Was King David Saved While He Committed His Sins of Adultery and Murder?

[mark kennedy]

I believe David was forgiven when he repented (confessed), too.
But he was not saved WHILE he was committing those sins, though.
He did not confess yet of those sins.

So David wasn't saved until he repented of his conspiracy covering up Joab's murders? Your not going to get that from the New Testament witness Romans 5:20 tell us where sin increased grace does much more increase. 1 Corinthians 5:5 tells them to hand over the immoral brother to Satan to destroy the body in order to save the soul, not that he lost his salvation.

 

[ToBeLoved]

So David wasn't saved until he repented of his conspiracy covering up Joabs murders?

Old Covenant salvation wasn't based upon personal repentance to God. It was based upon the Levitical priesthood and obedience to sacrifice, including animal blood sacrifice.

So @Jason0047 can not hold King David under the Old Covenant to New Covenant standards. God hadn't given the New Covenant yet. He foretold it, but had not implemented it until Christ.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Whatever view one holds to about salvation being the same or different in the OT, the question we need to ask ourselves is: Did David think he could have forgiveness of sin and or that he could have salvation?

The answer is.... "yes."

Forgiveness of sin:

Have mercy upon me, (Psalms 51:1).
blot out my transgressions (Psalms 51:1).
Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, (Psalms 51:2).
cleanse me from my sin. (Psalms 51:2).
Hide thy face from my sins, (Psalms 51:9).
blot out all mine iniquities (Psalms 51:9).​

Salvation:

"Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation" (Psalms 51:12).
"Deliver me from blood-guiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation" (Psalms 51:14).
​

So we see that David believed that he could seek forgiveness with God and have a restoration of his salvation.

However advanced David's understanding of God was and it was advanced. The New Covenant was not valid yet and King David was under the Old Covenant.

I believe personally and because of the Psalms you listed above, that David did repent.

However, He was and was never under the New Covenant, so it doesn't matter. A Covenant is an agreement between God and man at a specific time and with a specific agreement. For David, that was the Old Covenant.

 

[mark kennedy]

Hebrews 6:4-6 is not the topic discussion of this thread.

Please see this thread new here for that:

What do you think Hebrews 6:4-6 says?

Thank you;
And may God bless you.

It most certainly is part of the topic, it speaks directly to losing salvation.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Whatever view one holds to about salvation being the same or different in the OT, the question we need to ask ourselves is: Did David think he could have forgiveness of sin and or that he could have salvation?

The answer is.... "yes."

Forgiveness of sin:

Have mercy upon me, (Psalms 51:1).
blot out my transgressions (Psalms 51:1).
Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, (Psalms 51:2).
cleanse me from my sin. (Psalms 51:2).
Hide thy face from my sins, (Psalms 51:9).
blot out all mine iniquities (Psalms 51:9).​

Salvation:

"Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation" (Psalms 51:12).
"Deliver me from blood-guiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation" (Psalms 51:14).
​

So we see that David believed that he could seek forgiveness with God and have a restoration of his salvation.

David knew that he had the Holy Spirit, as he was afraid the Lord would have Him removed from him!

 

[mark kennedy]

Hebrews 6:4-6 is off topic because is talking about the FOUNDATION of repentance. Please see Hebrews 6:1. I started a new thread if you want to continue to discuss Hebrews 6:4-6. You need to tie in your conversation with David and his situation instead of just talking about Hebrews 6:4-6. Oh, and I never said I have no answer to what you are claiming. I have already stated what I believe with Scripture that refutes your belief already.

I don't think so Jason, your not going to that. Now you may thinks burying it in voluminous quote in another thread will change the obvious meaning but there's a reason you won't admit the obvious. If you can lose salvation you can only do it once.

 

[redleghunter]

Let me first ask you a simple question. Do not the scriptures EXPLICITLY warn you that should you take the mark of the beast, you will suffer eternal torment? Would you still have Jesus' 'imputed' righteousness then?

What makes you think sealed believers would accept the mark of the beast?

If you evade answering this question, possess a crystal ball and are 100% certain that you would never take the mark and thus deny Christ, just remember that Peter who walked and talked with Jesus daily was absolutely certain that he would not deny Christ; yet we all know what happened to Peter. And why would you not take it? After all, don't you believe that you can never lose you justification??

Don't need a crystal ball as the remaining chapters of Revelation show those who take the mark are not God's elect. In fact, we have this:

Revelation 7: ESV

1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

So it seems God has that one under control too.

That is why we are admonished to continue in the faith - if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister. Col 1:23
The word "if" indicates only the possibility - not the certainty - that one will in fact continue in the faith. "If indicates a condition - stable, steadfast, not shifting - that must be met by us in order to continue in the faith.

The 'if' is related to the Gospel here right? Meaning the Gospel of Grace. And what is this hope he speaks of? Yes eternal life. What did Jesus say about His sheep and eternal life?

