Water canopy check, and mate!

[Ishmael Borg]

Bring her on, or should I say "he". Ha.

You name the place. My god(ess) can beat up your god, even without a definite pronoun.

But seriously, dad, I don't think our discussion is relevant here, and little good would come of it anyway. You're a myth guy, and I'm an evidence guy; we can only p*ss each other off.

And by the way, I concede that "genetical" is a word (albeit obscure), so you can be assured that I'm not the kind of guy who'll play semantic games to wriggle out of my errors. Of course, I also realize that you didn't know that, and that you probably meant "genetic" until you saw page 1 of the google search like I did (your Cambridge reference was listing #2), but it doesn't make me right on this. Your claim of tens of thousands of references to this spelling is doubtful, however.

Earth Mother bless,
-Ish

 

[dad]

So you're admiting that even though your interpretation of the bible may be wrong, your interpretation of the bible isn't wrong? [No. I was talking about the split taking a while to complete]



Nice attempt to dodge the question.
I'm guessing that you're never going to provide these 'clues'. [So, what clues do we have geologists have it wrong? How about this one, do they assume an evolutionary sequence, now, to fossils? I'm not asking old history, but now?]



Answer the question.
Who is they, and how did they discover the entire world was covered in water?



"I think all the world was covered by water!!!"?

Good job, you just admited your entire position is your opinion, and nothing more. [Well, what part of the world was never covered by water?]



You need more than just 'ideas'.
You're going to need some testable facts. [No problem. We also need those capable of testing them! Preferably who also do not presuppose no creator, or flood.]



Really? Because you said " The only question is when?! And this leads us to how they determine the whens." [The timetable for when the world was made, some 6000 years ago. Yes it is clear. But the timetable of the geologists is based on wrong assumptions, so they got it way out of whack]

Seems like it isnt as clear as you thought. [Hope this cleared it up, so you too can see it is quite clear]

.

 

[dad]

You name the place. My god(ess) can beat up your god, even without a definite pronoun. [Here, and now]

But seriously, dad, I don't think our discussion is relevant here, and little good would come of it anyway. You're a myth guy, and I'm an evidence guy; we can only p*ss each other off. [limited evidence and predispositions , and a little spiritual help behind the scenes, leads to myths, only falsely claimed to be based on the evidence]

And by the way, I concede that "genetical" is a word [ I accept your admission of being wrong] (albeit obscure), so you can be assured that I'm not the kind of guy who'll play semantic games to wriggle out of my errors. Of course, I also realize that you didn't know that, and that you probably meant "genetic" until you saw page 1 of the google search like I did (your Cambridge reference was listing #2), but it doesn't make me right on this. Your claim of tens of thousands of references to this spelling is doubtful, however. [ Google had 169,000, but I'll accept an apology in this case in advance, no need to eat more humble pie]

.

 

[Illuminatus]

Why am I reading this drivel? Why is ANYONE reading this drivel?

Well, Sinfest is only updated daily, so I need something to fill in the time.

 

[dad]

