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Featured We can fall...

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by OrthodoxyUSA, Aug 11, 2017.

  1. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If we can't fall away, there would be no reason to write epistles to the Churches warning them.

    Falling away and into what seems pretty clear here.

    1Ti 3:6
    Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

    1Ti 3:7
    Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

    Jas 5:12
    But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.


    Not to mention having to leave out the 'candles of whole Churches' being put out in Revelation.

    We can and we do fall, all the time. We pick ourselves up, ask forgiveness and keep going.

    We confess to God, and straighten our path at every opportunity.

    Forgive me...
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
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  2. Dave-W

    Dave-W Our six grandchildren Supporter

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    Indeed we can fall away. But you are using the wrong scriptures to demonstrate it. (a common problem)

    How about this passage:

    Hebrews 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.​
     
  3. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I had a huge list... this one included. People were having a hard time digesting it all because they were attempting to look at the context of each. Rightly so... So, I paired it down.

    Forgive me...
     
  4. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting Berean through and through Supporter

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    From God's perspective, my only concern, every sin except rejecting the
    Holy Spirit is forgiven. Only humans are in the dark and have to deal
    with "this" then "that". God already knows the end result for everyone.

    <staff edited>
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 18, 2017
  5. FenderTL5

    FenderTL5 Well-Known Member

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    I punish my body and enslave it, so that after proclaiming to others I myself should not be disqualified.

    Strive for peace with all men and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

    See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” spring up and cause trouble, and by it the many become defiled; that no one be immoral or irreligious like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.
     
  6. Dave-W

    Dave-W Our six grandchildren Supporter

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    Let me modify your verbiage a bit:

    "Every sin except blaspheming the Holy Spirit can be forgiven." ​

    No sin is forgiven without repentance, and rejecting the Holy Spirit is NOT the same as blaspheming.
     
  7. Dave-W

    Dave-W Our six grandchildren Supporter

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    I have a serious problem with this approach to Scripture.
     
  8. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting Berean through and through Supporter

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    I understand fully. I held a hard line view for 20 years.
    Then a few things came up that seemed as if men and women
    were not being treated equally. That's not legal.

    A. In everything then,
    B. do unto others
    C. as you would have them do unto you.


    That's pretty clear on equality for.............which topics?
     
  9. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    "...fallen from grace..." Gal 5
    "....if ye do these things, ye shall never fall," 2 Peter 1:10
    "..lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." Hebrews 4:11
    "..take heed lest he fall." 1 Corinthians 10:12
     
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  10. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    It's a big Bible:

    If we disown him
    He must disown us
    If we are faithless
    He remains faithful
    For he cannot disown himself
    2tim2:12&13
     
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  11. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting Berean through and through Supporter

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    The letters are filled with human based logic and ideas.
    Ideas and concepts Jesus does not ever mention.
     
  12. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    They were from Christ by inspiration.
     
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  13. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    The "letters" are also the inspired word of God.
     
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  14. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    I know I said yesterday that I would share my thoughts on these verses, so here is my reply. :)

    I'll start with 1 Timothy 3:

    1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

    So we see that Paul is addressing a specific leadership role in the Church, and he commends those who desire to be a bishop.

    2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

    Requirements for the family life of one who desires to be bishop, as well as his teaching ability.

    3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

    He must not be a drunkard, or abusive, greedy or contentious, but must be patient and kind.

    4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

    He must manage his own household well.

    5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

    So far Paul has been specifying what is required of someone who seeks to be a bishop in the Church. They must be above reproach and be excellent examples, witnesses and ministers for Christ. If they can't take care of their own family and be good leaders in their home, they cannot be good leaders in the Church.

    6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

    Above is one of the verses you referred to. Paul here writes that one who desires to be a bishop must not be new to the faith, lest they fall into pride because of their position as leader. Pride can and does destroy lives and ministries. Someone who is a leader in the Church must be humble, as Jesus Himself said to His disciples. There is to be no "lording it over one another" or arguing who is greatest among Christians, for we are all "brethren." This verse is not speaking about loss of salvation, but how Satan can and often does play on our sense of pride, which is something we can all fall into if we're not careful, especially when we are given authority over others.

    7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

    This is the second verse you referred to. This verse is dealing with the witness of the life of one who is a bishop in the Church. Paul is here referring to the example the bishop sets by his life, and that he must have a good reputation among others, so as not to bring reproach on himself. Think of how often leaders in the Church have done just that and how damaging it can be and often is to the Gospel. The office of bishop is a grave responsibility, and the one holding this position must be a good example and a good witness to the faith, otherwise the devil will use any reproach against him to trap him and damage the cause of Christ. This is also not speaking about losing salvation.

    8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

    9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

    10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

    These verses are now speaking of the requirements for being a deacon, which, again are very similar and deal with being a good witness and example in the Church.

    11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

    Requirements for a deacon's wife.

    12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

    And requirements for their family life.

    13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    If they meet all these standards as leaders, they can be sure they are good witnesses and examples in the faith and that they boldly proclaim the faith in their lives.

    14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:

    15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

    16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    So, nowhere in this chapter is Paul referring to loss of salvation, but rather to the proper and righteous requirements for leaders in the Church and their families, because such leadership roles come with great responsibility. The abuse of such roles, can ultimately severely damage the faith of many, which is why Paul emphasizes the importance of the example Church leaders set by their own lives.

