focus on what He did NOT say. I say your error is adding WORDS to Jesus' words. "But he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." You change it to say, "He who has disbelieved and NOT BEEN WATER-BAPTIZED shall be condemned."

Jesus simply doesn't say that. DISBELIEF is the ONLY disqualification that Jesus says. And I submit that if the water-baptism was CRITICAL enough to have been INCLUDED as a REQUIREMENT of salvation, then lack-of-it would aso have been critical enough to have been included as a DISQUALIFIER of salvation.

So that's the THING---there is no verse that says, "unless you are WATER-BAPTIZED you shall PERISH. Now, there ARE verses that say, "unless you are HUMBLED AS A CHILD (Matt18:3-4), doing the will of the Father (Matt7:21), repentant (Luke13:3), and BORN AGAIN (Jn3:3), you WILL PERISH!" Each of those verses say that---Jesus did say that lack of each OR ANY of those things WILL disqualify one from salvation. Why then can we not find a single verse, in ALL THE BIBLE, that says "unless you are WATER BAPTIZED you will PERISH!?

If Jesus thought water baptism was REQUIRED for SALVATION, would He not have said, SOMEWHERE SOMETIME that lack of it will disqualify us?

PS: Technically, it is not the lack of "humbled" or "repentant" or "doing God's will" that will disqualify us---Jesus said only belief that CAUSES "humbled/repentant/doing-God's-will/BORN-AGAIN" that saves us. ONLY BELIEF. And arguably saving-belief will CAUSE water-baptism, not vice-versa. But ya' gotta wonder why Jesus qualified salvation with ALL OF THOSE, and NOT WITH BAPTISM---Jesus just didn't consider water-baptism all-that-critical to salvation, did He?

Only belief is required for salvation. The kind of belief that receives Christ and does His will.

[/B]

You say that we are saved by belief only, take a look at&nbsp;Luke 6:<!--StartFragment -->&nbsp;<SUP>46</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
<SUP>47</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:&nbsp; Jesus here tells us that&nbsp;true faith in what he says brings salvation.&nbsp; The faith or belief that you say will save you is not real faith.&nbsp; Real faith is believing and being baptized, like Jesus said in Mark 16:16.&nbsp; The faith that will save is in verse 48 of Luke 6; He is like a man which built an house,&nbsp;and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it is founded upon a rock.&nbsp; That rock is Christ and what he told us to do to be saved, Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" is the foundation.&nbsp; John 12:48 "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that&nbsp;I&nbsp; have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.&nbsp; This is where you have a big problem, because it was Jesus who told you to be baptized to be saved, but you rejected his word, so the judgement is on you and those who believe like you.&nbsp;

 

[Ben johnson]

I don't think anyone has ever answered the question---"If a dozen people attend a revival and ALL of them receive Jesus and believe, but then the building's boiler blows up and everyone dies---before they are baptized---will any of the twelve go to Heaven?"

Simple question. What's the answer?

 

[The Bible is Right]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
I don't think anyone has ever answered the question---"If a dozen people attend a revival and ALL of them receive Jesus and believe, but then the building's boiler blows up and everyone dies---before they are baptized---will any of the twelve go to Heaven?"

Simple question. What's the answer?

Simple answer, did they obey Mark 16:16?&nbsp; And about the "if" questions, when men are truely coming to Christ, God will not allow anything to happen of that nature.&nbsp; Like Acts 8:26-39 the desert question is answered there.&nbsp; You like to bring up the "If" question to get out of obeying what Jesus said.&nbsp; If you notice in the book of Acts the christians were being persecuted everyday, but did that stop them from baptizing those who believe?&nbsp; No! Look at verse 1-17 of Acts 8.&nbsp; So your boiler blowing up does not over ride the truth of God's word.&nbsp; Who's revival was it, you must understand that everybody who preach Jesus is not of God, therefore the boiler just might blow up.&nbsp; Preach must come from the right person or place Rom. 10:14,15 so here it tells you that the right person is to preach the right gospel, so who every holds a revival must have the authority to do so.&nbsp; So if the Catholic, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Congregationalist, Baptist, Methodist, Latter Day Saints (Mormons), Adventists, Christian Scientist, Jehovah's Witnesses hold a revival you better get out of the building because it might blow up, because they have no authority to preach Christ.&nbsp; How do I know this, We can't find them in the word of God.

 

[cougan]

Ben I have answered that question many times. The bible says you must be baptized in order to be saved. God stands behind his word. You think about Uz in the OT. Uz thought he was doing something good by trying to steady the ark. But God said in his word that only the priest could touch the ark. Even though Uz was just trying to keep it from falling he paid with his life because he went against the word of God. I have also said that what if God decided to save a person in a rare circumstance where the person was going to be baptized but was killed before it happend. What does it have to do with you? You are not in that rare circumstance and there is nothing preventing you from obeying the word of God and being baptized for the forgiveness of your sins.

