We can fall...

[SkyWriting]

When I study the epistles I find it helpful to keep in mind that they were written to particular people in a particular time facing particular challenges. That doesn't mitigate their importance as the inspired word of God, but rather, provides context with which they should be understood. For example, 1 Timothy 5:23 shows Paul's concern for a recurring ailment Timothy suffers. It's not a God-breathed mandate for me to dump out my glass of ice water and replace it with a Chardonnay.

"God-breathed" is believed to be a word Paul invented becasue
it was only used one time. No basic tenets of Christianity are
found in one place, in one book, by one author.

 

[SkyWriting]

I'm just wondering, because Scripture says we are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believe and are saved. (Ephesians 1:12-14)
Can it be possible to break the "seal" of the Holy Spirit?

It is not. Only humans deal with "time".

 

[amariselle]

It is not. Only humans deal with "time".

Agreed. Many do believe we can lose salvation though. They consider having confidence in our salvation to be "easy believeism", encouraging others to celebrate sin etc.

 

[SkyWriting]

Agreed. Many do believe we can lose salvation though. They consider having confidence in our salvation to be "easy believeism", encouraging others to celebrate sin etc.

I agree it does relax all false standards.
It allows people to drink wine, be slothful watching TV, and many other horrors.
I watch "Game of Thrones" and fail to feed the hungry while doing it.
It's got nudity even. Butts, and more.

 

[Noxot]

I'm just wondering, because Scripture says we are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believe and are saved. (Ephesians 1:12-14)

Can it be possible to break the "seal" of the Holy Spirit?

would not the sin against the Holy Spirit be the same thing as breaking the seal? what kind of seal is this? a virgin is a kind of seal but she can become a harlot. a letter has a seal on it but when you open it it is broken.

can the image of God be disfigured? I would say only in a certain sense. I get your line of reasoning and I think it is God given. one thing I have noticed is God will give an overwhelming amount of wisdom to his Christians, so much so that sometimes we can't articulate it to the extreme that the Holy Spirit desires it to be had. there really is a whole lot to be said about this topic and from various points of view that are ultimately united in God.

 

[amariselle]

would not the sin against the Holy Spirit be the same thing as breaking the seal? what kind of seal is this? a virgin is a kind of seal but she can become a harlot. a letter has a seal on it but when you open it it is broken.

can the image of God be disfigured? I would say only in a certain sense. I get your line of reasoning and I think it is God given. one thing I have noticed is God will give an overwhelming amount of wisdom to his Christians, so much so that sometimes we can't articulate it to the extreme that the Holy Spirit desires it to be had. there really is a whole lot to be said about this topic and from various points of view that are ultimately united in God.

Yes. God's ways and thoughts are infinitely higher and above ours.

It would seem to me, however, that when the Holy Spirit "seals" someone, they are very much secure.

 

[amariselle]

I agree it does relax all false standards.
It allows people to drink wine, be slothful watching TV, and many other horrors.
I watch "Game of Thrones" and fail to feed the hungry while doing it.
It's got nudity even. Butts, and more.

I've never watched that show, but of course, that seems to be par for the course as far as entertainment today goes.

 

[Anguspure]

If we can't fall away, there would be no reason to write epistles to the Churches warning them.

Falling away and into what seems pretty clear here.

1Ti 3:6
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

1Ti 3:7
Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Jas 5:12
But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.


Not to mention having to leave out the 'candles of whole Churches' being put out in Revelation.

We can and we do fall, all the time. We pick ourselves up, ask forgiveness and keep going.

We confess to God, and straighten our path at every opportunity.

Forgive me...

Yes, we must all want to remain in relationship and He won't force Himself on us.
It is the cycle of the beatitudes, the way.
We recognise our poverty of spirit without Him, we mourn, we are meek and allow ourselves to be lead in the way, we hunger and thirst for righteousness. Then we continue on the way being merciful, we keep our hearts from corruption, we are peacemakers and when we face persecution we identify with Him in His suffering.

 

[Noxot]

Yes. God's ways and thoughts are infinitely higher and above ours.

It would seem to me, however, that when the Holy Spirit "seals" someone, they are very much secure.

it must be a God kind of seal then lol

game of thrones can be completely avoided and i'm sure most of us can find something better but it does have some good things in it that in fact reflect upon the very truths we talk about and reflect some symbols in the NT concerning salvation.

Spoiler: GOT spiritual example

Matt 5:30 (YLT)
`And, if thy right hand doth cause thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.

 

[Winken]

If we can't fall away, there would be no reason to write epistles to the Churches warning them.

