We can fall...

[amariselle]

13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

Why were the Jews "cut off"?

 

[PeaceB]

Why were the Jews "cut off"?

Because of their unbelief.

Why will some gentiles, "who stand fast through faith" be cut off?

 

[amariselle]

Because of their unbelief.

Yes. And the Gentiles were grafted in because of faith (belief). They did not work their way in.

 

[PeaceB]

Yes. And the Gentiles were grafted in because of faith (belief). They did not work their way in.

Are you under the impression that I believe people work their way in?

 

[amariselle]

Because of their unbelief. Why will some gentiles, "who stand fast through faith" be cut off?

Well, if we're in His "kindness"/"grafted in" because of faith/belief, we would "continue in His kindness" through faith.

Unbelief, which is why the Jews were "cut off" would likewise be the reason anyone else is "cut off."

Faith, not works.

 

[amariselle]

Are you under the impression that I believe people work their way in?

Do you believe in faith alone?

 

[Apex]

do little children deserve to eat brimstone too?

Depends if God deems them guilty.

 

[PeaceB]

Well, if we're in His "kindness"/"grafted in" because of faith/belief, we would "continue in His kindness" through faith.

Unbelief, which is why the Jews were "cut off" would likewise be the reason anyone else is "cut off."

Faith, not works.

Note that it is the same people who were "grafted in" because of their faith, that can also be "cut off" (presumably if they stop having faith). Do you agree that a person who has saving faith (a person who was grafted in because of faith) can fall from grace if he stops having faith (becoming an atheist, for example)?

Do you believe in faith alone?

If it is defined in a way that is consistent with the Catholic Faith. For example,

General Audience of 19 November 2008: Saint Paul (13). The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith | BENEDICT XVI

Against this cultural pressure, which not only threatened the Israelite identity but also the faith in the one God and in his promises, it was necessary to create a wall of distinction, a shield of defence to protect the precious heritage of the faith; this wall consisted precisely in the Judaic observances and prescriptions. Paul, who had learned these observances in their role of defending God's gift, of the inheritance of faith in one God alone, saw this identity threatened by the freedom of the Christians this is why he persecuted them. At the moment of his encounter with the Risen One he understood that with Christ's Resurrection the situation had changed radically. With Christ, the God of Israel, the one true God, became the God of all peoples. The wall as he says in his Letter to the Ephesians between Israel and the Gentiles, was no longer necessary: it is Christ who protects us from polytheism and all of its deviations; it is Christ who unites us with and in the one God; it is Christ who guarantees our true identity within the diversity of cultures. The wall is no longer necessary; our common identity within the diversity of cultures is Christ, and it is he who makes us just. Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices. Further observances are no longer necessary. For this reason Luther's phrase: "faith alone" is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).

Paul knows that in the twofold love of God and neighbour the whole of the Law is present and carried out. Thus in communion with Christ, in a faith that creates charity, the entire Law is fulfilled. We become just by entering into communion with Christ who is Love. We shall see the same thing in the Gospel next Sunday, the Solemnity of Christ the King. It is the Gospel of the judge whose sole criterion is love. What he asks is only this: Did you visit me when I was sick? When I was in prison? Did you give me food to eat when I was hungry, did you clothe me when I was naked? And thus justice is decided in charity. Thus, at the end of this Gospel we can almost say: love alone, charity alone. But there is no contradiction between this Gospel and St Paul. It is the same vision, according to which communion with Christ, faith in Christ, creates charity. And charity is the fulfilment of communion with Christ. Thus, we are just by being united with him and in no other way.

At the end, we can only pray the Lord that he help us to believe; really believe. Believing thus becomes life, unity with Christ, the transformation of our life. And thus, transformed by his love, by the love of God and neighbour, we can truly be just in God's eyes.​

 

[Apex]

To say that God remits all sins is licentiousness.

This single sentence is shocking to me. Jesus paid the ransom for my sinful life in full with his own righteous life (Mark 10:45). To live contrary to Jesus' love command (1 John 3:23-24) is what leads to both legalism and licentiousness.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

If we can't fall away, there would be no reason to write epistles to the Churches warning them.

Falling away and into what seems pretty clear here.

1Ti 3:6
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

1Ti 3:7
Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Jas 5:12
But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.


Not to mention having to leave out the 'candles of whole Churches' being put out in Revelation.

We can and we do fall, all the time. We pick ourselves up, ask forgiveness and keep going.

We confess to God, and straighten our path at every opportunity.

Forgive me...

Do parents warn their children to avoid certain activities? Of course they do. They "instruct" their children. Does that mean they are threatening to abandon their children? God forbid.

When parents warn children, are they saying, "Don't climb that tree. You could fall and break your leg, and I don't want you to get hurt"? Or, are they saying, "Don't climb that tree. You could fall, and I will disown you"?

 

[PeaceB]

Do parents warn their children to avoid certain activities? Of course they do. They "instruct" their children. Does that mean they are threatening to abandon their children? God forbid.

When parents warn children, are they saying, "Don't climb that tree. You could fall and break your leg, and I don't want you to get hurt"? Or, are they saying, "Don't climb that tree. You could fall, and I will disown you"?

Yeah, except here the parent says "If you don't stop being a prostitute/drug dealer/inappropriate content actor I am cutting you out of my will."

