We can fall...

[PeaceB]

That's all well and good, but if Christ had wanted such a heirchy in His Church, surely He would have taught as much, instead of doing the opposite.

Well we believe that he did teach as much. You disagree, obviously.

 

[W2L]

I don't understand why folks follow a hierarchy. Read the word and follow it. Find fellowship with others who want to study the word, and walk in the spirit following the Lord who will teach us all things Himself.

 

[amariselle]

Well we believe that he did teach as much. You disagree, obviously.

I disagree because He plainly taught otherwise. As He said, we are all brethren and among us it must be different.

 

[FenderTL5]

I'm not too familiar with who that is or what that entails, but if similar things are believed about him as about the Pope, then yes.

I only wish to remember Jesus' words in regard to how we are all brethren.

the roles of bishops/presbyters and deacons with differing roles is in the scriptures. There's even instructions and qualifications. I'm not sure where you are making a distinction.

 

[amariselle]

the roles of bishops/presbyters and deacons with differing roles is in the scriptures. There's even instructions and qualifications. I'm not sure where you are making a distinction.

I have no issue with structure, as I said before. We need spiritual guidance in the body of Christ, my issue is with a formal hierarchy where certain people are put above others and are in fact considered by many to be closer to God.

We need to remember that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[PeaceB]

I have no issue with structure, as I said before. We need spiritual guidance in the body of Christ, my issue is with a formal hierarchy where certain people are put above others and are in fact considered by many to be closer to God.

We need to remember that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

Scripture teaches that God gave certain men authority over others. Scripture does not teach that the Holy Spirit guides each individual person into a proper interpretation of Scripture, and that therefore each person can rely only on his own interpretation of Scripture (or those of others that the finds acceptable) and do whatever his own conscience dictates. The vast amount of splintering that occurs and that continues to occur in the Protestant world is clear evidence of this.

 

[PeaceB]

I don't understand why folks follow a hierarchy. Read the word and follow it. Find fellowship with others who want to study the word, and walk in the spirit following the Lord who will teach us all things Himself.

We follow a hierarchy so that we can be one. When you don't have it, you end up with what you see in the Protestant world. Massive division and disunity. Go to church.

 

[W2L]

Scripture teaches that God gave certain men authority over others. Scripture does not teach that the Holy Spirit guides each individual person into a proper interpretation of Scripture, and that therefore each person can rely only on his own interpretation of Scripture (or those of others that the finds acceptable) and do whatever his own conscience dictates. The vast amount of splintering that occurs and that continues to occur in the Protestant world is clear evidence of this.

Scripture guides me and im doing well.

 

[amariselle]

Scripture teaches that God gave certain men authority over others. Scripture does not teach that the Holy Spirit guides each individual person into a proper interpretation of Scripture, and that therefore each person can rely only on his own interpretation of Scripture (or those of others that the finds acceptable) and do whatever his own conscience dictates. The vast amount of splintering that occurs and that continues to occur in the Protestant world is clear evidence of this.

You may think that there is no structure in Protestant churches, or that no one is willing to humble themselves and learn from others in matters of Scripture, spiritual maturity and faith, but you'd be wrong. We can all learn and we can and should also all remember that we can help and encourage others as well. We are a family in Christ. If you think that every single Protestant is simply going around doing "whatever his (or her) conscience dictates", you are incorrect. That is absolutely false, we know we are brothers and sisters in Christ, and that as His "body" we need each other.

Conversely, if you think there is no difference of opinion or belief among all those who call themselves Catholic, you'd also be wrong. There is every bit as much division in the Catholic Church as in Protestant denominations, it's simply less visible because the Catholic Church is more structured with their official hierarchy under the Pope. This does not mean that all Catholics think alike or even share the same beliefs on important matters, (transubstantiation for example).

People can and do think for themselves, this is a fact of life. True unity is not found in a Church hierarchy or in attempting to have any top down control in terms of a system of human beings, true unity is in Christ alone.

God bless.

 

[W2L]

We follow a hierarchy so that we can be one. When you don't have it, you end up with what you see in the Protestant world. Massive division and disunity. Go to church.

There is disunity in your own Church

And broad brushing all non catholics in such a way is wrong. Between me and you its you who are creating the disunity with your partisan Catholic beliefs.

