Was God behind the Reformation?

[cristoiglesia]

There were a lot of people who took advantage of what Luther started. There were the Humanists represented by Zwingli,Calvin, Colet, Beza, More and Erasmus. Then there were the kings and princes and of course Satan himself adding to the confusion of it all. Thank goodness that we can look upon the fruit of the Reformation today and see that it was a failed experiment.

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

 

[ScottBot]

there were a lot of people who toolk advantage of what Luther started. There were the Humanists represented by Zwingli,Calvin, Colet, Beza, More and Erasmus. Then there were the kings and princes and of course Satan himself adding to the confusion of it all. thank goodness that we can look upon the fruit of the Reformation today and see that it was a failed experiment.

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

There are those who don't consider it a failed experiiment.

 

[cristoiglesia]

The results are as important if not more important than the source. Luther's problem was originally corruption within the Catholic heirarchy. No knowledgable, honest Catholic will deny it. What resulted was much more than a cleaning up of behavior, it was a complete redefinition of Christianity to something that the Apostles themselves wouldn't recognize.

 

[cristoiglesia]

There are those who don't consider it a failed experiiment.

I know, but how can one deny the ever ending schisms and divisions in the church. Along with this is a never ending increase in false teaching and doctrines, All that are the creation of men. The Scriptures say that we will know them by their fruits and their fruits do not speak highly of the entire movement that ,IMO, becomes less and less Christ centered and more carnal in nature represented by the prosperity doctrine and others.


“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matt 7:15-23

 

[GraceInHim]

 

[I <3 Abraham]

I know, but how can one deny the ever ending schisms and divisions in the church. Along with this is a never ending increase in false teaching and doctrines, All that are the creation of men. The Scriptures say that we will know them by their fruits and their fruits do not speak highly of the entire movement that ,IMO, becomes less and less Christ centered and more carnal in nature represented by the prosperity doctrine and others.


“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matt 7:15-23

There's another rather long standing schism that I seem to recall, do you believe that Orthodoxy has borne ill fruit and shown itself to be a failed experiment? Isn't it the case that the fruits of a church are made up of the combined efforts of every single member of that church? And isn't it also the case that a pious man, living in a corrupt church, during a corrupt period of time would still be coverd by the blood of Christ? Yes, of course it is. One must trust Jesus Christ for slavation, trusting in his sacrifice and love before looking to one's affiliations for assurance.

Jesus was talking to individuals in the passage you supplied, individuals.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Man will view Church's orgnization (i.e. Denomination) as superiour than others as the ONE and TRUE visibly while God views His CHURCH as invisible and no comparison. Isaiah 40:18 To whom, then, will you compare God? What image will you compare him to? 2 Corinthians 10:12 We do not dare to classify or compare ourselves with some who commend themselves. When they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are not wise.

In 1 Corinthians 2:6, “but not the kind of wisdom that belongs to this world....” made me think. Wisdom by definition means quality of being wise; power of judging rightly and following the soundest course of action, based on knowledge, experience and understanding.

Discern between right and wrong Hebrews 5:14 (New Living Translation) "Solid food is for those who are mature, who have trained themselves to recognize the difference between right and wrong and then do what is right." God always unites and the devil always divides. This have been going on since the New Testament days (Read First Corinthians 9:11-17).

Spiritually, we are to: "Teach me your way, O LORD, and I will walk in your truth; give me an undivided heart, that I may fear your name." — Psalm 86:11.

Eternally, we are "positional members" in the universal church of Jesus Christ, based solely on His merit and grace. If we are a Christ-follower, then we are already a member. This is eternal and unchanging (I Corinthians 12:12-13; Ephesians 2:13-22; 4:3-6; Colossians 1:13-22). Everyone who is saved is a member of God's Kingdom. Christianity today is so entangled with "reasonings".

 

[cristoiglesia]

There's another rather long standing schism that I seem to recall, do you believe that Orthodoxy has borne ill fruit and shown itself to be a failed experiment? Isn't it the case that the fruits of a church are made up of the combined efforts of every single member of that church? And isn't it also the case that a pious man, living in a corrupt church, during a corrupt period of time would still be coverd by the blood of Christ? Yes, of course it is. One must trust Jesus Christ for slavation, trusting in his sacrifice and love before looking to one's affiliations for assurance.

Jesus was talking to individuals in the passage you supplied, individuals.

And so was I, in particular the founders of specific Protestant theology , doctrines and traditions that have departed from the orthodox teaching of the Church.

