We can fall...

[PeaceB]

I don't recall saying anything about Orthodox bishops in particular.

Well who does it apply to? Catholic popes and bishops can go to hell just like everyone else, and those that do are farther from God than the saints.

 

[amariselle]

Well who does it apply to? Popes can go to hell just like everyone else, and those that do are farther from God than the saints.

As the Scriptures say, we are all "brethren", and so we should not elevate ourselves or anyone else to a position of authority or governance over others.

Among us it must be different.

 

[PeaceB]

As the Scriptures say, we are all "brethren", and so we should not elevate ourselves or anyone else to a position of authority or governance over others.

Among us it must be different.

That's nice, but we were discussing your statement that Bishops are "closer to God" than everyone else. No church that I am aware of teaches that. Did you misspeak when you wrote that?

As for the question of authority, do you agree that the Apostles had authority over other members of the church, when the Apostles walked the Earth?

 

[amariselle]

That's nice, but we were discussing your statement that Bishops are "closer to God" than everyone else. No church that I am aware of teaches that. Did you misspeak when you wrote that?

As for the question of authority, do you agree that the Apostles had authority over other members of the church, when the Apostles walked the Earth?

What exactly is meant by calling someone "Holy Father"? Or "Vicar of Christ?" Or giving him/acknowledging that he has supreme authority over the Church?

Where can we find this modeled anywhere in Scripture?

 

[TheSeabass]

Jesus died for all our sins - past, present, and future.

Hebrews 9:2 Christ died for the sins of every man yet every man will not be saved because all sins of man are not unconditionally forgiven. If the Christian does not repent of his sins he will for a certainty fall and be lost.

When we becoming born spiritually, we our adopted into God's family. Do you also believe that we can become un-adopted? Adoption is also a one time event.

(Numbers 14:12) God disinherited His own in the OT and God will deny/disown/refuse/reject the Christian in the NT if the Christian denys God, (2 Timothy 2:12)

Do we have any biblical examples of someone losing their salvation and then regaining it? Every example we have of someone coming to faith and being spiritually born is of someone who had never previously had faith.

The prodigal was spiritually alive, spiritually died then was "alive again".
Simon in Acts 8.
Peter

The "never really saved" is not valid here. If one attended school passing from 1st grade to 12th grade yet dropped out before graduating, how does his dropping out (falling away) prove he was never really a student, was never really enrolled, never really passed a grade, never really took a test?

 

[amariselle]

25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.

26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;

27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. - Matthew 29:25-28

46 Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.

47 And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,

48 And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great. - Luke 9:46-48


1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. - Matthew 23:1-12

 

[Tree of Life]

If we can't fall away, there would be no reason to write epistles to the Churches warning them.

Falling away and into what seems pretty clear here.

1Ti 3:6
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

1Ti 3:7
Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Jas 5:12
But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.


Not to mention having to leave out the 'candles of whole Churches' being put out in Revelation.

We can and we do fall, all the time. We pick ourselves up, ask forgiveness and keep going.

We confess to God, and straighten our path at every opportunity.

Forgive me...

Certainly members of the visible church can and do fall away.

This does not mean that those who are truly saved can lose their salvation.

 

[TheSeabass]

Certainly members of the visible church can and do fall away.

This does not mean that those who are truly saved can lose their salvation.

You are making a distinction where there is none. Members of the church are the saved. There is no such thing as saved but not a member of the church for salvation is only found within the church, the body of Christ.

 

[Tree of Life]

You are making a distinction where there is none. Members of the church are the saved.

That sounds naive and unbiblical to me. Many who profess the faith and who are members of churches are not truly saved. Matthew 7:21-23.

 

[TheSeabass]

That sounds naive and unbiblical to me. Many who profess the faith and who are members of churches are not truly saved. Matthew 7:21-23.

Those in Matthew 7:22 were not members of the church for they were never saved, Christ never knew them. Secondly, the church did not yet exist at that time.

 

[Tree of Life]

Those in Matthew 7:22 were not members of the church for they were never saved, Christ never knew them. Secondly, the church did not yet exist at that time.