Fossils Show Climate Was Uniformly Mild Around The World
By Bruce D. McKay

This is something the early geologists forgot to include in formulating what we now think of as being the true features of geology. There is no way to account for the fact of the matter, that "there was a pefrectly uniform, non-zonal mild, and springlike climate in every part of the globe." There were some differences, but not the present extremes.
.
"The flora and fauna are virtually the only thermometers with which we can test the climate of any past period. Other evidence is always sophisticated by the fact that we may be attributing to climate what is due to other causes. But the biological evidence is unmistakable; cold-blood reptiles cannot life in icy water; semitropical plants, or plants whose habitat is the temperate zone, cannot ripen their seeds and sow themselves under artic conditions." (Sir Henry H. Holworth)
.
Evolutionists have nowhere to turn on this one. For that matter, Alfred R. Wallace wrote - "There is but one climate known to the ancient fossil world as revealed by the plants and animals entombed in the rocks, and the climate (world-wide) was of spring-like loviness which seems to have prevalied continuously over the whole globe. Just how the world may have been warmed all over may be a matter of conjecture; that it was so warmed effectively and continuously is a matter of fact." (Alfred R. Wallace, The Geographical Distribution of Animals, 1, page 277.)
.
The point is that the flora nad fauna of the world today is impoverished, in comparison to what the fossils reveal of a greater distribution world wide, of various genera and species. In all parts of the earth there was a far greater variety of species - and the animals and plant life of today shows that it has all met with a distinct deterioration, when compared with their fossil ancestors. Almost every species has significantly "downsized," leading to the conclusion that atmospheric conditions of the ancient world prohibited droughts and made it impossible to burn up the accumulated deposits of plants and trees, as now occurs during any extensive forest fire.
.
Global warming is of course the key factor or factors that are obviouslly MISSING from the overall concepts of modern geology. I believe we are on the verge of seeing a massive phase shift in matter, and it is going to take the entire planet back to a global, world-wide spring-like type of climate. You will find a note on this in the Evolution-light discussion.

Bingo. The evidence keeps coming in, folks.

 

[Nathan Poe]

I have my sum total of man's physical science as well!

You have the box.

I have witnesses, some have used a telescope!

You have their boxes.

And I have the bible, as well.

You have the smallest box of all.

Can't you try to raise some point that is of merit?

Merit? How much merit can I show to someone as seep inside the box as yourself?

Lost cause, I'm afraid...

Or are you really that defeated already?

Defeated? Perhaps. Clearly nothing I can say or do is going to get you out of the box.

Oh well, I can at least console myself by knowing that it wouldn't be worth the trouble anyway...

 

[dad]

From a literalist standpoint, it sounds to may like the fall was immediate, and it was immediately after this conservation that the Lord sent them astray. Every YEC source I read (including answers in genesis) shows that death occured at that moment when the Lord sent them out. Would you like to point me to a source that advocates your "theory" about the "fall" occuring during the flood? I suppose since you're a YEC the source would have to be a YEC source and not a GAP, YBC, OEC, or some other creationist variant source. Not to mention the simple fact that Adam died before the fall among several other passages that points to condemnations brought forth by the Lord occuring before the Flood.

Yes, the fall was immediate, what is your point? Whats this malarky about some fall in the flood? The split started to happen I would suspect, at the fall of man. That is where death entered the world. The question asked here is was the complete seperation between the spirit world, and the physical only one, then complete? If so, how do you know?

 

[jjdoe]

If so, how do you know?

Again, I ask you for a literalist source that supports your theory. A quick amazon search could not find a thing.

 

[dad]

I have my sum total of man's physical science as well!





You have the box.

Right, thats what I just said, yes I do have the nice box of physical only science, as well as all the rest!

And I have the bible, as well.





You have the smallest box of all.

It's like a magic lamp, it may be small, but it opens the way to great wonders. It's like a window on eternity, we can pass through, and only looks small to those who look at it from afar.

Merit? How much merit can I show to someone as seep inside the box as yourself?

Other people sometimes read things as well, perhaps your weilding of scientific knowledge, and bible savvy prowness can dazzle not a few?

 

[Nathan Poe]

Right, thats what I just said, yes I do have the nice box of physical only science, as well as all the rest!

The rest being whatever you can make up off the top of your head...

It's like a magic lamp, it may be small, but it opens the way to great wonders. It's like a window on eternity, we can pass through, and only looks small to those who look at it from afar.

You have a magic lamp. Okaaaaayyy...

Do you have your medication?

Other people sometimes read things as well, perhaps your weilding of scientific knowledge, and bible savvy prowness can dazzle not a few?

You're not dazzling, you're amusing.

 

[dad]

Right, thats what I just said, yes I do have the nice box of physical only science, as well as all the rest!





The rest being whatever you can make up off the top of your head...

No, years of study of both science, and the bible. Those things I would hope you too, would be able to bring to bear in a discussion, rather than fluff.

You have a magic lamp. Okaaaaayyy...

Do you have your medication?