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Ditto. Its wasn't what the initial reformers believed and taught that bothers me as much as what they started.

Then maybe you need to go back and change what you posted - or document that your accusations are correct...


And, are you now suggesting that Christians should be evaluated according to their teachings rather than their association with a given institution? Are you suggesting that Luther just might have been a Christian and thus a part of the one holy catholic church, the Body of Christ? I'm sure you're not...


I could, of course, point out the the LDS claims exactly the same things for itself as the RCC does, and uses exactly the same epistemological principle of norming for that self-claim as does the RCC. Could one say, "it's not what the RCC believes and teaches that bothers me so much as what they started," or perhaps better, "It's not what the RCC believes and teaches that bothers me so much as the self-claim that their denominational institution IS the Church of Christ, their institutional elitism and pride, their pushing aside of other Christians, this focus on denominations rather than faith and what it all started." Unam Sanctum existed long before Luther was born...


MY $0.01...


Pax.


- Josiah



.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matt 7:15-23

I wonder what this stern warning means in a denomination that insists it is inerrant because it says it is, a denomination that insist no accountability is needed and thus is not allowed?

What does this warning mean to an insititution that teaches it cannot apply to them?


Just wondering...


Pax.


- Josiah

 

[jad123]

Thanks for proving my point. Since the Reformation, no-one has any authority to define what the bible means, how to interpret it, how to apply it. You have one group of Baptists calling another group of Baptists apostate, if you don't like what one pastor teaches, you just walk down the street and find one that does. Its is religious consumerism. I think the original intent of the Reformers was indeed noble, but I think that the intent was corrupted by power and money hungry men who knew how to use people's inclinations towards religious submission to increase their lots in life.

Sounds like a description of the largest and weathiest government world. Read into that as you will. hehehe

 

[I <3 Abraham]

And so was I, in particular the founders of specific Protestant theology , doctrines and traditions that have departed from the orthodox teaching of the Church.

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

Those people are dead, Jesus' words to us are alive and well. We should follow the example of Paul with the gentiles, if the holy spirit is evident upon them, then they are Christians. Paul's boldly unorthodox and remarkably ecumenical gesture transformed Christianity from a subset of judaism into the world-wide community of faith that it is today. We should follow his example in this and keep our eyes always looking for the holy in our fellow man, rather then keeping our ears constantly searching for unorthodoxy.

 

[jwill03189]

Hmm,

I apologize for butting in, but it seems to me like we are all missing one veru important point. Luther NEVER wanted the Catholic Church divided. To him, that was the one of the worst thoughts ever concived. BUT, he was extremly convicted that the Catholic church needed REFORMATION within the ranks. There were horrible atrocities within the Roman Catholic Church during this time, such as the selling of indulgences to name the big one. He wanted the church reformed, he never had a clue that it would splinter off into the Protestant Reformation. Concerning why I think that the Protestant Reformation was nudged by God, Luther had an interesting experiance that pushed him towards becoming a monk. He was nearly struck by lightning. I think that this was a little nudge from God to go into this. Before, he was planning on becoming a doctor and had no desire for monkhood. It is arguable that the devil might of staged this, but even if he did it was because he was given authority from God in the first place. Think back on Job and how Satan was given authority over Job.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Hmm,

I apologize for butting in, but it seems to me like we are all missing one veru important point. Luther NEVER wanted the Catholic Church divided. To him, that was the one of the worst thoughts ever concived. BUT, he was extremly convicted that the Catholic church needed REFORMATION within the ranks. There were horrible atrocities within the Roman Catholic Church during this time, such as the selling of indulgences to name the big one. He wanted the church reformed, he never had a clue that it would splinter off into the Protestant Reformation. Concerning why I think that the Protestant Reformation was nudged by God, Luther had an interesting experiance that pushed him towards becoming a monk. He was nearly struck by lightning. I think that this was a little nudge from God to go into this. Before, he was planning on becoming a doctor and had no desire for monkhood. It is arguable that the devil might of staged this, but even if he did it was because he was given authority from God in the first place. Think back on Job and how Satan was given authority over Job.

I agree.. Luther NEVER wanted the Catholic Church to divide but he wanted the Church to change (reform). Instead, Luther was dismissed by the Catholic Church which then caused the actual Reformation because Luther had no choice but Reform outside the Catholic Church.

