Water canopy check, and mate!

[Douglaangu v2.0]

It's Gonna Rain!

IZ GONE RAIN

 

[dad]

According to you, the split was complete after the flood, so what the wisemen saw doesn't matter. They would be seeing the post-split stars where the laws of physics actually applied.

This possibility we are exploring, yes, that the split took some time to complete. But God said in the garden, that they were there for signs, and seasons, I believe, so they could not have been fixed.

I'm not familiar with the sea of glass, actually. I'd be careful about Revelation, though, since it's so full of symbols.

Fine, since you didn't mean that sea, we'll drop it.

Why do you accept that the earth revolves around the sun? You cannot, personally, observe that. You only accept it because science told you so. But the ancient Hebrews wouldn't have accepted that, not according to the model I showed you

So what? Maybe, if, in the new heavens, the sun does revolve around the earth, they had it right, as before the split also, it may have done?! Then, we of the insignificantly small time period of the physical only have it wrong in the big picture!

Science also tells you that the earth is ancient. This one you do not accept, because the ancient Hebrews said otherwise. Why do you reject the former but not the latter?

Prognostications of the box, imagined outside of the box, using laws, and measurements only of the box, are not science! That is pure imagination, so called science. That, for example there is a rock decaying we know is science. To tell tall tales of some distant primordal pond, where granny magically appeared, or that there was never anything else but death, physical only, and decay, is fantasy! Yes, we need to seperate the wheat from the chaff.

And, finally, I still do not see why you don't like this model. It has everything that would be required for a flood, even the "vapor canopy," and, according to your pre-split ideas, is entirely possible. (And, for the record, I'm not trying to be funny. I'm asking you a serious question.)

I only looked at you picture quickly, but what turned me off was this. I had just, somewhere else, recently, discussed someone's idea of how he said the ancients believed in a sort of metal covering for the earth. He tried to use bible as a justification, but others, and I dashed his idea to threads. I was a little loathe to get back into the whole thing too deeply here. But, basically, I don't buy the translation of firmament as some metal skydome type thing, at all.

 

[dad]

However it all comes down to your interpretation of the bible. [No, Jesus spoke of things Genesisian (new word)]

Clues like water was everywhere.

And dating based on the oral tradition of a nomadic tribe isnt? [depends on what the tribe said orally]



Nonsense, unless there was no death, disease and low birthrates after the flood. [No. This issue creation sites cover pretty good. Take it up with them]


Funfact: Floods happen. In lots of different places around the world.
Oh, and there are lots of stories about how man stole fire from the gods too. I guess that must have happened as well. [Many stories of the gods were based on some actual happenings in the spirit world, yes]


Then why are the layering of the fossils not consistant with their size and weight?
[The layering of the fossils are a record of when things died. The things on the bottom of the record tended to die first. At least in the cambrian death explosion. Then we have the pattern of things spreading out from eden, to the rest of the world, which creatures got where first, or, rather, got where, and died first? Then of course the trillobites and such He made worldwide, apparently, not just in Eden area, to prepare the world for our spread, I guess. Then of course, there was the flood! Then post flood. So, why would I look for some size, and weight rule here again?]




But all at the same time? [This is the question. Yes is the answer]


And that would be you right? Then front up with the information. [Yes, I can detect, as millions of others a spirit world. You can too. The first step would be to ask Jesus into your heart. Sorry to say, pitiful present science won't be able to help you out here]


Nor can you prove it. [Proofs abound, look around, ask around, seek, and you shall find]


How? They don't even think it ever happened, so why on earth would they relevant to when it happend? [ No they have no clue as to the flood, but they have their old age timetable nevertheless, and imagined past]



Now I they might be big numbers, and difficult for you to understand, but they work. This is why geologists are employed by the oil industry to find oil. They find oil based on there understanding of geology. [Is that why it is so expensive?]
If their understanding was wrong, they would not be able to locte where oil would be. [We know it is found in certain deposits, true. But their cockamamee old age theories don't have much to do with it]

.

 

[Valkhorn]

Now I they might be big numbers, and difficult for you to understand, but they work. This is why geologists are employed by the oil industry to find oil. They find oil based on there understanding of geology. [Is that why it is so expensive?]

Wow. I first thought you might be on just another planet in our solar system. Maybe one of the outter gas giants - the only difference being that the outer gas giants generally contain cold gas, and don't emit hot gas all the time.

But now I think you're perhaps from one of the extra solar planets that we've discovered, you know, one of the giant gas planets that's really close to its own sun.

I mean with all this drivel you come up with there's no way you're from planet Earth.

 

[dad]

Wow. I first thought you might be on just another planet in our solar system. Maybe one of the outter gas giants - the only difference being that the outer gas giants generally contain cold gas, and don't emit hot gas all the time.