Therefore, Paul is saying "if" someone does not stay steadfast in the Gospel which is hour hope. If one does not believe the Gospel and the sure hope of eternal life, what do we call such people....Right unbelievers. It means they don't believe in the Gospel to save.

If your point is Paul is addressing 100% born again believers in these churches, I think that is a huge assumption. Jesus told us there would be tares among the wheat. It's why Paul uses "if" and in one case "test yourself to see if you are truly in the faith" and also "But if Christ is in you" type statements. He makes contrasts between what is genuine salvific faith and what fruits or lack thereof are not.

The Apostle Paul warned the brethren in Rome that if they live according to the flesh (habitual sin), they will die (Rom 8:13). The Apostle James wrote: "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. " Js 5:19-20
The Apostle John wrote "Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil.... 1 Jn 3:7-8

Once again, there is no indication one who is born again, regenerated in the Spirit falls into these categories. What did Jesus say about His sheep again?

The numerous warnings in Scripture against apostatizing from the faith are written to believers; not unbelievers.

It can be both. For we know from Christ many are called but few are chosen and also the parable of the wheat and tares not to mention the parable of the sower/soils. Add to that, what did Jesus say to those who claimed Him but were not His? He said "I never knew you."

It is impossible for an unbeliever to depart from the faith since he/she was never a part of the faith to begin with.

In the same chapter where Jesus says "I never knew you" He also discussed those who were influenced by false teachers and were deluded.

Remember to take these "proof texts" in isolation of other teachings is just pitting Scriptures against each other and thus you are creating a contradiction where there is none.

Jesus said His sheep will never perish and they would be given eternal life. From that standpoint we must regard all warnings.

The notion that true believers can never die spiritually and lose their justification/salvation is a lie.

Actually Jesus said His sheep will never perish or be plucked from the Father or Him.

It is just another lie from Satan - the same lie that the serpent spoke to Eve in Gen 3:4 "You will not certainly die," the serpent said to the woman."
Don't believe the lie.

Jesus did not lie.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't think so Jason, your bot going to that. Niw you may thinks burying it in voluminous quote in another thread will change the obvious meaning but theres a reason you won't admit the obvious. If you can lose salvation you can only do it once.

If you talk about Hebrews 6:4-6, you HAVE to bring King David into the conversation to prove your point, otherwise you are going off topic and interrupting the thread. Continually mentioning Hebrews 6:4-6 without mentioning David is to talk about Hebrews 6:4-6 and not King David in regards to this topic.

 

[redleghunter]

Unrelated passage to the topic of discussion of this thread. Please start another thread if you want to continue to talk about Hebrews 6:4-6. We are talking about King David on whether or not he was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder.

Hebrews 6 actually does address the loss or the inability to repent and be in union with Christ. It's probably the only passage in the Bible which comes close to your OP definition of "losing one's salvation." So I think you have to deal with it because your point is that when David sinned he lost 'his' salvation. This is the only passage that deals with an actual loss of something close to the OP topic.

We need passages or verses that are more directly in line with his situation. Hebrews 6:4-6 is unrelated because it is talking about apostasy and not backsliding.

What's the difference between backsliding and apostasy?

 

[redleghunter]

I suggest you read Heb 6:6. Does it not plainly state that it was impossible to renew them to repentance SINCE they were shaming/crucifying Christ? The word "since" points to the exact reason it was impossible to renew them. Since the verse interprets itself, we need not look any further.

The shaming has to do with crucifying again the Lord. It has nothing to do with sin in that passage. It means they went elsewhere than the Atonement in Christ's Blood for their justification and later if they wanted to come to Christ could not.

This all has to do with the Gospel of Grace and the justification in the Blood of Christ.

 

[redleghunter]

No Jason, it's not, it's an if then proposition specifically related to losing salvation due to adultry or murder. If for whatever reason you were to lose salvation you cannot be restored to repentance. Just because you have no answer for this doesn't mean it's off topic. I take it the commenrary you've looked at has yeilded little if anything to support the premise your try to argue. A similar verse describes repentance and being crucified with Christ vicariously Romans 6:9-10. He cannot die again, the death of Christ was a once and for alll time event in redemptive history. Hebrews 6:4-6 tells us the apostasy that results from falling away from the faith is a permanent condition.

I agree you are on topic with Hebrews 6. Yet I would also offer that if David were to lose his standing with God as a man after His own heart and His chosen king and blood line for Messiah, he would have to deny the promises of God to him. He never did and as such held to the promises of God which means even in a weakened sinful state maintained his faith in God. We see this when Nathan confronts David and David immediately says "I have sinned against God."

The entire history of this sin of David and how God in His Grace sends a prophet to confront David and then David humbling himself and repenting is a beautiful story of God's Grace and for His Glory alone.