 

[cristoiglesia]

There's another rather long standing schism that I seem to recall, do you believe that Orthodoxy has borne ill fruit and shown itself to be a failed experiment? Isn't it the case that the fruits of a church are made up of the combined efforts of every single member of that church? And isn't it also the case that a pious man, living in a corrupt church, during a corrupt period of time would still be coverd by the blood of Christ? Yes, of course it is. One must trust Jesus Christ for slavation, trusting in his sacrifice and love before looking to one's affiliations for assurance.

Jesus was talking to individuals in the passage you supplied, individuals.

Whether the Roman see separated from the east or vice versa is the topic of another discussion. The fundamental thing is that neither the East nor the West denied the orthodoxy of the Ecumenical Councils nor introduced new doctrines or practices that conflicts with the teaching of the apostles as did the Reformers introducing the elimination of valid clergy, forbiding or perverting the Eucharist. Nor did they attempt to remove Scripture that disagreed with their doctrines like the Protestants. According to the Council of Dort they even changed the Gospel to mean that Christ did not die for all men but just the elect without the element of free will.

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

 

[jad123]

Just a quick point. This discussion about the Reformation always consists of Luther and Calvin but it is important to remember that the first group to stand up to the teachings in Rome were the Waldensians in and around 1180. The group was founded by Peter Waldo. They led the way in protesting the tyranny and corruption of Rome during this time.
At the beginning of the movement the Waldensians did not depart from Roman Catholic teachings. They did not reject the authority of the pope or the entire sacramental system. But their main emphasis was on preaching. It was preaching that got them into trouble with the church, for they preached without permission. But they continued even in the face of excommunication because they were convinced that scripture was held higher than tradition. This belief led to the persecution well before the Reformation hundreds of years later.

 

[jwill03189]

Just a quick point. This discussion about the Reformation always consists of Luther and Calvin but it is important to remember that the first group to stand up to the teachings in Rome were the Waldensians in and around 1180. The group was founded by Peter Waldo. They led the way in protesting the tyranny and corruption of Rome during this time.
At the beginning of the movement the Waldensians did not depart from Roman Catholic teachings. They did not reject the authority of the pope or the entire sacramental system. But their main emphasis was on preaching. It was preaching that got them into trouble with the church, for they preached without permission. But they continued even in the face of excommunication because they were convinced that scripture was help higher than tradition. This belief led to the persecution well before the Reformation hundreds of years later.

Interesting. I never knew . The more you know...

 

[jwill03189]

Sounds like a description of the largest and weathiest government world. Read into that as you will. hehehe

lol

 

[cristoiglesia]

Hmm,

I apologize for butting in, but it seems to me like we are all missing one veru important point. Luther NEVER wanted the Catholic Church divided. To him, that was the one of the worst thoughts ever concived. BUT, he was extremly convicted that the Catholic church needed REFORMATION within the ranks. There were horrible atrocities within the Roman Catholic Church during this time, such as the selling of indulgences to name the big one. He wanted the church reformed, he never had a clue that it would splinter off into the Protestant Reformation.

That is correct except I would not even fully agree with you that he wanted reform. What he wanted was a debate on the issues of the 95 thesis. He was wrong in approaching things as he did but should have submitted to his bishop instead of how he went about this.

Concerning why I think that the Protestant Reformation was nudged by God, Luther had an interesting experience that pushed him towards becoming a monk. He was nearly struck by lightning. I think that this was a little nudge from God to go into this. Before, he was planning on becoming a doctor and had no desire for monkhood. It is arguable that the devil might of staged this, but even if he did it was because he was given authority from God in the first place. Think back on Job and how Satan was given authority over Job.

I have no doubt that Luther was called into the priesthood and many of us who have been called can relate similar experiences. I think that Satan took advantage of the situation to spread confusion and to cause increasing schism and animosity among Christians. Would not the debates here be more peaceful if we were all of one authority?

I think so. Left to ourselves we would find common ground but there are forces here that "stir the pot" to separate us and cause animosity both upfront and behind the scenes. I have seen this on other Forums, when Christians of different disciplines start getting along and the discussions become civil the administration comes in to create contention. It clearly shows that the Bible is right when it speaks of Spiritual warfare and the real enemy. We see it in these forums on the internet. Satan wants us to think that the problem is with each other and not from a source outside ourselves.

In Christ,
Fr. Joseph

 

[jinkazama]

Of Course God inspired Luther to write 95 theses, the Catholic Church was corrupting his name, that is a fact.