Was King David Saved While He Committed His Sins of Adultery and Murder?

[redleghunter]

I already wrote that habitual sin is the evidence of no repentance and therefore no forgiveness. Are you suggesting that one stuck in habitual now has no opportunity to repent in the future should he/she cease sinning and turn to Christ??

But Hebrews 6 is not addressing habitual sin. It addresses those who were once enlightened and knew the Gospel but looked elsewhere for their salvation.

 

[Oldmantook]

Where is the explicit teaching in Holy Scriptures that souls who have been regenerated lose their justification and imputed righteousness from God through and in Christ?

Let me first ask you a simple question. Do not the scriptures EXPLICITLY warn you that should you take the mark of the beast, you will suffer eternal torment? Would you still have Jesus' 'imputed' righteousness then? If you evade answering this question, possess a crystal ball and are 100% certain that you would never take the mark and thus deny Christ, just remember that Peter who walked and talked with Jesus daily was absolutely certain that he would not deny Christ; yet we all know what happened to Peter. And why would you not take it? After all, don't you believe that you can never lose you justification??

That is why we are admonished to continue in the faith - if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. Col 1:23
The word "if" indicates only the possibility - not the certainty - that one will in fact continue in the faith. "If indicates a condition - stable, steadfast, not shifting - that must be met by us in order to continue in the faith.

The Apostle Paul warned the brethren in Rome that if they live according to the flesh (habitual sin), they will die (Rom 8:13). The Apostle James wrote: "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. " Js 5:19-20
The Apostle John wrote "Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil.... 1 Jn 3:7-8

The numerous warnings in Scripture against apostatizing from the faith are written to believers; not unbelievers. It is impossible for an unbeliever to depart from the faith since he/she was never a part of the faith to begin with. The notion that true believers can never die spiritually and lose their justification/salvation is a lie. It is just another lie from Satan - the same lie that the serpent spoke to Eve in Gen 3:4 "You will not certainly die," the serpent said to the woman."
Don't believe the lie.

 

[Oldmantook]

But Hebrews 6 is not addressing habitual sin. It addresses those who were once enlightened and knew the Gospel but looked elsewhere for their salvation.

I suggest you read Heb 6:6. Does it not plainly state that it was impossible to renew them to repentance SINCE they were shaming/crucifying Christ? The word "since" points to the exact reason it was impossible to renew them. Since the verse interprets itself, we need not look any further.

 

[mark kennedy]

Unrelated passage to the topic of discussion of this thread. Please start another thread if you want to continue to talk about Hebrews 6:4-6. We are talking about King David on whether or not he was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder. We need passages or verses that are more directly in line with his situation. Hebrews 6:4-6 is unrelated because it is talking about apostasy and not backsliding.

No Jason, it's not, it's an if then proposition specifically related to losing salvation due to adultry or murder. If for whatever reason you were to lose salvation you cannot be restored to repentance. Just because you have no answer for this doesn't mean it's off topic. I take it the commenrary you've looked at has yeilded little if anything to support the premise your try to argue. A similar verse describes repentance and being crucified with Christ vicariously Romans 6:9-10. He cannot die again, the death of Christ was a once and for alll time event in redemptive history. Hebrews 6:4-6 tells us the apostasy that results from falling away from the faith is a permanent condition.

 

[Oldmantook]

John is describing same person as in Hebrews 6, someone who professed Jesus saved them, but did not have the actual rebirth experience!

There are numerous scriptures that warn against apostatizing. They are only addressed to genuine believers. You would have to explain to me how an unsaved person who is not part of the faith can depart/apostatize from something he was never a part of. That is an impossibility.

 

[ToBeLoved]

But Hebrews 6 is not addressing habitual sin. It addresses those who were once enlightened and knew the Gospel but looked elsewhere for their salvation.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Let's get back to the topic of the thread again in regards to whether or not King David being saved in his sins of adultery and murder.

1 John 3:15 is one of such verse that holds the key to our understanding on this.
For it says, "NO MURDERER has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

Now, I don't know about you, but I cannot in good conscience change what this verse says. It tells me that anyone who is a murderer (unrepentant murderer - obviously), they do not have have eternal life abiding in them. That is what this verse says to me. What do you think it says?

Nothing in God’s Word shows David unrepentant. As a matter of fact, God fives him one of the greatest compliments saying he is a man after his own heart.

Since after repentance, sin is cast as far as the east is from the west by God, never to be brought up again.

I don’t believe King David guilty of 1 John 3:15 because I believe he repented.

So, in his repentance the sin of murder has been forgiven

 

[ToBeLoved]

I suggest you read Heb 6:6. Does it not plainly state that it was impossible to renew them to repentance SINCE they were shaming/crucifying Christ? The word "since" points to the exact reason it was impossible to renew them. Since the verse interprets itself, we need not look any further.

Before I would live and die by the word “since” in one English translation, I would look at a Parralel Bible with different English translations or Greek.

I wouldn’t hang my hat one one insignificant word like since that I only see in the ESV

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Nothing in God’s Word shows David unrepentant. As a matter of fact, God fives him one of the greatest compliments saying he is a man after his own heart.

