Was King David Saved While He Committed His Sins of Adultery and Murder?

[ronandcarol]

I do believe that King David was forgiven and will be in Heaven.
1John;1-9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
God's wonderful words are Good-News to all sinners ears. There are many who have fallen much farther than King David, but God's Love for us is far reaching.
ronandcarol

 

[mark kennedy]

If you talk about Hebrews 6:4-6, you HAVE to bring King David into the conversation to prove your point, otherwise you are going off topic and interrupting the thread. Continually mentioning Hebrews 6:4-6 without mentioning David is to talk about Hebrews 6:4-6 and not King David in regards to this topic.

I've comnented on David and you ignored it, I keep reminding you of Hebrews 6:4-5 because you keep insisting David lost his salvation and that text tells us if he did it was impossible to br restored to repentance. I have addressed the topic and you just keep repeating that unbiblical mantra of yours endlessly in circles. I'm not the one trying to derail the thread, You just don't understand how the New Testament describes it, you seem to think God turns it on and off like a spicket. When you found you had no answer for Hebrews 6:4-6 you tried everything available to silence the point that shot down you false premise except your tactics failed again.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I've comnented on David and you ignored it, I keep reminding you of Hebrews 6:4-5 because you keep insisting David lost his salvation and that text tells us if he did it was impossible to br restored to repentance. I have addressed the topic and you just keep repeating that unbiblical mantra of yours endlessly in circkes. I'm not the one trying to retail1 the thread, You just don't understand how the New Testament describes it, you seem to think God turns it on and off like a spicket. When you found you had no answer for Hebrews 6:4-6 you tried everything avsilable to silence the point that shot down you false oremise except your tactics failed again.

What post # did you comment on David? I have made several points with Scripture in defense of my position with David and you did not address them. If you did, I did not see the post. Oh, and you have failed to connect Hebrews 6:4-6 with David's situation of sin. You just keep talking about Hebrews 6:4-6. You are disrupting the thread. Please stop. I created a thread for Hebrews 6:4-6. Please go there and discuss and be kind and respectful please.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I do believe that King David was forgiven and will be in Heaven.
1John;1-9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
God's wonderful words are Good-News to all sinners ears. There are many who have fallen much farther than King David, but God's Love for us is far reaching.
ronandcarol

Yes, I believe David is saved, too.
I think it is BY his confession of sin to God that he was forgiven or saved again.
However, when David was committing his sins of adultery and murder, during that time, he was not saved. Only when he confessed of his sins was he saved again.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You can as David pointed out in the text.

That is why I said sin is the poison which can crush the joy God wants us to have abundantly.

He was asking for forgiveness because he did not have it.
No doubt this relates to him not having salvation; Because he was asking for that back, too.

Rick can say: Return to me the joy of my house back. For I really miss that house.
We know perfectly well that Rick wants his house back. He lost it in some way.
In David's case, it was in regards to salvation.

 

[DeeR.]

Hebrews 11:39-40 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised,since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. Hebrews 12:6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."
We should consider that it is God's message to speak to us in time.
They had faith/hope in what they did not yet have but are credited it by faith. They were sons & daughters by faith & will be the bride and no longer children one day. God uses many past present and future tenses and also out of time teachings. We should not completely dismiss these as it does not teach the whole message. We are in time God does not say merely You already are and all is done. He also says it will be and is not yet. God made the world and time and they exist as does the law still even though Grace is better. The law and time etc all are a part of God's plan & journey and have appropriate places. David was accepted as a son of God and has never left that place but will one day be made perfect, when all is brought to fruition, along with us. We have that hope but hope that is already given is no hope at all. We Hope because God tells us to Hope until it is complete. He tells us it is complete where He is and where we Will be. So in that we believe and receive what we need to enter in THE WAY to the completion which is guaranteed for all who are His.
1 Corinthians 4:11-18 For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you. It is written: "I believed; therefore I have spoken." Since we have that same spirit of faith, we also believe and therefore speak,because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself.All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly WE ARE wastING away, yet inwardly WE ARE BEING renewed day by day.For our light and momentary troubles Are AchievING for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

 

[ClementofA]

As I said before, no Christian is going to seek to disobey God in anything. They are going to want to obey all of Christ's commands because they love Him (See John 14:15). Those who really do not love Jesus, will seek to justify their sin and or wrong doing in some way.

Jason, you've contradicted that in saying if you believed you would be saved after going to a temporary hell, then you would sin to your heart's content, eat ice cream, watch Star Trek movies, etc.

