Water canopy check, and mate!

[dad]

But not that your falliable interpretation of the bible could be? [Not when it comes to some things, they are not for sale, or up for grabs. Such as Jesus, and the ressurection, heaven, etc.]

What intergrity you must have. [Why do I doubt your sincerety here?]


Oh, but it does. Its obvious that many many christians disagree with your interpretation, yet you refuse to admit that you might be wrong about it. [I guess you are talking about the actual creation in 7 days here?]


Its not known. Its claimed to have occured, in the face on physical evidence (even in 'the box' you would expect there to be some remanants)
[Yes, and, interprted correctly, the clues are manifold]



It didn't happen thats how.
Of course, using 'in the box' science, it has been discovered that a large flood occured in mesopotamia several thousand years ago. [Well, they have discovered, I think all the world was covered by water!!! The only question is when?! And this leads us to how they determine the whens. Water we got.]


And your proof of this is? [Look around you. Even ask the top men of science, can they see more? What more do you need!?]

.

 

[dad]

Are you even trying anymore?



How sad; You only see what's in the Bible. [Not true. I see all science as well. Just like if I have a set of keys that open many exotic doors, I don't see only the keys, I see whats in the doors they open.]

You're trapped in a Bible-shaped box, and perhaps you'll understand why nobody chooses to crawl in with you.

[Thats like telling passengers in a burning plane, or bus, not to go through the escape hatch, as they then will only be trapped in all the great outdoors!].

 

[dad]

Oh good.
Now I have someone I can blame bad weather on.

Yes the magic sky grandpa did it

 

[Ishmael Borg]

So, I refered to the firat magically appearing lifeform as 'Granny', or 'Grandma Bacteria' -and you now have a term as well. "magic-sky-grandpa". I assume this must be God?

I used the magic grandpa term here long before you ever got to this forum, so please don't consider it a form of imitation or flattery. And no, magic-grandpa means "Earth Mother". She's as valid as your god.

Well, we don't have to reject or ignore God to employ and enjoy science.

We can safely ignore him when we deal with real science. It IS agnostic, despite your uninformed opinion.

We can have all the physical science men so far have discovered, and much more as well. True science is not at all agnostic!

Yes it is. The rest of the world (including me) doesn't really care what you think about it. Start a science revolution, if you have the knowledge and ability.

Only the measley little portion of the box. Even then, the only ones who try to keep God out of their little prison cell are those who want to. We all don't. We don't have to. Creation/science discussion including physical only based science portions, does not have to leave out the creator at all! If it did leave out the Raison D'etre-it would better fit in some paganistic pigion hole, rather than in a debate on creation. Especially one on a christian site! deal with it.

Your opinions, and those of all creationists, don't mean a thing to real scientists. Don't take my word on it, read around (beyond your goofy cre/sci sites, of course). They're busy making the world a better place while you obsess on a particular mythology.

Why am I allowed on this christian site? Looks like Erwin isn't threatened by my atheism or scientific viewpoints. Why are you? (Hint: Because you're on the losing side.)

 

[dad]

And what do you base this opinion on? How do you add "spirit" to the physical world, when physical and spiritual have been seperated?

And why couldn´t the flood be such a "localized exception"?

The flood was worldwide, but hey, the universe is a big place, so you darn well could have a point there!
Now how does God add some intervention with His spiritual forces? Easy. He's the Head Honcho, the Almighty, the great I AM, all powerful, and can do as He pleases, and theres not a thing anyone can do about it! He can send angels, or a lot of things. He answers prayer, and can bend the fabric of the universe to do it.

 

[Freodin]

The flood was worldwide, but hey, the universe is a big place, so you darn well could have a point there!
Now how does God add some intervention with His spiritual forces? Easy. He's the Head Honcho, the Almighty, the great I AM, all powerful, and can do as He pleases, and theres not a thing anyone can do about it! He can send angels, or a lot of things. He answers prayer, and can bend the fabric of the universe to do it.

Well, thank you.

These lines mean that all your posts here boil down to "Goddidit", and all your talk about spiiritual splits and different physical laws are just complicated-sounding terms to hide it.

I knew that before, but now that you have admitted it in writing, I can savely ignore further posts from you.