    Here is James 5:

    First of all, we need to understand that James is indeed written to believers, hence he addresses them as "brethern" (that is, brothers and sisters in Christ)

    1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.

    2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.

    3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

    4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.

    5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.

    6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

    The above is condemnation for those who glory in earthly wealth and prosperity, and have by such things become corrupt.

    In the above verses. James is continuing to address "friendship with the world". (James 4:4) As we know from Scripture, we have been called out of the world, (John 15:19), and so we should live separate from it and not living like those who are "of the world" and do not know Christ. Most important to remember, which James is also dealing with, is that the world needs to see our faith lived out, so that they will give glory to God and may also turn to Him in faith. We are to be a witness for Christ is this dark world. (Matthew 5:14-16) This was also what James was referring to when wrote those so often misunderstood words, "faith without works is dead." (James 2:14-26) He was writing to believers (brethren) already saved, exhorting them to be good witnesses in the world by living out their faith.

    7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

    8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

    9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

    The Lord is returning soon and we need to be vigilant. We do not want to be found hating one another. (Again, written to "brethren")

    10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

    11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

    We endure in suffering, with patience and hope in the Lord. (As the prophets did)

    12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

    The above verse is the one you referred to. Here James writes that we are not to make oaths, but simply say yes or no. Oaths are serious and binding and if we make such an oath and fail in keeping it, we indeed bring reproach and condemnation on ourselves. But loss of salvation? I don't see any reason to believe that is what this verse, in context, is saying. Rather, I believe this verse is telling us not to bind ourselves by oaths God does not require and which we cannot keep. When we fail in our foolish oath, we will indeed bring condemnation on ourselves, but not a loss of salvation, rather, the reproach of all those who know we made such an oath and did not keep it, or condemnation within ourselves before God, because we did not keep the oath we made before Him. Again, such is a terrible witness to the world and can also gravely hinder us in our walk and relationship with Christ.

    13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

    14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

    15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

    16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

    17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

    18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

    Here James exhorts and instructs the brethren (believers) in ministry and prayer in the Church.

    19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

    20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

    James writes in these last verses about correcting one another. If someone goes astray, they must be corrected.

    In regard to "erring from the truth", the truth is Jesus Christ. He alone saves souls from death, so indeed, if someone is to reject Christ, they would not be saved. We need to look out for one another in the body of Christ.

    I truly believe that the only way to not be saved is if we reject Christ's sacrifice for sin. I do not believe that any of the epistles ever say that we can mess up, make mistakes and therefore somehow lose salvation. We all do stumble in life, even after being saved, because in our flesh dwells no good thing and the flesh wars against the Spirit. We do not lose our salvation when we're not perfect in the flesh, however, otherwise no one could ever be saved. This is precisely why we need our Saviour.

    In summary, I do not believe any of the verses you mentioned are dealing with the loss of salvation, but rather righteous living in the eyes of the Church and/or the world.

    God bless.
     
  15. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you have a Bishop? Or does it no longer apply?

    Forgive me...
     
  16. JayW

    JayW Well-Known Member

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    When I study the epistles I find it helpful to keep in mind that they were written to particular people in a particular time facing particular challenges. That doesn't mitigate their importance as the inspired word of God, but rather, provides context with which they should be understood. For example, 1 Timothy 5:23 shows Paul's concern for a recurring ailment Timothy suffers. It's not a God-breathed mandate for me to dump out my glass of ice water and replace it with a Chardonnay.
     
  17. Noxot

    Noxot Supporter

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    there are tons of verses about falls.

    Rev 14:8 (YLT)
    And another messenger did follow, saying, `Fall, fall, did Babylon, the great city, because of the wine of the wrath of her whoredom she hath given to all nations to drink.
    '

    Jer 23:14-15 (YLT)
    And in prophets of Jerusalem I have seen a horrible thing, Committing adultery, and walking falsely, Yea, they strengthened the hands of evil doers, So that they have not turned back Each from his wickedness, They have been to me--all of them--as Sodom, And its inhabitants as Gomorrah. Therefore, thus said Jehovah of Hosts, concerning the prophets: Lo, I am causing them to eat wormwood, And have caused them to drink water of gall, For, from prophets of Jerusalem Hath profanity gone forth to all the land.

    Rev 8:10-11 (YLT)
    And the third messenger did sound, and there fell out of the heaven a great star, burning as a lamp, and it did fall upon the third of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters, and the name of the star is called Wormwood, and the third of the waters doth become wormwood, and many of the men did die of the waters, because they were made bitter.
     
  18. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Would you say that these (not just the ones you posted) support loss of salvation?

    Forgive me...
     
  19. Noxot

    Noxot Supporter

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    sure. if you are not alive then you are dead.
     
  20. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    If you mean in the sense of a hierarchy where some are considered to be above others and closer to God, no, but if you mean in the sense of Church leadership and guidance, yes.

    There should obviously be structure in the Church, based on spiritual maturity and enabling us to encourage and support one another. However, I do not believe that it should ever become the case that certain people are put on any kind of pedestal in the Church or put themselves on a pedestal. Jesus plainly taught His disciples that it was not to be like that among them, and certainly His words to them still hold true for us today, we should not elevate people to some higher status, we are all "brethren."

    Matthew 20:25-28
    Matthew 23:1-15
     
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