Likewise, based on the same reasoning, you'ld have no motivation to cease from sins which you do not think will cause you to lose salvation & be annihilated forever.

Therefore, anyone following your thinking, is being given a licence to sin.

You say going over the speed limit is not a sin that causes loss of salvation. So to anyone who loves to commit that sin, & accepts your doctrine, they have a licence to sin.

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

Yes, it does. If not, then you have contradiction with 1 John 2:4.

“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).

I think you have misunderstood me.

I did not say that to continue sinning and say I am sinless by Christ Jesus. I do not believe you can keep sinning and say I am sinless by Christ Jesus. That is hypocrisy.

There is no contradiction between what I said and 1 John 2:4 because I fully intend to and do keep his commandments.

I do not know why you did not understand this because I have plainly stated that I believe we ought not to sin. I do not believe in willfully continuing in sin and excusing ourselves crying, grace, grace; because that is mocking the gift of God.

I reiterate the point I was making. According to the commandment David was not saved but according to mercy [remembering that God said, I desire mercy and not sacrifice] David was saved because it was what God intended and David's heart was set toward this.

This is the wonderful conundrum of God's character and it is also the point of the Gospel. Ignore his mercy at your own peril. If David had not responded favourably to God's mercy he was already condemned because he had committed the act. However David was not condemned because God chose to show his mercy over a period leading to David's repentance. Therefore David was saved by mercy.

Because you choose only to regard the commandment you say David was not saved; however I regard both the commandment and the mercy of God and I see that he was saved and I understand this because I believe God when he says, salvation belongs to The Lord [him:God].

Now you choose to bear false witness against me saying that I believe you can claim to be saved and just continue sinning because of grace. Yet I have continually said a christian ought not to sin and that it is indeed possible by Christ Jesus to be sinless; not merely by imputation but in practise.

David did what is required of us all. There is no record that he repeated this offense. He stopped sinning. If David had said to himself, hah, I got away with it once I can do it again. After all God is merciful, isn't he? There would have come a time when God's mercy would no longer be available and David would not have had salvation.

So it appears your angst is not against what God did for David but those who seem to show that they think they can get away with continuing in sin.

I had such a man speak to me once, and he said, "If a beautiful woman propositioned me I would go with her and repent afterwards because God would forgive me."

I replied, "You would not find forgiveness because your heart is not honest."

God looks for those who will serve him in truth and sincerity. Do not play with the things of God for it will destroy you.

Now I will try to find that long list of questions you asked me and see if I can continue answering them.

 

[mark kennedy]

What post # did you comment on David? I have made several points with Scripture in defense of my position with David and you did not address them. If you did, I did not see the post. Oh, and you have failed to connect Hebrews 6:4-6 with David's situation of sin. You just keep talking about Hebrews 6:4-6. You are disrupting the thread. Please stop. I created a thread for Hebrews 6:4-6. Please go there and discuss and be kind and respectful please.

Fitst a circular question, your favorite fallacous rhetoric I've noticed. The obvious connection between David losing his salvation and Hebrews 6:4-6 stating plainly if you were to lose salvation it's impossible to be restored to repentance. Wgile were at it why stop at adultery and murder because a lustful look is adultery and calling your brother a fool is worse then murder according to Jesus in the sermon on the nount.

So when do you become a sinner Jason, at birth or when you actually commit a sinfull act? If you can lose salvation the first time you look at a woman with lust in your heart what makes a person a sinner in the first place. Are you a sinner Jason? Because David confessed in sin did my mother concieve me so he was a sinner at birth. He never disclosed the murders of Joab until his death bed so he was lost all that time?

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

1 John 3:9 is talking about the Gnostic belief of 1 John 1:8 who thought they could sin without impunity because they do not think sin exists. It is talking about willful sin or sin done whereby someone is seeking to justify it. A person who is in the born again state and abiding in Christ cannot have this kind of mindset on sin because Christ does not have such a mindset on sin like that. 1 Corinthians 2:16 says we have the mind of Christ.

Rather than dispute what you say let's see how David fits into your interpretation.

Does David fit this: "The Gnostic belief of 1 John 1:8 who thought they could sin without impunity because they do not think sin exists."

Did David seek to justify his sin? Particularly when confronted by the prophet.

What was David's mindset on sin? Did David ever say sin doesn't matter, or it doesn't count?

[Remember David had a covenant with God. He could have said, I have a covenant therefore nothing else counts.]

