Was the Sabbath given to man at creation as a special day to worship God?

Did Adam and Eve keep each seventh-day Sabbath?

  • Yes

    Votes: 10 37.0%
  • No

    Votes: 17 63.0%

  • Total voters
    27

BobRyan

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There is no command NT or OT that gentiles be circumcised in order to be saved..

That is an Acts 15:1-5 heresy to claim otherwise and the Apostles refuted it.

Gentiles were circumcised in the O.T .

And in Acts 16:1-6 we see Timothy agrees to be circumcised.

But that does not mean gentiles could not be saved in the NT without being circumcised.

Just as the side detail that "some gentiles" in the OT were circumcised does not mean that "gentiles could not be saved in the NT without being circumcised"

On the unrelated topic of Acts 15. The debate concerned whether the Gentiles needed to be subject to the law which included circumcision.

failing to actual quote the text of Acts 15:1 ... so we can all see just how related it is to the idea that "gentiles must be circumcised to be saved" as "if" that were OT or NT doctrine... we find this.

Acts 15:1
Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

That would be heresy -- NT or OT.. you seem to think it is pretty good bible doctrine for gentiles possibly in the OT

Why do you ignore this verse?

Acts 15:5
But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”

Because Acts 15:1 speaks specifically to heresy of their day and brings out a point you have now insisted upon for gentiles in ... (not sure when??? the OT??)

Acts 15:1
Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

Whereas I insist that heresy as stated in Acts 15:1 was always heresy and as Gal 1:6-9 states "There is only ONE Gospel" and Gal 3:8 "that Gospel was preached to Abraham" and it is NOT the gospel that "all gentiles have to be circumcised to be saved"
 
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klutedavid

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No requirement in OT or NT that gentiles could not be saved unless they were circumcised -- that is strictly an Acts 15:1-4 heresy refuted by the Apostles



so what?

Is it your belief that all mankind had perished except for the offspring of Abraham in the OT?
They all perish without Jesus and that obviously includes the Old testament sinners as well as the New Testament sinners.

Will you answer my question now that I have answered yours.

Is circumcision an eternal command given to Israel?
 
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klutedavid

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There is no command NT or OT that gentiles be circumcised in order to be saved..

That is an Acts 15:1-5 heresy to claim otherwise and the Apostles refuted it.



And in Acts 16:1-6 we see Timothy agrees to be circumcised.

But that does not mean gentiles could not be saved in the NT without being circumcised.

Just as the side detail that "some gentiles" in the OT were circumcised does not mean that "gentiles could not be saved in the NT without being circumcised"



failing to actual quote the text of Acts 15:1 ... so we can all see just how related it is to the idea that "gentiles must be circumcised to be saved" as "if" that were OT or NT doctrine... we find this.

Acts 15:1
Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

That would be heresy -- NT or OT.. you seem to think it is pretty good bible doctrine for gentiles possibly in the OT



Because Acts 15:1 speaks specifically to heresy of their day and brings out a point you have now insisted upon for gentiles in ... (not sure when??? the OT??)

Acts 15:1
Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

Whereas I insist that heresy as stated in Acts 15:1 was always heresy and as Gal 1:6-9 states "There is only ONE Gospel" and Gal 3:8 "that Gospel was preached to Abraham" and it is NOT the gospel that "all gentiles have to be circumcised to be saved"
Your purposely ignoring the rest of the text (Acts 15:5). Your desperately applying an interpretation to Acts 15:1 to avoid the implication of Acts 15:5.

Your condensing Acts 15 into just one claim. That circumcision was required for salvation was the only point that the apostles addressed.

That is simply not true. The apostles were responding to the joint claim.

Acts 15:5
But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”

Your textbook omits Acts 15:5.

Your following an interpretation of Acts 15 which I have seen before and you are not alone.
 
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Studyman

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Amen!



So studyman I hope you see what you should NOT do -- you should NOT leave!

Keep up the good focus on Bible truth!! :)

I’m not leaving. It’s just that the conversation has become vain, IMO.