 

[amariselle]

There is disunity in your own Church

And broad brushing all non catholics in such a way is wrong. Between me and you its you who are creating the disunity with your partisan Catholic beliefs.

I do wish people would realize that the overused dismissal of "Protestantism" due to its 33,000 or so denominations is misleading. There is every bit as much division in the Catholic Church.

 

[PeaceB]

There is disunity in your own Church

Absolutely.

And broad brushing all non catholics in such a way is wrong. Between me and you its you who are creating the disunity with your partisan Catholic beliefs.

I didn't say non-Catholics. I said Protestants.

 

[W2L]

I do wish people would realize that the overused dismissal of "Protestantism" due to its 33,000 or so denominations is misleading. There is every bit as much division in the Catholic Church.

Yes, thats truth. Pure religion is feeding widows and orphans, and keeping ourselves from being polluted by the world. Polluted religion however has made it more complicated.

 

[PeaceB]

Scripture guides me and im doing well.

I am glad that you believe that you are doing well. Lot's of people think that they are doing well, but in fact are not. And yes, this could include me too.

 

[W2L]

Absolutely.

I didn't say non-Catholics. I said Protestants.

I dont use the word Protestant because it broad brushes people unfairly.

 

[W2L]

I am glad that you believe that you are doing well. Lot's of people think that they are doing well, but in fact are not. And yes, this could include me too.

I hit bottom long ago. Trust me, i know the difference between hitting bottom and doing well.

 

[amariselle]

I hit bottom long ago. Trust me, i know the difference between hitting bottom and doing well.

Me too.

 

[PeaceB]

You may think that there is no structure in Protestant churches, or that no one is willing to humble themselves and learn from others in matters of Scripture, spiritual maturity and faith, but you'd be wrong. We can all learn and we can and should also all remember that we can help and encourage others as well. We are a family in Christ. If you think that every single Protestant is simply going around doing "whatever his (or her) conscience dictates", you are incorrect. That is absolutely false, we know we are brothers and sisters in Christ, and that as His "body" we need each other.

I do not recall saying all of that. The question is not whether we are brothers and sisters in Christ. We all agree to that. The question is whether Scripture teaches that God gave some men authority over others, and whether Scripture teaches that the Holy Spirit guides each individual Christian into the truth, apart from that authority.

Conversely, if you think there is no difference of opinion or belief among all those who call themselves Catholic, you'd also be wrong. There is every bit as much division in the Catholic Church as in Protestant denominations, it's simply less visible because the Catholic Church is more structured with their official hierarchy under the Pope. This does not mean that all Catholics think alike or even share the same beliefs on important matters, (transubstantiation for example).

Catholics adhere to the defined dogmas of the Magisterium. "Catholics" who obstinately deny defined dogmas of the Catholic Church are automatically excommunicated under Canon Law Section 1364. They are not Catholic by the definition of the Church, regardless of what they may choose to call themselves.

You can easily walk down the street and find two Protestant churches next door to each other, where one pastor teaches the necessity of baptism for salvation, and the other teaches that baptism is unnecessary. If a Catholic priest obstinately teaches that baptism is not necessary for salvation, a doctrine contrary to the defined dogmas of the Magisterium, in due course he will be laicized.

 

[PeaceB]

I hit bottom long ago. Trust me, i know the difference between hitting bottom and doing well.

If we are not in Christ we are not doing well, by any definition.

 

[amariselle]

I do not recall saying all of that. The question is not whether we are brothers and sisters in Christ. We all agree to that. The question is whether Scripture teaches that God gave some men authority over others, and whether Scripture teaches that the Holy Spirit guides each individual Christian into the truth, apart from that authority.

Catholics adhere to the defined dogmas of the Magisterium. "Catholics" who obstinately deny defined dogmas of the Catholic Church are automatically excommunicated under Canon Law Section 1364. They are not Catholic by the definition of the Church, regardless of what they may choose to call themselves.

You can easily walk down the street and find two Protestant churches next door to each other, where one pastor teaches the necessity of baptism for salvation, and the other teaches that baptism is unnecessary. If a Catholic priest obstinately teaches that baptism is not necessary for salvation, a doctrine contrary to the defined dogmas of the Magisterium, in due course he will be laicized.

Do you think that every Catholic who should be excommunicated, is?