The Bible clearly states that David's mindset was toward God or, as God said, I have found a man after my own heart.

Was David a murderer [always intent on murder, loving the bloodlust] or did he simply fall into temptation as we may and commit a murder?

I would say, from looking at David's character and his conversation that this experience was out of character for David: it was not part of his make-up. Would you not have sought to restore him? Would you have considered him lost and condemned? It would tell a lot about you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think you have misunderstood me.

I did not say that to continue sinning and say I am sinless by Christ Jesus. I do not believe you can keep sinning and say I am sinless by Christ Jesus. That is hypocrisy.

There is no contradiction between what I said and 1 John 2:4 because I fully intend to and do keep his commandments.

I do not know why you did not understand this because I have plainly stated that I believe we ought not to sin. I do not believe in willfully continuing in sin and excusing ourselves crying, grace, grace; because that is mocking the gift of God.

I reiterate the point I was making. According to the commandment David was not saved but according to mercy [remembering that God said, I desire mercy and not sacrifice] David was saved because it was what God intended and David's heart was set toward this.

This is the wonderful conundrum of God's character and it is also the point of the Gospel. Ignore his mercy at your own peril. If David had not responded favourably to God's mercy he was already condemned because he had committed the act. However David was not condemned because God chose to show his mercy over a period leading to David's repentance. Therefore David was saved by mercy.

Because you choose only to regard the commandment you say David was not saved; however I regard both the commandment and the mercy of God and I see that he was saved and I understand this because I believe God when he says, salvation belongs to The Lord [him:God].

Now you choose to bear false witness against me saying that I believe you can claim to be saved and just continue sinning because of grace. Yet I have continually said a christian ought not to sin and that it is indeed possible by Christ Jesus to be sinless; not merely by imputation but in practise.

David did what is required of us all. There is no record that he repeated this offense. He stopped sinning. If David had said to himself, hah, I got away with it once I can do it again. After all God is merciful, isn't he? There would have come a time when God's mercy would no longer be available and David would not have had salvation.

So it appears your angst is not against what God did for David but those who seem to show that they think they can get away with continuing in sin.

I had such a man speak to me once, and he said, "If a beautiful woman propositioned me I would go with her and repent afterwards because God would forgive me."

I replied, "You would not find forgiveness because your heart is not honest."

God looks for those who will serve him in truth and sincerity. Do not play with the things of God for it will destroy you.

Now I will try to find that long list of questions you asked me and see if I can continue answering them.

Do you believe King David was saved in his sins? You no doubt will say... yes. If so, this is still justifying sin whether you like it or not. You reason that if David did not repent right away and he thought he could get away with his sin is when he would lose his salvation. But he was already justifying his sin when he murdered and committed adultery. He thought he could get away with sin. But he was wrong. He needed to seek with God for forgiveness.

There is only one way to forgiveness and that is doing it God’s way. 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9, Psalms 51, Proverbs 28:13, Matthew 12:41, cf. Jonah 3:6-10.

 

[mark kennedy]

Do you believe King David was saved in his sins? You no doubt will say... yes. If so, this is still justifying sin whether you like it or not. You reason that if David did not repent right away and he thought he could get away with his sin is when he would lose his salvation. But he was already justifying his sin when he murdered and committed adultery. He thought he could get away with sin. But he was wrong. He needed to seek with God for forgiveness.

There is only one way to forgiveness and that is doing it God’s way. 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9, Psalms 51, Proverbs 28:13, Matthew 12:41, cf. Jonah 3:6-10.

You really know how to dodge a question. Was the sin when he gazed at her from his roof, sent for her and had sex, or when he had her husband effectively murdered? What conatitutes a sin Jason, he was pretty clear and you are talking in circles around the question.

 

[redleghunter]

He was asking for forgiveness because he did not have it.
No doubt this relates to him not having salvation; Because he was asking for that back, too.

Rick can say: Return to me the joy of my house back. For I really miss that house.
We know perfectly well that Rick wants his house back. He lost it in some way.
In David's case, it was in regards to salvation.

He still said “12Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,”

The joy is the subject of the sentence.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m a proponent that one cannot enjoy the fullness of God’s Joy and assurance unless we are walking in the Spirit and partake of His fruits. Sin truly does poison the joy we have in Christ. Which is why self examination daily and often daily is paramount to walking in the Spirit.

On the flip side of the same coin, thinking we lose our salvation with each transgression permanently zaps the joy we are to have in Christ.