I am thankfully not on drugs. I've got something much more potent, and with no side effects.

Other people sometimes read things as well, perhaps your weilding of scientific knowledge, and bible savvy prowness can dazzle not a few?

"You're not dazzling, you're amusing."

Well, I never said I was, I said, if you had some substance to contribute, it may dazzle others.

 

[ImmortalTechnique]

i now officially think that dad is faking it

 

[dad]

Again, I ask you for a literalist source that supports your theory. A quick amazon search could not find a thing.

I did not get the cambrian fossil order, the split, or other ideas I hold from some literalist site. Simply a result of a belief in the bible, and trying to see where some people I had discussions with, who were scientists, had gone wrong. I would hope, with His help.

 

[Nathan Poe]

No, years of study of both science, and the bible. Those things I would hope you too, would be able to bring to bear in a discussion, rather than fluff.

There doesn't seem to be much room in your box for fluff.

I am thankfully not on drugs. I've got something much more potent, and with no side effects.

Ah, I forgot, you have magic.

Well, I never said I was, I said, if you had some substance to contribute, it may dazzle others.

Somebody needs to contribute some substance.... everyone sort of assumed it would be you.

 

[dad]

Somebody needs to contribute some substance.... everyone sort of assumed it would be you

I have shown where the spiritual fits with physical science, defined it's boundries, what can you say to challenge, or agree? I am ready for all science, or bible challenges.

 

[Douglaangu v2.0]

No. I was talking about the split taking a while to complete

Ah. So your interpretation of the bible is infalliable then?

So, what clues do we have geologists have it wrong? How about this one, do they assume an evolutionary sequence, now, to fossils? I'm not asking old history, but now?

What on earth are you talking about? I was asking for the 'clues' you claim to have that 'interpreted correctly' are physical evidence for the noahacian flood.

Well, what part of the world was never covered by water?

"Well, they have discovered, I think all the world was covered by water!!! " is not talking about rain occuring at differnt times.
Its talking about a worldwide flood.

So, who is 'they' and what are their discoveries?

No problem. We also need those capable of testing them! Preferably who also do not presuppose no creator, or flood.

Testing what? You havn't given us anything to work with.

The timetable for when the world was made, some 6000 years ago. Yes it is clear. But the timetable of the geologists is based on wrong assumptions, so they got it way out of whack

Geologists have nothing to do with it, since they all agree that a global flood never happened.

 

[Battie]

Sure it's like a fairy tale. But so is what you're saying. If you think that the laws of physics don't apply before the split, then why couldn't the stars have been stuck into a solid sky with an ocean above them? (The word of God applied, and will always be here even after the merge! So, I don't see any fairy tales in there, myself, and obviously the death of the box can not long apply here! Besides, if stars were crazy glued firmly, how could they be for signs, which require some unusual activity!? Like the stsr the wise men saw, if it was glued, we'd see it still!) It explains perfectly where all that flood water came from after all. (You need to work on your humor, it is quite droll) Are you yourself stuck in the box that you accuse science of being in? (I accept physical science, and the wisdom of the box it is in, but am not limited only by it!)

Actually, I think in ancient cosmology the stars could roam around in the firmament. But I don't see what it matter, anyway. According to you, the split was complete after the flood, so what the wisemen saw doesn't matter. They would be seeing the post-split stars where the laws of physics actually applied.

You're having a pretty hard time accepting that this model of the universe, even though it's pretty much the same as your own, was science to the Hebrews and other ancients. If you can't accept this model, then why are you so adamant that we accept a young earth? Like a solid sky, rotating, sun, and heavenly ocean, six day creation has been falsified by modern science. (The heavenly ocean? You don't mean the sea of glass do you, in Revelations? Cause that really is around! 6 day creation is not false, and those who think it is falsified only inadvertatly admit that their falsification abilities are severely handicapped! As far as the sun rotating around the earth, we know, with physical science that is not so. What we do not know is what will revolve around what in the coming, merged, complete, eternal new heaven and new earth!!!!! So I wouldn't get to haughty totty!)