 

[Douglaangu v2.0]

Not when it comes to some things, they are not for sale, or up for grabs. Such as Jesus, and the ressurection, heaven, etc.

What about your interpretation of Genesis?

I guess you are talking about the actual creation in 7 days here?

Yes. Now answer the question.

Yes, and, interprted correctly, the clues are manifold

Examples please, and explanation of why professional geologists do not find these clues.

Well, they have discovered,

Who is 'they', and where can I find examples of their work?

I think all the world was covered by water!!!

Hell, I'm quoting you out of contex and it STILL means the same thing.

The only question is when?! And this leads us to how they determine the whens. Water we got.

No, there are more questions than that.
What? Did it? How? Why? When?

You're still got the first four before you can even think about answering the When.

 

[Nathan Poe]

[Thats like telling passengers in a burning plane, or bus, not to go through the escape hatch, as they then will only be trapped in all the great outdoors!].

Then tell me, what, besides your Bible box, is keeping you from considering the strawberry custard canopy theory?

 

[dad]

I used the magic grandpa term here long before you ever got to this forum, so please don't consider it a form of imitation or flattery. And no, magic-grandpa means "Earth Mother". She's as valid as your god. [So mother earth really is a he? Thanks for clearing that up. So it is not God, or a reference to Him]



We can safely ignore him when we deal with real science. It IS agnostic, despite your uninformed opinion. [Only the box bits, as interpreted by the made up of mind]



Yes it is. [No it isn't. All that shows is you are unwilling, or unable to perceive that the spiritual is a part of science, in the true, and larger sense.] The rest of the world (including me) doesn't really care what you think about it. Start a science revolution, if you have the knowledge and ability.



Your opinions, and those of all creationists, don't mean a thing to real scientists. Don't take my word on it, read around (beyond your goofy cre/sci sites, of course). They're busy making the world a better place while you obsess on a particular mythology. [Genetical frankensteins, hellish weapons to destroy mankind, abortion pills, chip implants, and a host of other dark knowledge is part of modern science, true. However, there are lots of good bits as well. The mythology comes only when men reject the creator. They end up with myths like Granny, and the creator speck. Maybe you ought to read some of the biggest selling book in history, it can tell us more than rapidly outdated papers of men of the box!]

Why am I allowed on this christian site? [Someone told me I didn't belong here, so to that, I say, hey, let's put the shoe on the other foot, where it might fit better.]Looks like Erwin isn't threatened by my atheism or scientific viewpoints. Why are you? [Hate to have to let you down, here, but I haven't really seen much if any of your so called scientific veiws here. And as far as being threatened by them, don't flatter yourself! I eat veiws like that for breakfast!] (Hint: Because you're on the losing side.) [Hec no! I could not lose, literally, if I tried to, for winning! The clock is ticking, the box is soon to be no more, but those who believe in Him will live forevermore]

.

 

[dad]

Then tell me, what, besides your Bible box, is keeping you from considering the strawberry custard canopy theory?

I have my sum total of man's physical science as well! I have witnesses, some have used a telescope! And I have the bible, as well. Can't you try to raise some point that is of merit? Or are you really that defeated already?

 

[Bruce D McKay Elijah]