Jesus is speaking about what the future judgment is going to be like. This comes after the church age.

Those who call Jesus Lord, who preach in his name, who cast out demons, and who do mighty works in his name were never members of the visible church? How do you know?

 

[TheSeabass]

Jesus is speaking about what the future judgment is going to be like. This comes after the church age.

Those who call Jesus Lord, who preach in his name, who cast out demons, and who do mighty works in his name were never members of the visible church? How do you know?

I know for Christ said He never knew them, they were never of His disciples, they were workers of iniquity not righteousness.
And again,the church did not come into existence until Acts 2 on Pentecost.

 

[Tree of Life]

I know for Christ said He never knew them, they were never of His disciples, they were workers of iniquity not righteousness.

He will say that he never knew them on the day of judgement. This leaves plenty of time for the church to form. Jesus hasn't come back yet, unless I'm mistaken.

So you think that these words could not possibly apply to someone who is a member of First Baptist Church in Plainsville, Ohio?

Do you know for certain that every person in the local fellowship that you're part of is truly saved?

 

[Rescued One]

Sheep follow their shepherd and heed all his warnings.

John 10
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

John 5
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1 John 3
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

 

[PeaceB]

What exactly is meant by calling someone "Holy Father"? Or "Vicar of Christ?" Or giving him/acknowledging that he has supreme authority over the Church?

Where can we find this modeled anywhere in Scripture?

Your questions can be answered by reading the following articles:
Why is the pope called the "Holy Father" instead of just "Father"? | Catholic Answers
Peter and the Papacy | Catholic Answers
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Pope
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Vicar of Christ

Now if we could get back to the topic, none of those terms is used to suggest or imply that the pope is necessarily closer to god than you or me, and as I noted before, I am unaware of any church that teaches such a thing. Nobody else here seems to be aware of such of a thing either, but if you have an official statement from a Church official that you believes teaches that, I will be glad to have a look at it.

Do you wish to rescind your statement that anyone teaches that bishops are "closer to God" than everyone else?

 

[amariselle]

Your questions can be answered by reading the following articles:
Why is the pope called the "Holy Father" instead of just "Father"? | Catholic Answers
Peter and the Papacy | Catholic Answers
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Pope
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Vicar of Christ

Now if we could get back to the topic, none of those terms is used to suggest or imply that the pope is necessarily closer to god than you or me, and as I noted before, I am unaware of any church that teaches such a thing. Nobody else here seems to be aware of such of a thing either, but if you have an official statement from a Church official that you believes teaches that, I will be glad to have a look at it.

Do you wish to rescind your statement that anyone teaches that bishops are "closer to God" than everyone else?

No. I do in fact believe that the very office of Pope and the hierarchy in the Catholic Church indicates otherwise.

How can one man alone, above and separate from all others, be seen as Christ's representative on earth and not be closer to God?

I think it is completely obvious that thousands of people see the Pope as the closest person to God on earth. If you don't believe that, that's fine, but that does not mean no one does. Just watch the reaction of the crowds when he makes an appearance somewhere. There should be no such office, no such celebrity status in the Church.

So, I'll stand by what I said.

 

[PeaceB]

No. I do in fact believe that the very office of Pope and the hierarchy in the Catholic Church indicates otherwise.

How can one man alone, above and separate from all others, be seen as Christ's representative on earth and not be closer to God?

Because Popes can be in a state of mortal sin and go to hell like everyone else. They can even renounce the faith altogether. And people in a state of mortal sin and in hell are a lot farther from God than people who are in a state of grace and in Heaven.

I think it is completely obvious that thousands of people see the Pope as the closest person to God on earth. If you don't believe that, that's fine, but that does not mean no one does. Just watch the reaction of the crowds when he makes an appearance somewhere. There should be no such office, no such celebrity status in the Church.

So, I'll stand by what I said.

There are people all over the Earth who believe all sorts of untrue things. That does not make them valid.