And don’t let them bully you on Acts 15.

They ignore that the Pharisees were not teaching the Law of Moses. They were teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men and calling it the Law of Moses. Peter knew this, but they do not.

The Yoke the fathers couldn’t bear was not the instructions of God, but the deception and false religion that had led Gods people astray for centuries.

When Peter finally got around to instruct them, he told them to obey 4 of the commandments of God and implied they would learn The rest of the Bible from Moses every Sabbath.

Notice that this instruction given to those Gentiles was the exact same instructions Jesus gave His Disciples in the beginning of Matt. 23.

Only do what they read, just don’t do what they do, because they say and do not.

Thanks for the encouraging words.

With His Love

SM
 
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klutedavid

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I’m not leaving. It’s just that the conversation has become vain, IMO.
Not vain, the conversation is for those that know the scripture and a time to correct.
And don’t let them bully you on Acts 15.
Bob is quoting from Acts 15:1 and ignoring the law of Moses mentioned in Acts 15:5. To achieve his goal of ignoring circumcision but maintaining the law of Moses.
They ignore that the Pharisees were not teaching the Law of Moses. They were teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men and calling it the Law of Moses. Peter knew this, but they do not.
The text does not mention that point of yours.
The Yoke the fathers couldn’t bear was not the instructions of God, but the deception and false religion that had led Gods people astray for centuries.
Not correct, the Pharisees were quoting circumcision from the law of Moses. As well as promoting the law of Moses. No mention of any additional teaching apart from the law of Moses. You may be introducing your interpretation onto the text.

All you need to do is quote from Acts 15 where the Pharisees are guilty of some extra legal requirement.
When Peter finally got around to instruct them, he told them to obey 4 of the commandments of God and implied they would learn The rest of the Bible from Moses every Sabbath.
I thought that was James not Peter.

The commandment against sexual immorality is certainly not the law against adultery in the ten commandments.
Notice that this instruction given to those Gentiles was the exact same instructions Jesus gave His Disciples in the beginning of Matt. 23.
I will have to check that one later. That surely would not be correct.
Only do what they read, just don’t do what they do, because they say and do not.
Another accusation. How would you know this to be the case?

Your making a lot of mistakes in your posts and far too many accusations.
 
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BobRyan

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I’m not leaving. It’s just that the conversation has become vain, IMO.

And don’t let them bully you on Acts 15.

They ignore that the Pharisees were not teaching the Law of Moses. They were teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men and calling it the Law of Moses. Peter knew this, but they do not.

The Yoke the fathers couldn’t bear was not the instructions of God, but the deception and false religion that had led Gods people astray for centuries.

When Peter finally got around to instruct them, he told them to obey 4 of the commandments of God and implied they would learn The rest of the Bible from Moses every Sabbath.

Notice that this instruction given to those Gentiles was the exact same instructions Jesus gave His Disciples in the beginning of Matt. 23.

Only do what they read, just don’t do what they do, because they say and do not.

Thanks for the encouraging words.

With His Love

SM

Amen to that!
 
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BobRyan

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Bob is quoting from Acts 15:1 and ignoring the law of Moses mentioned in Acts 15:5.

You may want to re-think that.

Acts 15:1 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

The writing of Moses is in Acts 15. But requiring that gentiles be circumcised was not in what Moses wrote. And as I always say "the NEW Covenant" writes "the LAW of God on heart and mind " Jer 31:31-34 which includes that unit of TEN where "The first commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment Eph 6:2.

Mark 7:6-13 "Moses said" == "Commandment of God" == "Word of God"... according to Christ because 2 Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture is inspired by God" rather than "inspired by Moses"
 
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BobRyan

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They all perish without Jesus and that obviously includes the Old testament sinners as well as the New Testament sinners.

Anyone without Jesus perishes.

Moses AND Elijah stand WITH Jesus before the cross... in glory... in Matt 17.


Is circumcision an eternal command given to Israel?