Since after repentance, sin is cast as far as the east is from the west by God, never to be brought up again.

I don’t believe King David guilty of 1 John 3:15 because I believe he repented.

So, in his repentance the sin of murder has been forgiven

I believe David was forgiven when he repented (confessed), too.
But he was not saved WHILE he was committing those sins, though.
He did not confess yet of those sins.

 

[mark kennedy]

Which allows for the plausible question of whether or not such a person truly trusted in Grace in the first place.

In Hebrews 6:9 the writer expresses that he is convinced of better things of them, things that accompany salvation. These people had been Christians for years, probably decades. He seems frustrated that it's nessacary to go over basic doctrine again, they had anple time to mature in the faith. The theme is Christ is greater then the angels, Moses , the High Priest and the all important sanctuary. They would look to the Temple in the old covenant because God dwelled there. Now God dwells in the hearts of believers and the church is being built up as the body of Christ wherein the Holy Spirit dwells. 1 Corinthians 12 deals with this at length for Gentiles, Hebrews is expressing the same thing from a more Jewish perspective. It reminds me a lot of Galations with the urgency of not returning to the Old Testament shadows of the substance found only in Christ.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Oldmantook]

Yes, I believe that a Christian who has backslidden into sin can repent (as long as they do not deny Jesus Christ as their Savior or if they stop to believe in Him). The Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15) and James 5:19-20 shows that a Christian can go from a saved state, and then to an unsaved state and back again. Hebrews 6:4-6 is dealing with apostasy (denying Jesus in some way), and not in being temporarily backslidden. I have encountered a Christian who says they backslid and they now cannot repent no matter how hard they try. They say they did not deny Jesus outright (when they backslid). Now, I will not judge this person openly here. God knows their heart and situation ultimately. But it makes me think that it is possible that a Christian not only can reject Christ with their words to depart from the living God, but they can do so with their actions (Much like when how the author of Hebrews was hinting at the fact that if certain Christians went back to the OT sacrificial system to avoid persecution for a temporary time). The Christians who wanted to avoid persecution by going back to becoming a Jew for a while would in effect be denying or rejecting Christ by their actions (Denying His sacrifice and denying Christ for all people), and they would not be able to come back and be able to repent again.

I think that it is not good practice to form our doctrine from the anecdotal experience of one person. I'm not doubting that person's testimony; just that I believe Scripture is the sole means by which doctrine is formed.

Of course we can deny Christ with our mouth as well as our actions. If I renounce Christ verbally, I stand condemned. If I take the mark of the beast, I stand condemned. That is why I'm in humble admiration toward all those who were martyred throughout history for standing firm in the faith. Despite the prospect of death, they neither denied Christ by their words or actions.

However, let's suppose a person is genuinely born-again but later develops a drinking habit. He is now a drunkard and scripture states that no drunkard will ever inherit the kingdom of God. His alcoholic actions have demonstrated that he has fallen away as he is living according to the flesh. Is it not possible for such a person to repent, cease drinking/become sober and seek forgiveness/reconciliation with God again?

The reason that the persons in the Heb 6:4-6 passage are described as impossible to renew to repentance is that they remain in an ongoing state of rebellion as they are still "crucifying/shaming" Christ (v.6). As long as they rebel, they are obviously unrepentant - therefore it is impossible to renew them to repentance. This passage does not speak to the possibility of what would happen if they ceased to rebel against God and truly repented. We must be careful not to overextend what the passage itself does not state. My thinking is that IF they ceased their sin of shaming Christ, and stopped rebelling and sought forgiveness - as did the prodigal son - then the Father would welcome them back.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But Hebrews 6 is not addressing habitual sin. It addresses those who were once enlightened and knew the Gospel but looked elsewhere for their salvation.

We are talking about King David and whether or not he was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder. This thread is not about Hebrews 6:4-6. I created a thread discussion for that here:

What do you think Hebrews 6:4-6 says?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I believe David was forgiven when he repented (confessed), too.
But he was not saved WHILE he was committing those sins, though.
He did not confess yet of those sins.

Really though since David was under the Old Covenant and sin was handled through the Aaronic or Levitical priesthood then David was saved while waiting for forgiveness through the next
Animal sacrifice.

In reality we cannot even hold him to New Covenant standards as he was under the Old Covenant.

However, we know because of the writings in Psalms by David that David realized that he needed to repent. Maybe this additional understanding by David without needing the command to repent is why God called him a man after God’s heart.

That makes the most sense to me Biblically

 

[Oldmantook]

I think you need to keep in mind the context of Hebrews 6.

These are Hebrews who followed the Old Covenant and were trying to figure out how Christ and His life, death and crucifiction changes things when they were under the Old Covenant.

In the Old Covenant they handled repentance and sin very different. There was an lamb or animal sent into the desert.

I think the important piece in this verse is that Christ cannot be recrucified. I think they are telling the Hebrews Christ is not a sacrifice that was done every year to atone for sins, but that Christ’s crucifiction only happened once.