 

[Ben johnson]

The bible says you must be baptized in order to be saved.

Show me the verse? "In ORDER to be saved"?

Mk16:16: "He who believes and is baptized is saved." Statement of facts. It is true. But it doesn't say, "baptized in ORDER TO BE saved", does it?

Show me "water-in-order-to-be-saved", or show me "he who is NOT water-baptized is NOT saved".

If water is the vehicle through wich sins are forgiven, dipping IS the salvation event, then would that concept not be written in Scripture somewhere? Why isn't it?

 

[The Bible is Right]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Show me the verse? "In ORDER to be saved"?

Mk16:16: "He who believes and is baptized is saved." Statement of facts. It is true. But it doesn't say, "baptized in ORDER TO BE saved", does it?

Show me "water-in-order-to-be-saved", or show me "he who is NOT water-baptized is NOT saved".

If water is the vehicle through wich sins are forgiven, dipping IS the salvation event, then would that concept not be written in Scripture somewhere? Why isn't it?

We will deal with the same verse you use above.&nbsp; What would be the opposite of Mark 16:16 a) "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"?

Does the bible tell us about anyone who refused baptism of any kind? YES!

LUKE 7:29-30 "And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.

30. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God agaisnt, themselves, being not baptized of him.

You must first understand that baptism is from God Matt.21:23-27 This is why Jesus gave it to us Mark 16:16. Matt.28:18-19, Acts 2:38; 10:48; 22:16.

Please look at Acts 7:54 and compare it with Acts 2:36-38 you will see what happens to those who reject the word of God.&nbsp; Also note that when one obeys the gospel they will respond like those in Acts 2:37-41.&nbsp; Unerstand this if Jesus had not said this there would be no problem with just believing, but he did tell us to be baptized to be saved.&nbsp; Now it's up to you to obey what he said, but you must decide no one else can do it for you.&nbsp; Will you be like the Pharisees and lawyers in Luke 7:30?&nbsp; Or will you be like the people in Acts 2:41?&nbsp; Baptism is for the remission of sins Acts 2:38.

 

[Ben johnson]

30. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God agaisnt, themselves, being not baptized of him.

Baptism is the natural consequence of one who has been saved. That they refused the baptism is consistent with them "not-believing". The refusal of the baptism alone is not why they were not saved.

Acts 2:38 says, "repent and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;" I ask you---is it the WATER that remits sin, or is it THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST? To answer, I submit to you Acts 22:16: "Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name."

It is HIS NAME that remits sins. If it was the WATER ITSELF, how then do you deal with Acts 10:44-48? Are you prepared to say that "those Gentiles who were speaking with tongues and exalting God were NOT SAVED? Are you?

They had NOT YET BEEN BAPTIZED!

Because water-baptism is the natural consequence of all who believe, then everyone who believes and is baptized is saved---it becomes a non-issue. Yet, for one who thinks the water ITSELF remits sins, I do not think he/she has a complete understanding of salvation. This is why I have persisted in this discussion---it causes me concern when one does not grasp the essence of salvation.

He who believes will be saved. He who is saved will be baptized. Thus, he who believes and is baptised is saved. But he who disbelieves is not saved. An unsaved-one will likely not be baptized. But it is not the water that saves, nor is it the "dry" that condemns---it is belief that saves, it is unbelief that condemns. It is no more complicated than that.

The Gentiles of Acts 10 had not been water-baptized---but were SAVED. Were they NOT?

 

[Gabriel]

Hi Ben!

&nbsp;

I'm going to have to agree with Big Ben on this one folks.&nbsp; Baptism is a SIGN of cleansing and it is a seal of the new covenant.&nbsp; It is not the means to or necessary for salvation.

 

[cougan]

Ben you are starting to go in circles again. I have answered everything you have said in your last post before. I will say it in fewer words this time so maybe it will sink in.

I do not think that water by itself washes away your sins. Now pay close attention to following verses.

col 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,

12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with <I>Him </I>through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

Here is a plain passage that says shows your faith coupled with your baptism. Remember what I have been saying all along. God provideds the free gift fo salvation. Then man has his part. He belives that Jesus is the son of God and repents and cofesses him as Lord which are all acts of obedience. Then the person will continue on in his obedience of faith and submit himself to water baptism which also saves him. 1Pet 3:21. He wants to do all those things that put him into a saved condition. His faith is in God and knows his sins are being washed away at the point of water baptism because he knows he is being buried with Christ and being united with him. Let me put it into a simple formula for you Ben. God offers salvation - Man belives in Jesus- He repents- He confesses- He is baptized- God gives the blessing of salvation- Man remains obedient until death.