No one will be circumcising people in heaven .. is that what you are asking?
 
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klutedavid

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Anyone without Jesus perishes.

Moses AND Elijah stand WITH Jesus before the cross... in glory... in Matt 17.




No one will be circumcising people in heaven .. is that what you are asking?
Was circumcision an eternal commandment for Israel?
 
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Studyman

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The text does not mention that point of yours.

I must humbly and respectfully disagree with you.

The Pharisees and Mainstream Preachers of that time were teaching for doctrines the commandments of men, transgressing the commandments of God by their own ancient religious traditions. At least according to the Christ of the bible, and I believe HIM. They claimed to be Abraham's Children, they claimed to preach the Law of Moses, but if one believes the actual "text" of the Bible, it becomes overwhelmingly clear that they were not.

To believe your religion in this matter I must somehow believe that the Pharisees, who in Acts 7 according to Stephen who was filled with the Holy Spirit, said:

51. Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Now all the sudden in Acts 15, these Pharisees were suddenly obedient servants of God? All the sudden they began preaching the Law of Moses? Am I to believe that the Pharisees suddenly turned away from the religious Traditions and doctrines of men they taught for centuries, and were now trying to get the Gentiles to "Love the Lord thy God with all their hearts? That these Pharisees were suddenly teaching the New Converts to "Love thy neighbor as thyself? These are the "Weightier Matters" of the Law of Moses according to Jesus, are they not? I'm sorry, I just don't believe your teaching in this matter.

It seems Peter didn't believe they were either.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

What Yoke was this? In your religion, did God send the Prophets to the Shepherds of Israel because they were teaching the Law of Moses? Or because they had corrupted the Law of Moses and were leading God's People astray?

What did Jesus say about the Yoke the Pharisees placed on the necks of HIS People?

Matt. 23:4 For they (Pharisees, not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

So I understand how popular the doctrine you are promoting regarding acts 15 is in the religion I was born into. That there were religious men trying to get the New Converts to obey God's Laws to be saved, but the Apostles taught against such behavior.

But the Bible itself disagrees with this religious belief.

13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, (Law of Moses) and from fornication, (Law of Moses) and from things strangled,(Law of Moses) and from blood. (Law of Moses)

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

And this is the same instruction Jesus gave to the people and to His Disciples.

Matt. 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

I am open to discussion on this matter. I have asked some questions of you if you are interested in engaging. My issue is with the ancient religious doctrine, nothing personal with you.
 
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I’m not leaving. It’s just that the conversation has become vain, IMO.

And don’t let them bully you on Acts 15.

They ignore that the Pharisees were not teaching the Law of Moses. They were teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men and calling it the Law of Moses. Peter knew this, but they do not.

The Yoke the fathers couldn’t bear was not the instructions of God, but the deception and false religion that had led Gods people astray for centuries.

When Peter finally got around to instruct them, he told them to obey 4 of the commandments of God and implied they would learn The rest of the Bible from Moses every Sabbath.

Notice that this instruction given to those Gentiles was the exact same instructions Jesus gave His Disciples in the beginning of Matt. 23.

Only do what they read, just don’t do what they do, because they say and do not.

Thanks for the encouraging words.

With His Love

SM
Really? The law of Moses says "You must be circumcised and keep the law." What you're talking about is NOT written in Acts 15. Where does Paul say that Pharisees was not teaching the law of Moses? That's added commentary to confuse the facts that the Apostles did not send them to teach the law.

Act 15:24 For as much as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
 
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Studyman

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Really? The law of Moses says "You must be circumcised and keep the law."
What you're talking about is NOT written in Acts 15. Where does Paul say that Pharisees was not teaching the law of Moses? That's added commentary to confuse the facts that the Apostles did not send them to teach the law.

Act 15:24 For as much as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

What Law? You are preaching the they were teaching Gods law. But the entire Bible teaches they were not.