And that is why it is talking about being impossible to be done over and over every year or whatever.

They had to explain that the animal sacrifices were no longer needed and Christ didn’t need to die every year as the Lamb of God.

Problem is these were Hebrews who became believers as they were ENLIGHTENED, TASTED OF HEAVENLY GIFT, and were PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. These are descriptors only of genuine believers. In v.6 these believers are not crucifying/shaming Christ which are of course sins. They have not repented but instead continue in sin - therefore it is impossible to renew them since their very actions demonstrate that they are not interested in repenting.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In Hebrews 6:9 the writer expresses that he is convinced of better things of them, things that accompany salvation. These people had been Christians for years, probably decades. He seems frustrated that it's nessacary to go over basic doctrine again, they had anple time to mature in the faith. The theme is Christ is greater then the angels, Moses , the High Priest and the all important sanctuary. They would look to the Temple in the old covenant because God dwelled there. Now God dwells in the hearts of believers and the church is being built up as the body of Christ wherein the Holy Spirit dwells. 1 Corinthians 12 deals with this at length for Gentiles, Hebrews is expressing the same thing from a more Jewish perspective. It reminds me a lot of Galations with the urgency of not returning to the Old Testament shadows of the substance found only in Christ.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Hebrews 6:4-6 is not the topic discussion of this thread.

Please see this thread new here for that:

What do you think Hebrews 6:4-6 says?

Thank you;
And may God bless you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No Jason, it's not, it's an if then proposition specifically related to losing salvation due to adultry or murder. If for whatever reason you were to lose salvation you cannot be restored to repentance. Just because you have no answer for this doesn't mean it's off topic. I take it the commenrary you've looked at has yeilded little if anything to support the premise your try to argue. A similar verse describes repentance and being crucified with Christ vicariously Romans 6:9-10. He cannot die again, the death of Christ was a once and for alll time event in redemptive history. Hebrews 6:4-6 tells us the apostasy that results from falling away from the faith is a permanent condition.

Hebrews 6:4-6 is off topic because is talking about the FOUNDATION of repentance. Please see Hebrews 6:1. I started a new thread if you want to continue to discuss Hebrews 6:4-6. You need to tie in your conversation with David and his situation instead of just talking about Hebrews 6:4-6. Oh, and I never said I have no answer to what you are claiming. I have already stated what I believe with Scripture that refutes your belief already.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Problem is these were Hebrews who became believers as they were ENLIGHTENED, TASTED OF HEAVENLY GIFT, and were PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. These are descriptors only of genuine believers. In v.6 these believers are not crucifying/shaming Christ which are of course sins. They have not repented but instead continue in sin - therefore it is impossible to renew them since their very actions demonstrate that they are not interested in repenting.

You sure added a lot of your extra thoughts to that verse that the Bible doesn’t specify.

The verse is about how they believed sin was atoned for, not the number of sins or habitual sinning.

Don’t know where you got all that.

Even the Gentiles were under siege by the judaizers trying to bring them back into the Law after Christ.

This was a huge problem back then. There were many more Jewish believers than believers of Christ.

But the point is to clarify and teach them.

Just as the New Testament teaches us. All the Books of the Bible were letters or spoken back then. To bring people to truth.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Unrelated passage to the topic of discussion of this thread. Please start another thread if you want to continue to talk about Hebrews 6:4-6. We are talking about King David on whether or not he was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder. We need passages or verses that are more directly in line with his situation. Hebrews 6:4-6 is unrelated because it is talking about apostasy and not backsliding.

Can a Christian commit sin still after being saved? Yes indeed, for we still have that old sin nature that wants to rear up its ugly head, and if we submit to obeying that instead of God, we can still do just about anything !

 

[YeshuaFan]

Which allows for the plausible question of whether or not such a person truly trusted in Grace in the first place.

When the Holy Spirit indwells a saved person, He will seal them until the Day of redemption, until the time when we are reunited in the physical resurrected body with our souls!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Really though since David was under the Old Covenant and sin was handled through the Aaronic or Levitical priesthood then David was saved while waiting for forgiveness through the next
Animal sacrifice.

In reality we cannot even hold him to New Covenant standards as he was under the Old Covenant.

However, we know because of the writings in Psalms by David that David realized that he needed to repent. Maybe this additional understanding by David without needing the command to repent is why God called him a man after God’s heart.

That makes the most sense to me Biblically

Whatever view one holds to about salvation being the same or different in the OT, the question we need to ask ourselves is: Did David think he could have forgiveness of sin and or that he could have salvation?

The answer is.... "yes."

Forgiveness of sin:

Have mercy upon me, (Psalms 51:1).
blot out my transgressions (Psalms 51:1).
Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, (Psalms 51:2).
cleanse me from my sin. (Psalms 51:2).
Hide thy face from my sins, (Psalms 51:9).
blot out all mine iniquities (Psalms 51:9).​

Salvation:

"Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation" (Psalms 51:12).
"Deliver me from blood-guiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation" (Psalms 51:14).
​

So we see that David believed that he could seek forgiveness with God and have a restoration of his salvation.