I have told you time and time again about those gentiles in acts 10and 11 that they recieved the HS directly from heaven in a like manner as the apostles did on the day of Pentacost. In fact Peter had to think back to when it happend last and he refered back to the day of Pentacost. This was a special circumstance to show that the gentiles were accepted by God for salvation just as the Jews. You will see that Peter went to tell them words by which they were to be saved but in Acts 11 you see that he had barley said anything when the HS came on them. In other words he hadnt had time to tell&nbsp;them what they needed to know to be saved yet anyways. You try and explain why the first thing that comes to Peter mind after he sees the gentiles are accepted by God is to command them to be water baptized. I will tell you. It is because it is at the point of water baptism that there sins are washed away and they become saved being a child of God. You never have explianed why every time someone was baptized in the NT they were always in a big hurry to get it done. These people in 1st century were very covinced that water baptism was part of salvation or you would read of them setting up a time to baptized so their familes could see it. All the evidence of the bible says clearly without any doubt that one must be baptized to be saved.

&nbsp;

Cougan

 

[Ben johnson]

@ Gabriel!

Hi, Cougan!!! Much of our disagreement on this issue is due to a difference in understanding. My understanding is that there is a baptism, rather an "immersion", into Christ---that is separate and distinct from "water-baptism". So I read Romans 6:1-11, and Col2:12, are not referring to water at all. In Rm6:5, it says "our old self was crucified with Him"; verse 8, "now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him."

A Christian is saved by belief; but not just any kind of belief. James makes that point in 2:19. Jesus qualifies the type of belief which saves us---it causes childlike humility (Matt18:3-4), repentance (Lk13:3), action (doing God's will Matt7:21), and it is defined as "BORN AGAIN". The "born again" heading encompasses all the other descriptions---and it best described in Gal2:20: "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the One who loved me and gave Himself up for me."

"Born-Again" is detailed in Rom6. As I just quoted, verses 5 & 8, our "old sinful nature" dies, and we are "born again new creations" (2Cor5:17). Do you follow me, Cougan? Every bit of Christianity is belief. Faith, in receiving the gift of GRACE. Salvation of grace, through faith. Belief that crucifies our old self, united in Christ's crucifixion---and as He was raised, so are we.

We are united with Christ. Do you see? THIS is the "one faith"! THIS is the "one Lord"! And, yes, this is the "one baptism". Substitute the word "immersion" here; or even substitute "unification-with-Christ"---and (I hope) that you can see it is speaking of FAITH---"united with Christ". Just because the word, "baptism", appears several times in the Word, doesn't mean it refers to water every time.

"Immersed into Christ". ONE BAPTISM. Then follows water baptism.

You put more emphasis on the water, saying: "It is because it is at the point of water baptism that their sins are washed away and they become saved being a child of God." Do you have any verse that states "their sins are washed away AT WATER-BAPTISM"? Now, please help me to understand something? If "sins are washed away" ONLY at dipping, surely you agree that we-Christians do still sin---does that "washing-away-at-dipping", does that enable FUTURE sins to be cleared (by proxy)? And if your answer is YES, then WHY? If the water is necessary for sin-cleansing, why ONCE and not AGAIN? And if "YES", then would you not agree that it is REPENTANCE and JESUS that enables the cleansing? I mean, for a "proxy" to exist, it must be composed of something---is it composed of FAITH?

And if your answer is NO, meaning that it is the WATER that actually WASHES AWAY sins, then you must agree that we need to be DIPPED to forgive EACH and EVERY SIN! I do not think you hold to "frequent water-baptism" for continual forgiveness.

Actually, the MECHANISM of forgiveness, seems to be only REPENTANCE: "If we CONFESS our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." That seems to be it, doesn't it, Cougan? We confess, He forgives. No water. That nicely explains how He is able to forgive future sins, committed WHILE saved, WITHOUT repetitive dippings.

The most direct description of "water-baptism", is 1Pet3: "Water-baptism now saves you as an appeal to God for a clear conscience". Do you see? The WATER is effective TOWARDS US---for OUR clear conscience! You on the other hand, believe that WATER is effective for us TOWARDS GOD---in cleansing our SIN-RECORD. Yet, Scripturally, the only thing that Scripture records as required for cleansing our SIN-RECORD, is REPENTANCE. The direction is everything, Cougan---Water is FOR US---not for God. It is for our CONSCIENCE, not for our sins in God's esteem.

You never have explianed why every time someone was baptized in the NT they were always in a big hurry to get it done.

Because there was no reason NOT to! John-the-baptist started it, Jesus & the Apostles carried it on. They preached, and all who "were inclined to eternal life, believed" (Acts 13:48). AND then they were baptized. But it's not the water, it's the BELIEF!

All the evidence of the bible says clearly without any doubt that one must be baptized to be saved.

Can you please show me the verse? The best you can do, is Acts 2:38: "repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

You can give me verses like Mark 16:16, "he who has believed and been baptized shall be saved". I can give you verses that say, "they believed and spoke in tongues"---but what I NEED, to believe in "water-baptism-part-of-salvation, is a verse that says, "he who is NOT water-baptized is CONDEMNED.

Or, "be water-baptized TO BE SAVED.

One or the other---can ya' do it???