But now I think you're perhaps from one of the extra solar planets that we've discovered, you know, one of the giant gas planets that's really close to its own sun.

I mean with all this drivel you come up with there's no way you're from planet Earth.

I like you too.

 

[Douglaangu v2.0]

No. This issue creation sites cover pretty good. Take it up with them

Too bad, I'm taking it up with.
Back up your claims with something other than hot air.

Many stories of the gods were based on some actual happenings in the spirit world, yes

Oh, so I guess they did steal fire from the god then.
Good to know.

The layering of the fossils are a record of when things died. The things on the bottom of the record tended to die first. At least in the cambrian death explosion. Then we have the pattern of things spreading out from eden, to the rest of the world, which creatures got where first, or, rather, got where, and died first? Then of course the trillobites and such He made worldwide, apparently, not just in Eden area, to prepare the world for our spread, I guess. Then of course, there was the flood! Then post flood. So, why would I look for some size, and weight rule here again?

Because you don't know what you're talking about, and everything up to the word "So" doesn't have much to do with my point.

If there had been a global flood that resulted in all the fossils we find, you would expect that the heaviest, most unable to survive animals would be at the bottom.

We don't.

We don't find marine animals all at the top, and heavy land animals at the bottom.

This is the question. Yes is the answer

Don't you think its a bit....dishonest to accept the geologists conclusions that those places were underwater, but ignore them when they say a global flood didn't occur?

Yes, I can detect, as millions of others a spirit world. You can too. The first step would be to ask Jesus into your heart. Sorry to say, pitiful present science won't be able to help you out here

I couldn't care less about it.
I want these 'facts' you keep talking about.

Proofs abound, look around, ask around, seek, and you shall find

I'm asking you, yet you're not providing anything other than your own opinion.

No they have no clue as to the flood, but they have their old age timetable nevertheless, and imagined past

Thats rich.

s that why it is so expensive?]
We know it is found in certain deposits, true. But their cockamamee old age theories don't have much to do with it

So they're good enough to find oil, but you can't trust them on the age of the earth, even though they use the same information.

 

[yossarian]

I think you should probably stick to checkers

chess is a little too complicated for you obviously

 

[DJ_Ghost]

No, your idea is premised on the box must be all there is, and we don't see it in the box, therefore no spiritual must exist, despite billions claiming otherwise!

No my idea is not based on there being no spiritual, you will notice I am a Christian so your notion that I don’t beleive in the spiritual is quite obviously very silly.

My post is based on the fact that you just made this up and have no support for it in the bible or in science.

My ideas are rich with biblical support, just open up a bible, and try to prove me wrong,

Well show me the biblical support for your idea then.

Also, my ideas embrace and accept all physical science,

Make your mind up. They either accept all science or they require us to “throw out the box” you can’t have it both ways. By your own admition for your idea to work the laws of physics have to be difenent before the flood therefore to now claim your ideas accept all physical science contradicts your own statment.

Guess where that leaves your post? Ha

Right where it was before, a simple rebuttal for your none sense. The primary difference is that your post in reply more clearly demonstrates that your idea is none sense. You are clearly terrible at science and it seems your theology isn’t any better.

Ghost

 

[Numenor]

With science, then being neutered, this leaves only objections of a biblical nature to be a possible theory killer here

He set's himself up here....

But you can be sure I am more than able to defend any ideas I may have with it, as much as the next guy.

says he can use the Bible to backup his ideas.....but then when I ask him to

Where is this in the Bible? Chapter and verse please...

It's not, but there is enough indications to make a good case for it.

So he admits his 'gradual split' idea is unsupported by the bible yet says that there are indications for it. What you mean 'box only' scientific indications dad? So you are relying on science and not the spirit world for evidence?

 

[Numenor]

I had just, somewhere else, recently, discussed someone's idea of how he said the ancients believed in a sort of metal covering for the earth. He tried to use bible as a justification, but others, and I dashed his idea to threads. I was a little loathe to get back into the whole thing too deeply here. But, basically, I don't buy the translation of firmament as some metal skydome type thing, at all.

The thing is, the root verb used for the word translated as 'expanse' in Gen 1:6,21 means 'a hammered out plate'. This is where they get this idea of a metal covering of some kind. (Job 37:18 also uses the same word to talk of the skies as 'hard as a mirror of cast bronze'.)

The irony is that they are being more true to a literal reading of the text of Genesis than you are dad. Can you explain how through your exegesis you dashed their idea to pieces?