Paul says he believes the law and prophets. But he didn’t believe in the Pharisees religion.

so why are you supporting the Pharisees religion and not the Christ’s
 
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YouAreAwesome

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you supporting the Pharisees religion and not the Christ’s

Wait, hang on,

A. Pharisees teach extra laws beyond the Mosaic Law
B. Some teach the Mosaic Law was nailed to the cross and is forever and completely obsolete in the life of a New Covenant believer

You seem to be saying A=B, what have I missed?
 
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HARK!

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There were no Jews in the time of Noah.


(CLV) Ac 15:20
but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood.



Leviticus 17
7 No longer shall they sacrifice their sacrifices to hairy goat-demons after whom they have been prostituting. An eonian statute shall this become for them throughout their generations. 8 To them you shall say:Any man from the house of Israel or from the sojourners who sojourn in your midst who should offer an ascent offering or a sacrifice 9 and not bring it to the opening of the tent of appointment to offer it to Yahweh, that man will be cut off from his kinsmen. 10 As for any man from the house of Israel and from the sojourners sojourning in your midst who should eat any blood, I will set My face against the soul eating blood, and I will cut him off from among his people, 11 for the soul of the flesh, it is in the blood, and I Myself have assigned it to you to make a propitiatory shelter over your souls on the altar; for the blood, in the soul it makes a propitiatory shelter. 12 Therefore I say to the sons of Israel:No soul at all of you shall eat blood; nor shall the sojourner sojourning in your midst eat blood. 13 Any man from the sons of Israel and from the sojourners sojourning in your midst who hunt a game animal or a flyer which may be eaten will pour out its blood and cover it with soil, 14 for the soul of all flesh is its blood; as its soul is it. So I said to the sons of Israel:The blood of any flesh you shall not eat, for the soul of all flesh, it is its blood. Everyone eating it shall be cut off.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

 
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There were no Jews in the time of Noah.


(CLV) Ac 15:20
but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood.



Leviticus 17
7 No longer shall they sacrifice their sacrifices to hairy goat-demons after whom they have been prostituting. An eonian statute shall this become for them throughout their generations. 8 To them you shall say:Any man from the house of Israel or from the sojourners who sojourn in your midst who should offer an ascent offering or a sacrifice 9 and not bring it to the opening of the tent of appointment to offer it to Yahweh, that man will be cut off from his kinsmen. 10 As for any man from the house of Israel and from the sojourners sojourning in your midst who should eat any blood, I will set My face against the soul eating blood, and I will cut him off from among his people, 11 for the soul of the flesh, it is in the blood, and I Myself have assigned it to you to make a propitiatory shelter over your souls on the altar; for the blood, in the soul it makes a propitiatory shelter. 12 Therefore I say to the sons of Israel:No soul at all of you shall eat blood; nor shall the sojourner sojourning in your midst eat blood. 13 Any man from the sons of Israel and from the sojourners sojourning in your midst who hunt a game animal or a flyer which may be eaten will pour out its blood and cover it with soil, 14 for the soul of all flesh is its blood; as its soul is it. So I said to the sons of Israel:The blood of any flesh you shall not eat, for the soul of all flesh, it is its blood. Everyone eating it shall be cut off.

(CLV) Lk 16:17

Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.
Hello Hark, i dont get your point...you think Jews are Not human beings? When God made the covenant with Noah and his sons in Genesis 9 they were the only human beings survive on the earth..so all people whether Jews or Gentiles are All descendants of Noah...
So James in Acts 15:20 is giving the gentiles the instructions to follow which similar to what God original gave to humans after the flood. Not about the law of Moses only for the children of Israel.
 
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klutedavid

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There is no command NT or OT that gentiles be circumcised in order to be saved..

That is an Acts 15:1-5 heresy to claim otherwise and the Apostles refuted it.



And in Acts 16:1-6 we see Timothy agrees to be circumcised.

But that does not mean gentiles could not be saved in the NT without being circumcised.