Fossils Show Climate Was Uniformly Mild Around The World
By Bruce D. McKay

This is something the early geologists forgot to include in formulating what we now think of as being the true features of geology. There is no way to account for the fact of the matter, that "there was a pefrectly uniform, non-zonal mild, and springlike climate in every part of the globe." There were some differences, but not the present extremes.
.
"The flora and fauna are virtually the only thermometers with which we can test the climate of any past period. Other evidence is always sophisticated by the fact that we may be attributing to climate what is due to other causes. But the biological evidence is unmistakable; cold-blood reptiles cannot life in icy water; semitropical plants, or plants whose habitat is the temperate zone, cannot ripen their seeds and sow themselves under artic conditions." (Sir Henry H. Holworth)
.
Evolutionists have nowhere to turn on this one. For that matter, Alfred R. Wallace wrote - "There is but one climate known to the ancient fossil world as revealed by the plants and animals entombed in the rocks, and the climate (world-wide) was of spring-like loviness which seems to have prevalied continuously over the whole globe. Just how the world may have been warmed all over may be a matter of conjecture; that it was so warmed effectively and continuously is a matter of fact." (Alfred R. Wallace, The Geographical Distribution of Animals, 1, page 277.)
.
The point is that the flora nad fauna of the world today is impoverished, in comparison to what the fossils reveal of a greater distribution world wide, of various genera and species. In all parts of the earth there was a far greater variety of species - and the animals and plant life of today shows that it has all met with a distinct deterioration, when compared with their fossil ancestors. Almost every species has significantly "downsized," leading to the conclusion that atmospheric conditions of the ancient world prohibited droughts and made it impossible to burn up the accumulated deposits of plants and trees, as now occurs during any extensive forest fire.
.
Global warming is of course the key factor or factors that are obviouslly MISSING from the overall concepts of modern geology. I believe we are on the verge of seeing a massive phase shift in matter, and it is going to take the entire planet back to a global, world-wide spring-like type of climate. You will find a note on this in the Evolution-light discussion.

 

[jjdoe]

I have thought that when the new heavens are revealed, that the physical only universe will cease to exist, as it will be a complete spiritual/physical universe then. Of course the laws of physics, and gravity will not apply as they now do. I also suspect the bible indicates such a state existed before in our early history, but the two had to be seperated, probably as a result of the fall.

I have speculated that this split was fast, maybe instant, probably at the time of the fall of man. That is still what I think.
However, thinking about a water canopy of some kind, enough to really cause a flood, has led to a new possibility! I think it is pretty well known, and accepted, really, that such a canopy would be impossible, due to the great heat, and other things the laws of physics simply prohibit.
How about this, then. The split was not instant, but perhaps never really was completed till during the flood!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This makes it entirely possible, as the merged laws were different. Presto- all arguements hitherto used against a canopy no longer valid!!! I like that. With science, then being neutered, this leaves only objections of a biblical nature to be a possible theory killer here.(?) But that's not going to happen, I am almost positive! So, evos, check, and MATE!!

which statement brings more intellectual value? The above quote? or...

"guhedistaianad,,eadads.asdf;;;;;;;....eduanedaitedn,,diaplodiandasjasdneid"?

Or are they intellectually neutral?

 

[dad]

[/b][/i]What about your interpretation of Genesis? [Christians can form their own opinion there, I'm going with God on that one]


Yes. Now answer the question. [No problem, so then my believing in God's 7 day creation is your big stumper. I got it.]



Examples please, and explanation of why professional geologists do not find these clues. [Why do I have to apologize for men who can't find the trees for the forest? They just haven't the wherewithal to know what they did find]


Who is 'they', and where can I find examples of their work? [Good quwestion. However this seems to be a growing thread, so you'll have to try to get the jist of what you're talking about in the snippet, because by the time I go to look it up, and wade through old posts, I get stary eyed]

Hell, I'm quoting you out of contex and it STILL means the same thing. [Must be something to it then]



No, there are more questions than that.
What? Did it? How? Why? When? [What? The flood. ( God, the canopy, and the fountains of the deep, using pre split laws) How? That's a big topic. But one I'm already getting a few ideas about. When? The timetable is very clear!

You're still got the first four before you can even think about answering the When. [The way they come up with their whens hold the key to the rest]

.

 

[ravenscape]

which statement brings more intellectual value? The above quote? or...

"guhedistaianad,,eadads.asdf;;;;;;;....eduanedaitedn,,diaplodiandasjasdneid"?

Or are they intellectually neutral?

I wouldn't call them intellectually neutral. I could feel my IQ dropping with every character.

Why am I reading this drivel? Why is ANYONE reading this drivel?

 

[dad]

I have thought that when the new heavens are revealed, that the physical only universe will cease to exist, as it will be a complete spiritual/physical universe then. Of course the laws of physics, and gravity will not apply as they now do. I also suspect the bible indicates such a state existed before in our early history, but the two had to be seperated, probably as a result of the fall.