 

[redleghunter]

Because you choose only to regard the commandment you say David was not saved; however I regard both the commandment and the mercy of God and I see that he was saved and I understand this because I believe God when he says, salvation belongs to The Lord [him:God].

Amen well said.

 

[DeeR.]

Do you believe King David was saved in his sins? You no doubt will say... yes. If so, this is still justifying sin whether you like it or not....

The issue is not that David was or was not sinning or that saying he was saved even when he sinned means that is justifying sin.
The matter is that God tells us that we remain His (if we are His) child and He disciplines us when we do wrong as a Father. He says he accepts us as children if He disciplines us.

Hebrews 11 :
My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all.

We are not His children when we are good and disowned when we are bad. He disciplines us as His own and we do not go back and forth. We must test our faith to see if it is genuine. All the scripture you are quoting are not talking about losing His guaranteed seal.
Hebrews 7:25
Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
Here is is talking about those who HAVE COME TO GOD and that Salvation has already begun.

 

[Oldmantook]

But Hebrews 6 is not addressing habitual sin. It addresses those who were once enlightened and knew the Gospel but looked elsewhere for their salvation.

The Greek words for "crucify" and "shame" in Heb 6:6 are "anastaurountas" and "paradeigmatizontas" - both of which are present tense participles. These present tense participles in the Greek indicate ongoing/continuous action thus better translated as CRUCIFYING and SHAMING. These actions indicate ongoing/habitual sin. Thus the verse itself states that it is impossible to renew them to repentance SINCE/BECAUSE they are crucifying and shaming Christ = habitual sin.

 

[DeeR.]

The issue is not that David was or was not sinning or that saying he was saved even when he sinned means that is justifying sin.
The matter is that God tells us that we remain His (if we are His) child and He disciplines us when we do wrong as a Father. He says he accepts us as children if He disciplines us.

Hebrews 11 :
My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all.

We are not His children when we are good and disowned when we are bad. He disciplines us as His own and we do not go back and forth. We must test our faith to see if it is genuine.

The issue is not that David was or was not sinning or that saying he was saved even when he sinned means that is justifying sin.
The matter is that God tells us that we remain His (if we are His) child and He disciplines us when we do wrong as a Father. He says he accepts us as children if He disciplines us.

Hebrews 11 :
My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all.

We are not His children when we are good and disowned when we are bad. He disciplines us as His own and we do not go back and forth. We must test our faith to see if it is genuine. All the scripture you are quoting are not talking about losing His guaranteed seal.
Hebrews 7:25
Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
Here is is talking about those who HAVE COME TO GOD and that Salvation has already begun. We are either truly saved or not. What happens when we fall or sin as a Child of God is that we become unclean and must be washed, we harm and lose closeness and become unholy and need to wash. We are disciplined and corrected, but still always His.

 

[DeeR.]

The Greek words for "crucify" and "shame" in Heb 6:6 are "anastaurountas" and "paradeigmatizontas" - both of which are present tense participles. These present tense participles in the Greek indicate ongoing/continuous action thus better translated as CRUCIFYING and SHAMING. These actions indicate ongoing/habitual sin. Thus the verse itself states that it is impossible to renew them to repentance SINCE/BECAUSE they are crucifying and shaming Christ = habitual sin.

There is more than one verse in the bible. While present tense is in one passage, it is written that we must die daily which is continual. Scripture is a whole and not a series of independent verses. Debating what it means to be separated from God forever is another issue. Since the scripture also says that if they were truly one of us they would have remained until the end... teaches us that if we are truly His we Will remain and can not be lost. That too is the word of God and can not be dismissed.

 

[Neogaia777]

The Greek words for "crucify" and "shame" in Heb 6:6 are "anastaurountas" and "paradeigmatizontas" - both of which are present tense participles. These present tense participles in the Greek indicate ongoing/continuous action thus better translated as CRUCIFYING and SHAMING. These actions indicate ongoing/habitual sin. Thus the verse itself states that it is impossible to renew them to repentance SINCE/BECAUSE they are crucifying and shaming Christ = habitual sin.

What about Glorifying...?

 

[DeeR.]

There is more than one verse in the bible. While present tense is in one passage, it is written that we must die daily which is continual. Scripture is a whole and not a series of independent verses. Debating what it means to be separated from God forever is another issue. Since the scripture also says that if they were truly one of us they would have remained until the end... teaches us that if we are truly His we Will remain and can not be lost. That too is the word of God and can not be dismissed.

It is written And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.