Just as the side detail that "some gentiles" in the OT were circumcised does not mean that "gentiles could not be saved in the NT without being circumcised"



failing to actual quote the text of Acts 15:1 ... so we can all see just how related it is to the idea that "gentiles must be circumcised to be saved" as "if" that were OT or NT doctrine... we find this.

Acts 15:1
Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

That would be heresy -- NT or OT.. you seem to think it is pretty good bible doctrine for gentiles possibly in the OT



Because Acts 15:1 speaks specifically to heresy of their day and brings out a point you have now insisted upon for gentiles in ... (not sure when??? the OT??)

Acts 15:1
Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

Whereas I insist that heresy as stated in Acts 15:1 was always heresy and as Gal 1:6-9 states "There is only ONE Gospel" and Gal 3:8 "that Gospel was preached to Abraham" and it is NOT the gospel that "all gentiles have to be circumcised to be saved"
Sometimes you confuse me.

The law states that you must be circumcised.

So are you under the law or not?
 
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I must humbly and respectfully disagree with you.

The Pharisees and Mainstream Preachers of that time were teaching for doctrines the commandments of men, transgressing the commandments of God by their own ancient religious traditions. At least according to the Christ of the bible, and I believe HIM. They claimed to be Abraham's Children, they claimed to preach the Law of Moses, but if one believes the actual "text" of the Bible, it becomes overwhelmingly clear that they were not.

To believe your religion in this matter I must somehow believe that the Pharisees, who in Acts 7 according to Stephen who was filled with the Holy Spirit, said:

51. Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Now all the sudden in Acts 15, these Pharisees were suddenly obedient servants of God? All the sudden they began preaching the Law of Moses? Am I to believe that the Pharisees suddenly turned away from the religious Traditions and doctrines of men they taught for centuries, and were now trying to get the Gentiles to "Love the Lord thy God with all their hearts? That these Pharisees were suddenly teaching the New Converts to "Love thy neighbor as thyself? These are the "Weightier Matters" of the Law of Moses according to Jesus, are they not? I'm sorry, I just don't believe your teaching in this matter.

It seems Peter didn't believe they were either.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

What Yoke was this? In your religion, did God send the Prophets to the Shepherds of Israel because they were teaching the Law of Moses? Or because they had corrupted the Law of Moses and were leading God's People astray?

What did Jesus say about the Yoke the Pharisees placed on the necks of HIS People?

Matt. 23:4 For they (Pharisees, not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

So I understand how popular the doctrine you are promoting regarding acts 15 is in the religion I was born into. That there were religious men trying to get the New Converts to obey God's Laws to be saved, but the Apostles taught against such behavior.

But the Bible itself disagrees with this religious belief.

13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, (Law of Moses) and from fornication, (Law of Moses) and from things strangled,(Law of Moses) and from blood. (Law of Moses)

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

And this is the same instruction Jesus gave to the people and to His Disciples.

Matt. 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

I am open to discussion on this matter. I have asked some questions of you if you are interested in engaging. My issue is with the ancient religious doctrine, nothing personal with you.
Read this passage again that you quoted.

Matthew 23:1-3
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat
: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

The Pharisees were experts on the law.

The Pharisees interpreted the law.

The Pharisees added oral tradition to the law.

The Pharisees taught the law.

The Pharisees were external in their dedication to God.

They were cold and unsympathetic to sinners.

The Pharisees enforced the law.

Paul was a Pharisee before his conversion and a passionate Pharisee to say the least.

The early Christian church had Pharisees in attendance as we see in Acts 15.

Once again, the issue in the text (Acts 15) is not about additions to, or the interpretation of the law. The issue was whether Gentiles needed to be under the law to be Christians. As all the apostles and Jesus Himself were under the law.

A very fair question to say the least and no wonder that everyone gathered, to solve this vexing question.

The decision of the council arrived after considerable debate, I might add.

Peter stated in earlier days that Gentiles became Christians and received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:15
Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy."

God told Peter that a Gentile is holy and cleansed by believing in Jesus.

Peter knew that God reconciled Gentiles without the law and so did Paul.
 
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