 

[cerad]

Fossils Show Climate Was Uniformly Mild Around The World
By Bruce D. McKay
...
Evolutionists have nowhere to turn on this one. For that matter, Alfred R. Wallace wrote - "There is but one climate known to the ancient fossil world as revealed by the plants and animals entombed in the rocks, and the climate (world-wide) was of spring-like loviness which seems to have prevalied continuously over the whole globe. Just how the world may have been warmed all over may be a matter of conjecture; that it was so warmed effectively and continuously is a matter of fact." (Alfred R. Wallace, The Geographical Distribution of Animals, 1, page 277.)

Just in case anyone is wondering, Alfred R. Wallace lived from 1823 to 1913. The fact that his main work was done well over a century ago does not invalidate it but I would hope people could come up with something just a bit more recent. http://www.wku.edu/~smithch/index1.htm

 

[dad]

Too bad, I'm taking it up with.
Back up your claims with something other than hot air. [You can start her, if you need more, no problem http://www.ldolphin.org/popul.html ]





Oh, so I guess they did steal fire from the god then.
Good to know. [What your particular story was based on, if anything I don't know. The spirit world however is a real place, and some things are based on real events, however retold, or embelished. Some, likely are not]



Because you don't know what you're talking about, and everything up to the word "So" doesn't have much to do with my point. [Not at all, what can you say to a spreading out from eden etc, for some of the fossil order? If not, why not? You need to do more than just blow here]

If there had been a global flood that resulted in all the fossils we find, you would expect that the heaviest, most unable to survive animals would be at the bottom. [If some flood was the cause of all fossils, there would have been nothing in the world before this flood. That is absurd]

We don't.

We don't find marine animals all at the top, and heavy land animals at the bottom. [This notion of yours as to what should be expected, as expected is balderdash. So many things you do not take into consideration]



Don't you think its a bit....dishonest to accept the geologists conclusions that those places were underwater, but ignore them when they say a global flood didn't occur? [No. If they agree with the bible, in some way, I'll give credit where credit is due! If they drift off into some distant la la land
then I can't support their fantasy thoughts!]



I couldn't care less about it.
I want these 'facts' you keep talking about. [The spirit word is a fact, much more so than granny and the silly speck]



I'm asking you, yet you're not providing anything other than your own opinion. [The bible is not my opinion. Looking at evidence NOT through old age colored glasses is not just my opinion. If you are talking about the spirit world, that is not even just christian's opinion!]



Thats rich. [Thank you. We who believe are filthy rich in so many ways, and destined to rule the world forever as well!]



So they're good enough to find oil, but you can't trust them on the age of the earth, even though they use the same information. [ They clued in to which type of deposits the liquid gold is usually found in, and enough holes are drilled to reduce any risk! Despite their quacky timetable, we know there is a lot of fossil fuel down there. More pre flood, and flood proofs, if veiwed correctly!] [Hey, here is someone else who is payed big bucks to find oil!!!!! Apparently. --Uri Geller " .
Through the years, Uri has been studied and researched and scrutinized and hired and even recognized in the Guinness Book of World Records.
[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] There is an oil company that pays him a million dollars to fly him over oil fields so he can tell them where to drill. What kind of results do they get? The oil company won't say, but they hire him again ever few years, so they must be getting their money's worth." http://www.avlispub.com/garage/uri_geller.htm[/font]

.

 

[dad]

I think you should probably stick to checkers

chess is a little too complicated for you obviously

Would this be your response, in leui of a possible move!?

 

[dad]

No my idea is not based on there being no spiritual, you will notice I am a Christian so your notion that I don’t beleive in the spiritual is quite obviously very silly. [Then be clear on what aspect of the spiritual/physical here you do not agree with!]

My post is based on the fact that you just made this up and have no support for it in the bible or in science. [Not true]



Well show me the biblical support for your idea then. [I covered quite a bit of that in an older thread, about the split, I wonder if you might look that up? Wasn't it you, I just had to correct here, as well, for some strange notion that the fall was in the flood?]



Make your mind up. They either accept all science or they require us to “throw out the box” you can’t have it both ways. [Whatever are you droning on about now? Can you tell me what I shoud reject about science? Of course the old age presumptions based on present processes, but what about everything else? Math, engineering, chemistry, etc, etc?] By your own admition for your idea to work the laws of physics have to be difenent before the flood therefore to now claim your ideas accept all physical science contradicts your own statment. [Not at all, of course the laws of the physical only are different when added with the spiritual world! How else could heaven exist? So we know that physics is dated. Now can you prove to me it also was not different pre split?]



Right where it was before, a simple rebuttal for your none sense. The primary difference is that your post in reply more clearly demonstrates that your idea is none sense. You are clearly terrible at science and it seems your theology isn’t any better. [So you say, in your cute, rantish, unsubstansiated way. But I am ready to field real questions, not just deflect kooki baseless insults by professed christians!]

Ghost

.