 

[Noxot]

Do parents warn their children to avoid certain activities? Of course they do. They "instruct" their children. Does that mean they are threatening to abandon their children? God forbid.

When parents warn children, are they saying, "Don't climb that tree. You could fall and break your leg, and I don't want you to get hurt"? Or, are they saying, "Don't climb that tree. You could fall, and I will disown you"?

some people have climbed trees and fallen to their dead

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

From God's perspective, my only concern, every sin except rejecting the
Holy Spirit is forgiven. Only humans are in the dark and have to deal
with "this" then "that". God already knows the end result for everyone.

The letters to the churches are loaded with human centered advice
that Jesus would never repeat. They are included for historical reference.

That is whole interesting topic just by itself. Can Christians commit that unforgivable sin?

Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

The Unpardonable Sin

The evangelist stood with both arms raised, giving emphasis to his impassioned plea. With eyes riveted upon his hearers he urged the question with utmost solemnity, "Did you know there is a sin so great, so devastating in its awfulness, that even the great mercy of God cannot overlook it, and the shed blood of Jesus Christ cannot wash it away? A sin that can never be forgiven - an unpardonable sin! Jesus warned that it could happen. 'Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith so ever they shall blaspheme: but he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost has never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation' (Mk. 3:28-29). Who would commit such a dreadful sin, subject themselves to such an appalling fate - to lose all hope of forgiveness and salvation, to suffer for ever the damnation of hellfire? ..........
What is the unpardonable sin?
Is there anyone reading these lines who has committed it, or might be in danger of committing it? The confusion on this subject is due largely to a failure to harmonize all scriptures. Men are so prone to blindly accept any error in either translation or interpretation, even though many other plain statements of the Word of God affirm the exact opposite. We need to search the scriptures prayerfully and reverently, on bended knee beseeching the blessed Holy Spirit of truth for illumination and understanding...........
What is the sin against the Holy Spirit?
In the third chapter of Mark, we have the parallel passage to the text we just read in Matthew, the same record of these men coming around Jesus when they saw Him perform His mighty miracle for the poor man who could neither see nor speak. In order to keep the people from believing Jesus, they said the miracle was performed by the power of Satan. Notice the words of Jesus in verses 28-30: "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith so ever they shall blaspheme. But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost has never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: BECAUSE THEY SAID, HE HAS AN UNCLEAN SPIRIT." Ah - now there's a clue - the Pharisees' opposition to Jesus was not a spur of the moment, hotheaded fit of pique. These men knew what they were doing. Their schemes against Jesus were deliberate, calculated.
A leading Pharisee, Nicodemus, once confided to Jesus, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him" (Jn. 3:2).

 

[ubicaritas]

The "letters" are also the inspired word of God.

Many of those epistles are of dubious apostolicity. This is not some modern liberal belief, either, it has been known about since the early church. So we need to weight very carefully, what parts of the Bible we emphasize as doctrine.

Many in the early Church thought falling away lead to reprobation without possibility of forgiveness. Hebrews evidences this, but it is also evidenced in the Shepherd of Hermas as a widespread belief among Christians. The Montanist movement was defined by this, but it was eventually rejected. It's sort of strange anybody believed this at all, since Jesus told us to forgive 70x7.

 

[ubicaritas]

If you mean in the sense of a hierarchy where some are considered to be above others and closer to God, no, but if you mean in the sense of Church leadership and guidance, yes.

I know for a fact no Orthodox Christian considers a bishop to be "closer to God" than anybody else.

If you have leaders like pastors, in terms of teaching or shepherding authority, they are above others. A bishop is nothing but a pastor, one with an area of geographic administration.

 

[amariselle]

I know for a fact no Orthodox Christian considers a bishop to be "closer to God" than anybody else.

If you have leaders like pastors, in terms of teaching or shepherding authority, they are above others. A bishop is nothing but a pastor, one with an area of geographic administration.

I don't recall saying anything about Orthodox bishops in particular.

 

[amariselle]

Many of those epistles are of dubious apostolicity. This is not some modern liberal belief, either, it has been known about since the early church. So we need to weight very carefully, what parts of the Bible we emphasize as doctrine.

Many in the early Church thought falling away lead to reprobation without possibility of forgiveness. Hebrews evidences this, but it is also evidenced in the Shepherd of Hermas as a widespread belief among Christians. The Montanist movement was defined by this, but it was eventually rejected. It's sort of strange anybody believed this at all, since Jesus told us to forgive 70x7.

You can choose to look at the Bible that way. I believe it is 100% the inspired word of God, in its entirety.

God bless.

 

[SkyWriting]

That is whole interesting topic just by itself. Can Christians commit that unforgivable sin?

I guess Adam did.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I guess Adam did.

There were no "Christians" until the New Testament. However according the Peter, Jesus went to preach to him and all the other dead. Pretty interesting:

1Peter 3:
18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body, but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which He also went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ark was being built.

1Peter4:
4 Because of this, they consider it strange of you not to plunge with them into the same flood of reckless indiscretion, and they heap abuse on you. 5 But they will have to give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 That is why the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged as men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
7 The end of all things is near.

 

[Noxot]

it seems that Christ is the fulfillment of the law and so like the law that has it's purpose Christ too must be revealed to show the full standards of God. he certainly revealed himself in many before the word christian was invented.

I count myself among those dead and sometimes disobedient. to me it feels like my spiritual past, I in some way am those people.