I have speculated that this split was fast, maybe instant, probably at the time of the fall of man. That is still what I think.
However, thinking about a water canopy of some kind, enough to really cause a flood, has led to a new possibility! I think it is pretty well known, and accepted, really, that such a canopy would be impossible, due to the great heat, and other things the laws of physics simply prohibit.
How about this, then. The split was not instant, but perhaps never really was completed till during the flood!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This makes it entirely possible, as the merged laws were different. Presto- all arguements hitherto used against a canopy no longer valid!!! I like that. With science, then being neutered, this leaves only objections of a biblical nature to be a possible theory killer here.(?) But that's not going to happen, I am almost positive! So, evos, check, and MATE!!

which statement brings more intellectual value? The above quote? or...

"guhedistaianad,,eadads.asdf;;;;;;;....eduanedaitedn,,diaplodiandasjasdneid"?

If I thought you actually wanted to understand it, I might attempt an illumination. However, it seems you may just want to try to be cynical?

 

[Ishmael Borg]

So mother earth really is a he? Thanks for clearing that up. So it is not God, or a reference to Him.

Of course not. My "Earth Mother" is infinitely more powerful than your paltry god. It's an insult to her to even have to correct you on this.

Only the box bits, as interpreted by the made up of mind

Science is science. If your non-box bits include the metaphysical, they are not science, and you are in the wrong forum.

No it isn't. All that shows is you are unwilling, or unable to perceive that the spiritual is a part of science, in the true, and larger sense.

Science is science. There is no larger sense. If you want to re-invent science, then all I can say is 'good luck'.

Genetical frankensteins, hellish weapons to destroy mankind, abortion pills, chip implants, and a host of other dark knowledge is part of modern science, true. However, there are lots of good bits as well. The mythology comes only when men reject the creator. They end up with myths like Granny, and the creator speck. Maybe you ought to read some of the biggest selling book in history, it can tell us more than rapidly outdated papers of men of the box!]

"Genetical" isn't even a word. Why don't you take this **** to an idiots-only forum where they'll praise you. There is more evidence for proto-cell abiogenesis than for any god.

Someone told me I didn't belong here, so to that, I say, hey, let's put the shoe on the other foot, where it might fit better.

No, science belongs in this forum. There are other forums on this site that are devoted to adherents of your closed-minded nonsense, that exclude people like me. Go there if you don't like it.

Hate to have to let you down, here, but I haven't really seen much if any of your so called scientific veiws here. And as far as being threatened by them, don't flatter yourself! I eat veiws like that for breakfast!

I've only seen you eat crow, because you've never backed a single rant with anything of substance. Without your book of myth, or with it, for that matter, you are just a tiny squeak against the din of reality. Open your ears and eyes.

Hec no! I could not lose, literally, if I tried to, for winning! The clock is ticking, the box is soon to be no more, but those who believe in Him will live forevermore

Who knows what you mean in the first sentence. You are raving, I think. For two-thousand years we've been threatened with this ticking clock. Give it a rest.

 

[dad]

I wouldn't call them intellectually neutral. I could feel my IQ dropping with every character.

Why am I reading this drivel? Why is ANYONE reading this drivel?

When we come to understand how little we really know, there is hope we will begin to make progress.

 

[Douglaangu v2.0]

Christians can form their own opinion there, I'm going with God on that one
No problem, so then my believing in God's 7 day creation is your big stumper. I got it.

So you're admiting that even though your interpretation of the bible may be wrong, your interpretation of the bible isn't wrong?

Why do I have to apologize for men who can't find the trees for the forest? They just haven't the wherewithal to know what they did find

Nice attempt to dodge the question.
I'm guessing that you're never going to provide these 'clues'.

Good quwestion. However this seems to be a growing thread, so you'll have to try to get the jist of what you're talking about in the snippet, because by the time I go to look it up, and wade through old posts, I get stary eyed

Answer the question.
Who is they, and how did they discover the entire world was covered in water?

Must be something to it then

"I think all the world was covered by water!!!"?

Good job, you just admited your entire position is your opinion, and nothing more.

What? The flood.

No evidence to support a world covering flood.

( God, the canopy, and the fountains of the deep, using pre split laws)

No evidence of any of these.

How? That's a big topic. But one I'm already getting a few ideas about.

You need more than just 'ideas'.
You're going to need some testable facts.

When? The timetable is very clear!

Really? Because you said " The only question is when?! And this leads us to how they determine the whens."

Seems like it isnt as clear as you thought.