It truly shows how much God loves His sheep and will not let them perish but gives them eternal life.​

 

[redleghunter]

There are numerous scriptures that warn against apostatizing. They are only addressed to genuine believers. You would have to explain to me how an unsaved person who is not part of the faith can depart/apostatize from something he was never a part of. That is an impossibility.

Matthew 7 says different. Jesus clearly shows there are people within our churches who will do the works of prophets and church members but He "never knew" them. Notice the context is false teachers and those that follow them.

Matthew 7: ESV

15“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Jesus does not say "I will forget you since I already knew you." He did not say "I knew you but not anymore." No He said "I never knew you."


Jesus said in John 10: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." Now please address your own created contradiction as Jesus said he never knew them, yet His sheep He knows?

 

[redleghunter]

I believe David was forgiven when he repented (confessed), too.
But he was not saved WHILE he was committing those sins, though.
He did not confess yet of those sins.

Then you should explain why he repented if he was not saved at the time.

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<RLH>Matthew 7 says different. Jesus clearly shows there are people within our churches who will do the works of prophets and church members but He "never knew" them. Notice the context is false teachers and those that follow them.
Matthew 7: ESV
15“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Jesus does not say "I will forget you since I already knew you." He did not say "I knew you but not anymore." No He said "I never knew you."
Jesus said in John 10: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." Now please address your own created contradiction as Jesus said he never knew them, yet His sheep He knows?<end>

end

I can think of a few in recent times who might fall into the "never knew" category. Jimmy down in Louisiana, Jim in North Carolina. Another Jim in Guyana. etc. I might be a little off but I think when Jesus said "I never knew you" that "never" is like Jesus outside of time it extends from the past, through the present and into the future.

 

[YeshuaFan]

I suggest you read Heb 6:6. Does it not plainly state that it was impossible to renew them to repentance SINCE they were shaming/crucifying Christ? The word "since" points to the exact reason it was impossible to renew them. Since the verse interprets itself, we need not look any further.

The author is sopeaking towards those who were in their midst, and were with them, but were not of them, as John stated also, that they would depart from us and showed mere professors only!

 

[redleghunter]

We are talking about King David and whether or not he was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder. This thread is not about Hebrews 6:4-6. I created a thread discussion for that here:

What do you think Hebrews 6:4-6 says?

However your point is David was not saved when he sinned. If this be the case then he had no access to God to seek forgiveness. It also puts us in the mess of having our actions determine who God saves and keeps.

I get your point that the state of the sealed in Christ is Trust and Obey. What I don’t get is this day on day off saved not saved. As if being adopted children was a daily or weekly review.

The actual adoptions in Paul’s day in Roman society involved a very strict legal contract where denouncing the adopted was frankly unheard of. Why? Because those adopted back then were hand picked and usually so to inherit the estate. Adoptions were not like today as seen as acts of charity. Some adoptees even put the adopted son over the natural born siblings.

 

[redleghunter]

Problem is these were Hebrews who became believers as they were ENLIGHTENED, TASTED OF HEAVENLY GIFT, and were PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. These are descriptors only of genuine believers. In v.6 these believers are not crucifying/shaming Christ which are of course sins. They have not repented but instead continue in sin - therefore it is impossible to renew them since their very actions demonstrate that they are not interested in repenting.

Yet those verses use none of the language as in “beloved” to give us a determination of their status. In fact the language of taste tells us they did not fully drink this truth. And with regards to the remainder of the passage and chapter we see stark differences between those called beloved and the difference of when water is poured on one type of soil it produces and even though the same water is poured out on another only thorns.

 

[redleghunter]

Whatever view one holds to about salvation being the same or different in the OT, the question we need to ask ourselves is: Did David think he could have forgiveness of sin and or that he could have salvation?

The answer is.... "yes."

Forgiveness of sin:

Have mercy upon me, (Psalms 51:1).
blot out my transgressions (Psalms 51:1).
Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, (Psalms 51:2).
cleanse me from my sin. (Psalms 51:2).
Hide thy face from my sins, (Psalms 51:9).
blot out all mine iniquities (Psalms 51:9).​

Salvation:

"Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation" (Psalms 51:12).
"Deliver me from blood-guiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation" (Psalms 51:14).
​

So we see that David believed that he could seek forgiveness with God and have a restoration of his salvation.

He said restore unto me the joy of thy salvation. He did not say please give it back to me.

Because that is the poison of sin. It robs us of joy.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

He said restore unto me the joy of thy salvation. He did not say please give it back to me.

Because that is the poison of sin. It robs us of joy.

Joy and salvation go together like wetness and rain. You cannot have one without the other.

 

[redleghunter]

Joy and salvation go together like wetness and rain. You cannot have one without the other.

You can as David pointed out in the text.

That is why I said sin is the poison which can crush the joy God wants us to have abundantly.