 

[dad]

He set's himself up here....



says he can use the Bible to backup his ideas.....but then when I ask him to


So he admits his 'gradual split' idea is unsupported by the bible [ Hold on there. I simply meant that the split was not as such, clearly named in the bible. I have oodles of support. Go ahead, try to use the bible to knock the idea if you can, unless you are just evo hand waving here] yet says that there are indications for it. What you mean 'box only' scientific indications dad? So you are relying on science and not the spirit world for evidence? [ Indications in the bible, I think I would go with here. Also, an utter inability, of course, for physical only based science to raise a peep or whimper about.]

.

 

[dad]

The thing is, the root verb used for the word translated as 'expanse' in Gen 1:6,21 means 'a hammered out plate'. This is where they get this idea of a metal covering of some kind. (Job 37:18 also uses the same word to talk of the skies as 'hard as a mirror of cast bronze'.)

The irony is that they are being more true to a literal reading of the text of Genesis than you are dad. Can you explain how through your exegesis you dashed their idea to pieces?

Firmament. "Our translators, by following the firmamentum of the Vulgate, which is a translation of the στερεωμα of the Septuagint, have deprived this passage of all sense and meaning. The Hebrew word rakia, from raka, to spread out as the curtains of a tent or pavilion, simply signifies an expanse or space, and consequently that circumambient space or expansion separating the clouds, which are in the higher regions of it, from the seas, below it. This we call the atmosphere, the orb of atoms or inconceivably small particles; but the word appears to have been used by Moses in a more extensive sense, and to include the whole of the planetary vortex, or the space which is occupied by the whole solar system. " http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=ge&chapter=1&verse=6#Ge1_6 Here is where the thing was hashed out, I hope I don't have to go over it all again. http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=12&t=354&m=61 (the rest of this thread here)

 

[Numenor]

Hold on there. I simply meant that the split was not as such, clearly named in the bible. I have oodles of support.

We already know that you have no support for your ramblings from the Bible, where then does your support come from?

 

[dad]

We already know that you have no support for your ramblings from the Bible, where then does your support come from?

You know no such thing. The bible is prolificly abundant with spirit world illuminations. It also makes clear the physical only is on a short fuse to a dissapearing act. If you care to open up a bible, and show us where you think it opposes the idea, we patiently wait for your wisdom here.

 

[Numenor]

You know no such thing. The bible is prolificly abundant with spirit world illuminations. It also makes clear the physical only is on a short fuse to a dissapearing act. If you care to open up a bible, and show us where you think it opposes the idea, we patiently wait for your wisdom here.

You certainly are scared of answering this question aren't you. I'll try again: you admitted yourself there is no support for your "gradual split" idea in the bible, and we know you don't like "physical only" scientific evidence, so where does the support come from?

 

[dad]

You certainly are scared of answering this question aren't you. I'll try again: you admitted yourself there is no support for your "gradual split" idea in the bible, and we know you don't like "physical only" scientific evidence, so where does the support come from?

OK. You seem to have it a bit off here. I say there is support for the ideas I have. I did admit to someone, of course this split is not named in the bible. Now, you say the gradual split idea, so I take it you major concern is with trying to stretch it out to the flood time, rather than the original instant split version?
So, what biblical indications can we find that, first of all, would contradict this? None, I can yet see. Good start.
What indications are there it may have been so? Well, just look at to the physical science objections to some form of vapor canopy. Very very powerful, and well thought out, it seems to me. But we know that the fountains of the heaven were open, not just the fountains of the deep. How can this be? The split would handily take care of that.
What about the heat caused by continental plate movement, as we are pretty sure there was a lot of that in earth's history. If we moved it too far and fast in the flood, would we not have a very very big problem? The split handily takes care of this as well. No longer do we need just subterranean water reducing the friction, we have a pre split world, where we can slide it as needed. If we need some surficial heat, we can realize that some small part of the sling may have been as the split was completed, voila, we have heat, which we know we do have under there. Etc. And the beauty of this is, we still have decay processes and a post split universe with slow light, etc, as well! So, if we look at the clues, it seems to fit the bill better than almost anything I've heard of, and yet not contradict our present physical only based science!
Now, into the bible. As I mentioned it seems that God had a much more known presence way back when. Walking, and talking with folks. We still have some of this, but the lessened level, corresponding to a split could also fit quite well.
How about life spans up to the flood, then the sharp drop off? Could fit nicely as well, how else could we have lived so long, if not for some aspects of the spirit world were perhaps still here? Yes, we were dying, but it took a lot longer. For post split-post flood, we could kick in factors like we now had a big change. We now ate meat, had a different atmosphere, maybe some genetical change, etc. This might cover the still somewhat reducing lifespans post flood.
This post is getting long, so-what about it?