 

[jjdoe]

If I thought you actually wanted to understand it, I might attempt an illumination. However, it seems you may just want to try to be cynical?

"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

Gen. 3:6





"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

"And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden."

Gen 3:7-8


"And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

Gen 3:13-15




"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Gen. 3:16

"And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

"Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

Gen. 3:17-19

"And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

"Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them."

Gen 3:20-21



"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

"Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

"So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

Gen 22-25


From a literalist standpoint, it sounds to may like the fall was immediate, and it was immediately after this conservation that the Lord sent them astray. Every YEC source I read (including answers in genesis) shows that death occured at that moment when the Lord sent them out. Would you like to point me to a source that advocates your "theory" about the "fall" occuring during the flood? I suppose since you're a YEC the source would have to be a YEC source and not a GAP, YBC, OEC, or some other creationist variant source. Not to mention the simple fact that Adam died before the fall among several other passages that points to condemnations brought forth by the Lord occuring before the Flood.

 

[dad]

Of course not. My "Earth Mother" is infinitely more powerful than your paltry god. It's an insult to her to even have to correct you on this. [Bring her on, or should I say "he". Ha]



Science is science. [true, the box is the box is the box! Nevertheless true science is a wonderful thing, and not limited to physical only present boundries] If your non-box bits include the metaphysical, they are not science, and you are in the wrong forum. [No, you just need to come up to snuff on what science really is
here's a sample. "What is science? This is a very reasonable question, but unfortunately it isn't easy to provide a simple, definitive answer because there is no entity with the authority to define science. Coming up with a proper definition of science is not unlike coming up with a proper definition of other human institutions, like religion or family: there is so much going on that long, complex books are written in an effort to explain it all - and still people disagree.
http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/evo/blfaq_sci_index.htm
SCI'ENCE, n. L. scientia, from scio, to know.
1. In a general sense, knowledge, or certain knowledge; the comprehension or understanding of truth or facts by the mind. The science of God must be perfect.
http://www.studylight.org/dic/kjd/view.cgi?number=T4954
SCIENCE
si'-ens:
This word as found in the King James Version means simply "knowledge." "Science" occurs in the King James Version only in two places, Daniel 1:4, "children .... understanding science" (yodhe`edha`ath, "those who understand science"). The meaning of the term here is "knowledge," "wisdom." The only other occurrence of "science" is in the New Testament (1 Timothy 6:20, "avoiding .... oppositions of science falsely so called," tes pseudonumou gnoseos, "the falsely called gnosis"). "Science" is the translation of the Greek gnosis, which in the New Testament is usually rendered "knowledge." The science here referred to was a higher knowledge of Christian and divine things, which false teachers alleged that they possessed, and of which they boasted.
http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T7700
"]



Science is science. There is no larger sense. [Ho ho ho. There is only the box. There are no Alps.] If you want to re-invent science, then all I can say is 'good luck'. [Thank you, actually I don't need any luck. The word, if I remember correctly, derived from 'lucifer' anyhow. It is written in the stars, and inevitible]



"Genetical" isn't even a word. [then you have tens of thousands of places to correct. For example, you can stsrt here!!!!! http://journals.cambridge.org/bin/bladerunner?30REQEVENT=&REQAUTH=0&500002REQSUB=&REQSTR1=GeneticalResearch ]Why don't you take this **** to an idiots-only forum where they'll praise you. There is more evidence for proto-cell abiogenesis than for any god. [that you can tell, perhaps] [Are you saying you didn't understand what I meant the monsterous idiots were doing?



No, science belongs in this forum. There are other forums on this site that are devoted to adherents of your closed-minded nonsense, that exclude people like me. Go there if you don't like it. [Try and make me]



I've only seen you eat crow, [wishful thinking] because you've never backed a single rant with anything of substance. [you just don't know what substance is] Without your book of myth, or with it, for that matter, you are just a tiny squeak against the din of reality. Open your ears and eyes. [Ok. They are open, now what?]



Who knows what you mean in the first sentence. You are raving, I think. For two-thousand years we've been threatened with this ticking clock. Give it a rest. [ Actually longer than that. But it is a wonderful thing, how we soon will not be limited to physical only, but have our complete eternal universe. Tick, baby, tick!]

.