Falling away and into what seems pretty clear here.

1Ti 3:6
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

1Ti 3:7
Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Jas 5:12
But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.


Not to mention having to leave out the 'candles of whole Churches' being put out in Revelation.

We can and we do fall, all the time. We pick ourselves up, ask forgiveness and keep going.

We confess to God, and straighten our path at every opportunity.

Forgive me...

Romans 10:8-13, Romans 8:1, Ephesians 2:8-9, John 5:24, John 3:16-17.

 

[Apex]

okay but you are talking to someone that was just beaten up by two thugs because they wanted to rob him and they did a number on me. you are unrighteous if you say your children are still saved when they persecute innocent people.

I'm not saying those thugs or any other sinner "deserves" salvation. I'm saying we all deserve to have have God's wrath poured out fully on us. However, Jesus' death on the cross atones for all our sins. This includes any future sins that we have not committed yet. If this were not true, we would need to perceptually be born anew over and over.

Colossians 2:13-14
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

We are forgiven - past tense! This isn't a process or partial, it is full and total. The debt is entirely gone. There is nothing to take back.

 

[PeaceB]

It would seem to me, however, that when the Holy Spirit "seals" someone, they are very much secure.

If you become an atheist tomorrow and remain so for the rest of your life, will you go to heaven?

 

[amariselle]

If you become an atheist tomorrow and remain so for the rest of your life, will you go to heaven?

I can't even imagine it. Nor can I imagine what it would take to break the seal of the Holy Spirit. Can you?

 

[PeaceB]

I can't even imagine it.

Well you are not omniscient so you must admit that there is at least a small possibility of it happening (lets say a 0.00001% chance for the sake of argument).

Plenty of other Christians who loved the Lord could not imagine it either, and are now atheists. If you were to become one of these people (and I am not saying that I believe that you will) what should we say of you? That you were "never really saved in the first place"?

Nor can I imagine what it would take to break the seal of the Holy Spirit. Can you?

Does this help you?

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

 

[Noxot]

I'm not saying those thugs or any other sinner "deserves" salvation. I'm saying we all deserve to have have God's wrath poured out fully on us. However, Jesus' death on the cross atones for all our sins. This includes any future sins that we have not committed yet. If this were not true, we would need to perceptually be born anew over and over.

Colossians 2:13-14
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

We are forgiven - past tense! This isn't a process or partial, it is full and total. The debt is entirely gone. There is nothing to take back.

do little children deserve to eat brimstone too?

 

[amariselle]

Well you are not omniscient so you must admit that there is at least a small possibility of it happening (lets say a 0.00001% chance for the sake of argument).

Plenty of other Christians who loved the Lord could not imagine it either, and are now atheists. If you were to become one of these people (and I am not saying that I believe that you will) what should we say of you? That you were "never really saved in the first place"?


Does this help you?

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

I've addressed that "deliberate"/willful sin before. It doesn't mean what you may think.

 

[dqhall]

I'm not saying those thugs or any other sinner "deserves" salvation. I'm saying we all deserve to have have God's wrath poured out fully on us. However, Jesus' death on the cross atones for all our sins. This includes any future sins that we have not committed yet. If this were not true, we would need to perceptually be born anew over and over.

Colossians 2:13-14
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

We are forgiven - past tense! This isn't a process or partial, it is full and total. The debt is entirely gone. There is nothing to take back.

When Paul was on the road to Damascus he was not told all his sins were forgiven. He was struck blind. He must have tried to work a deal with God for Ananias to be sent to him and lay hands on Paul for Paul to be able to see again (Acts 9:17). Paul eventually realized God had forgiven his sins and those of his coworkers. That letter to the Colossians was not an open letter to all mankind granting a license for all mankind to do whatever they want and to be forgiven. To say that God remits all sins is licentiousness. There are numerous passages admonishing sinners to repent in order for their sins to be forgiven.

Jesus taught the good would be saved and the wicked will be eliminated. Matthew 13:47 (WEB) "Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a dragnet, that was cast into the sea, and gathered some fish of every kind, 48 which, when it was filled, they drew up on the beach. They sat down, and gathered the good into containers, but the bad they threw away. 49 So will it be in the end of the world. The angels will come forth, and separate the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth."

 

[PeaceB]

I've addressed that "deliberate"/willful sin before. It doesn't mean what you may think.

It may not mean what you think, either.

 

[PeaceB]

13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

 

[amariselle]

It may not mean what you think, either.

Well, that's fine. We're not going to agree, and I'm not going to argue.

God bless.