I agree with you that there is too much "celebrity fanfare" surrounding the pope. On the other hand, undue media attention and so-forth can be turned around and used for good purposes, such as proclaiming the gospel. If the world has made the pope a celebrity, then the right thing for him to do is to use that celebrity to try to bring people to Christ, in much the same way that some other celebrities like Tim Tebow do. If he simply basks in celebrity for its own sake and for his own pleasure, then he loses his reward in Heaven.

People get excited to see many people such as music artists, sports stars, etc. Doesn't Joel Osteen packs in 50,000 or so people every Sunday? That does not have to mean that the people who want to see them think that they are closer to God. Maybe they like sports. Maybe they like his sermons, or maybe they think that the are interesting or good people to meet. When the Pope visited DC a few years back I was among the people who wanted to see him, for example, but I do not believe that because he is pope that makes him closer to God than anybody else.

I think part of the problem that many people have with the Catholic hierarchy, is that they view power and authority within the Church in the same manner as they view power and authority in the secular world. But the pope is not given authority so that he can lord over people. He has power in order to be a servant. Any pope who abuses that power to serve himself, may end up in hell just like the rest of us. And any pope who puts that power good end, by the grace of God, may end up a saint. Just like the rest of us.

 

[FenderTL5]

No. I do in fact believe that the very office of Pope and the hierarchy in the Catholic Church indicates otherwise.

How can one man alone, above and separate from all others, be seen as Christ's representative on earth and not be closer to God?

I think it is completely obvious that thousands of people see the Pope as the closest person to God on earth. If you don't believe that, that's fine, but that does not mean no one does. Just watch the reaction of the crowds when he makes an appearance somewhere. There should be no such office, no such celebrity status in the Church.

So, I'll stand by what I said.

Just curious, do you hold the same opinion of the president of the Southern Baptist Convention? or the heads of other faith groups? (I don't know which group you are associated with)

 

[amariselle]

Because Popes can be in a state of mortal sin and go to hell like everyone else. They can even renounce the faith altogether. And people in a state of mortal sin and in hell are a lot farther from God than people who are in a state of grace and in Heaven.

There are people all over the Earth who believe all sorts of untrue things. That does not make them valid.

I agree with you that there is too much "celebrity fanfare" surrounding the pope. On the other hand, undue media attention and so-forth can be turned around and used for good purposes, such as proclaiming the gospel. If the world has made the pope a celebrity, then the right thing for him to do is to use that celebrity to try to bring people to Christ, in much the same way that some other celebrities like Tim Tebow do. If he simply basks in celebrity for its own sake and for his own pleasure, then he loses his reward in Heaven.

People get excited to see many people such as music artists, sports stars, etc. Doesn't Joel Osteen packs in 50,000 or so people every Sunday? That does not have to mean that the people who want to see them think that they are closer to God. Maybe they like sports. Maybe they like his sermons, or maybe they think that the are interesting or good people to meet. When the Pope visited DC a few years back I was among the people who wanted to see him, for example, but I do not believe that because he is pope that makes him closer to God than anybody else.

I think part of the problem that many people have with the Catholic hierarchy, is that they view power and authority within the Church in the same manner as they view power and authority in the secular world. But the pope is not given authority so that he can lord over people. He has power in order to be a servant. Any pope who abuses that power to serve himself, may end up in hell just like the rest of us. And any pope who puts that power good end, by the grace of God, may end up a saint. Just like the rest of us.

That's all well and good, but if Christ had wanted such a heirchy in His Church, surely He would have taught as much, instead of doing the opposite.

As for Joel Osteen....health and wealth prosperity preachers that fill arenas with their version of the Gospel are yet another issue. I don't agree with that either.

Sorry, I'll watch the video later perhaps. The internet is not working at my house right now, so I need to use data.

 

[amariselle]

Just curious, do you hold the same opinion of the president of the Southern Baptist Convention? or the heads of other faith groups? (I don't know which group you are associated with)

I'm not too familiar with who that is or what that entails, but if similar things are believed about him as about the Pope, then yes.

I only wish to remember Jesus' words in regard to how we are all brethren.