I'm not familiar with the sea of glass, actually. I'd be careful about Revelation, though, since it's so full of symbols.

Why do you accept that the earth revolves around the sun? You cannot, personally, observe that. You only accept it because science told you so. But the ancient Hebrews wouldn't have accepted that, not according to the model I showed you.

Science also tells you that the earth is ancient. This one you do not accept, because the ancient Hebrews said otherwise. Why do you reject the former but not the latter?

And, finally, I still do not see why you don't like this model. It has everything that would be required for a flood, even the "vapor canopy," and, according to your pre-split ideas, is entirely possible. (And, for the record, I'm not trying to be funny. I'm asking you a serious question.)

 

[dad]

No. I was talking about the split taking a while to complete





Ah. So your interpretation of the bible is infalliable then?

Why try to squeeze everything in there? All we are really doing is trying to see if the split could have taken a while to completely happen?

I was asking for the 'clues' you claim to have that 'interpreted correctly' are physical evidence for the noahacian flood.

Clues like water was everywhere. Clues like physical only dating is fatally flawed. Clues like God's word. Clues like the right amount of people on earth for the time periods involved. Clues like worldwide flood legends, and stories. Clues like a lot of creatures no longer exist, and went extinct. You name it, chances are it could have a pro flood interpretaion.

"Well, they have discovered, I think all the world was covered by water!!! " is not talking about rain occuring at differnt times.
Its talking about a worldwide flood.

So, who is 'they' and what are their discoveries?

Western Canada, much of the Us, and all kinds of places all over the world are known to have been covered by water at some time.

No problem. We also need those capable of testing them! Preferably who also do not presuppose no creator, or flood.





Testing what? You havn't given us anything to work with.

You'd have to be at least capable of acknowledging a spirit world. If not, how could you measure the effects it had? God can't be measured with a T square, or radar. Now if you try to test for proof that no spiritual/physical existed, you will not find it. So you can not deny it, with good reason!

But the timetable of the geologists is based on wrong assumptions, so they got it way out of whack



Geologists have nothing to do with it, since they all agree that a global flood never happened

They have a lot to do with it, and they have an old age timetable! Millions of years ago, this happened, billions of years ago, that happened, etc. A house built of cards from a stacked deck! A house, however, built on the sand that cannot last.

 

[Jimmy The Hand]

It's Gonna Rain!

 

[Douglaangu v2.0]

Why try to squeeze everything in there? All we are really doing is trying to see if the split could have taken a while to completely happen?

However it all comes down to your interpretation of the bible.

Clues like water was everywhere.

Clues like physical only dating is fatally flawed.

And dating based on the oral tradition of a nomadic tribe isnt?

Clues like God's word. Clues like the right amount of people on earth for the time periods involved.

Nonsense, unless there was no death, disease and low birthrates after the flood.

Clues like worldwide flood legends, and stories.

Funfact: Floods happen. In lots of different places around the world.
Oh, and there are lots of stories about how man stole fire from the gods too. I guess that must have happened as well.

Clues like a lot of creatures no longer exist, and went extinct.

Then why are the layering of the fossils not consistant with their size and weight?

Western Canada, much of the Us, and all kinds of places all over the world are known to have been covered by water at some time.

But all at the same time?

You'd have to be at least capable of acknowledging a spirit world. If not, how could you measure the effects it had? God can't be measured with a T square, or radar.

And that would be you right? Then front up with the information.

Now if you try to test for proof that no spiritual/physical existed, you will not find it. So you can not deny it, with good reason!

Nor can you prove it.

They have a lot to do with it, and they have an old age timetable!

How? They don't even think it ever happened, so why on earth would they relevant to when it happend?

Millions of years ago, this happened, billions of years ago, that happened, etc. A house built of cards from a stacked deck! A house, however, built on the sand that cannot last.

Now I they might be big numbers, and difficult for you to understand, but they work. This is why geologists are employed by the oil industry to find oil. They find oil based on there understanding of geology.
If their understanding was wrong, they would not be able to locte where oil would be.