Was God behind the Reformation?

[Adammi]

I believe I have brought this up before as a reply in another thread, but it didn't get far. So I am starting a new thread for discussion.

My question: Was God behind the Reformation?

I may not hold the exact same positions as Luther or Calvin, but what I see in all the reformers was a common desire to love Jesus.

Today, there is a lot of Protestants who love Jesus and confess Him as Lord and Savior. (Romans 10:9-10).

I can not see Satan wanting people to confess Jesus as Lord and Savior. I can not see Satan wanting people to repent for their sins and to be Christ-like. Therefore, since Satan (evil) was not behind the Reformation, God must have been. Look at how many people have been saved through Protestant/Non-denominational chruchs!

Yes, there might be a lot of different denominations, but they are all united in their belief in Jesus Christ, one of the only beliefs that truely counts! It is through Jesus we are saved.

I'm only bringing this up because a lot of Orthodox and Catholic brothers seem to look down on the Reformation (something that God had to have backed). I'm just trying to understand this position.

God bless...

At the Protestant Reformation the Reformers did reject Christ.

In the biblical book of Acts, St. Paul (before his conversion), persecuted the Church in heinous ways. Jesus appeared to him and said, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me."

Persecuting who?

Persecuting ME.

Christ is so intimately involved with the Church, that the Church has become his very own body. When you persecute the body (the Church) you persecute the head, and when you persecute the head (Christ) you persecute the rest of the body.

The Church is the body of Christ, and is part of Christ. The Church is not complete without Christ and Christ's body is the Church.

The Church IS and AlWAYS has been and ALWAYS WILL BE the Catholic Church with a descendant of St. Peter at its head.

When the Reformers rejected the body of Christ (the Church) they also rejected the head (Christ).

"Luther, Calvin, etc., why are you persecuting me"

 

[jwill03189]

What would you do? If the church had corruption within it and you loved your church, would you sit quietly or act? If the tradition was flawed and parts of it ungodly, would you stand against or accept the dogma? Jesus certainly didn't. He saw the Pharisees for what they were (Matt 23:7). He took a stand against dogmatic rituals for something more than the life of religion. So, to say that dissension is bad, take another look at who Jesus is and what he did.

 

[cristoiglesia]

What would you do? If the church had corruption within it and you loved your church, would you sit quietly or act? If the tradition was flawed and parts of it ungodly, would you stand against or accept the dogma? Jesus certainly didn't. He saw the Pharisees for what they were (Matt 23:7). He took a stand against dogmatic rituals for something more than the life of religion. So, to say that dissension is bad, take another look at who Jesus is and what he did.

I am not trying to argue with you but reason instead, Martin Luther certainly wasn't Jesus nor was he even a bishop. He had no authority to do what he did. With all due respect i believe your argument is a non sequitur argument.

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

 

[nephilimiyr]

I believe God is in control of everything. I don't believe God looks down upon His creation to see what is going to happen next. Nothing happends without His hand being in it to either push it along or hold it back.

 

[jwill03189]

I am not trying to argue with you but reason instead, Martin Luther certainly wasn't Jesus nor was he even a bishop. He had no authority to do what he did. With all due respect i believe your argument is a non sequitur argument.

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

I apologize...I was just trying to draw a parallel between the two situations.

 

[cristoiglesia]

I believe God is in control of everything. I don't believe God looks down upon His creation to see what is going to happen next. Nothing happends without His hand being in it to either push it along or hold it back.

Do you not believe in free will at all? How about spiritual warfare?


In Christ
Fr. Joseph

 

[KEPLER]

Certainly the protestants view Luther differently than Catholics. I referenced his quotes because they back the claim I stated earlier that he felt sad over the schisms. Do you dispute the quotes?

God Bless

I edited my post so that it is clearer which parts I think dubious...

Cheers,

Kepler

 

[nephilimiyr]

At the Protestant Reformation the Reformers did reject Christ.

In the biblical book of Acts, St. Paul (before his conversion), persecuted the Church in heinous ways. Jesus appeared to him and said, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me."

Persecuting who?

Persecuting ME.

Christ is so intimately involved with the Church, that the Church has become his very own body. When you persecute the body (the Church) you persecute the head, and when you persecute the head (Christ) you persecute the rest of the body.

The Church is the body of Christ, and is part of Christ. The Church is not complete without Christ and Christ's body is the Church.

The Church IS and AlWAYS has been and ALWAYS WILL BE the Catholic Church with a descendant of St. Peter at its head.

When the Reformers rejected the body of Christ (the Church) they also rejected the head (Christ).

"Luther, Calvin, etc., why are you persecuting me"

Um....so let me get this straight....You are accusing me of rejecting Christ?

Don't chicken out now and hold your tongue. If you are accusing me of not being a Christian I want you to say that specifically right now.

 

[Asinner]

I edited my post so that it is clearer which parts I think dubious...

Cheers,

Kepler

Hmmmm . . . can't find it.

God Bless

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

At the Protestant Reformation the Reformers did reject Christ.

I think you are required to give specific authoritative evidence of this, with thesis citations.

You need to show how each of the Reformers specificly rejected Jesus Christ. Documented, with full citations.

In the biblical book of Acts, St. Paul (before his conversion), persecuted the Church in heinous ways. Jesus appeared to him and said, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me."

Persecuting who?

Persecuting ME.

Christ is so intimately involved with the Church, that the Church has become his very own body. When you persecute the body (the Church) you persecute the head, and when you persecute the head (Christ) you persecute the rest of the body.

The verse you seem to imply (but didn't cite) doesn't mention any of the Reformers. Nor does it mention any institution whatsoever, none, much less the Roman Catholic Denomination.


IMO, Paul was persecuting Christians. Not any specific denominational institution - and certainly not the Roman Catholic Denomination. If he was, I would welcome the specific reference to such.

The Church is the body of Christ, and is part of Christ. The Church is not complete without Christ and Christ's body is the Church.

The Church IS and AlWAYS has been and ALWAYS WILL BE the Catholic Church with a descendant of St. Peter at its head.

You can believe this, as an article of faith, exactly as Mormons do about their particular denomination.

I know of no support for this in the Bible, although I fully realize that the Roman Catholic Denomination claims these bold things about itself.

When the Reformers rejected the body of Christ (the Church) they also rejected the head (Christ).

"Luther, Calvin, etc., why are you persecuting me"

Only if you ASSUME that the "one holy catholic church" happens to be the Roman Catholic Denomination (an article of faith, not a position of fact), and if you ASSUME that Luther and Calvin were rejecting the "one only catholic church" - a point you didn't address, much less document with full thesis citations.

To disagree with a viewpoint is not, IMO, rejecting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. If so, I suspect that charge could be leveled at everyone here at CF since we all seem to have some disagreements.

I think your charge here is a GIGANTIC leap.

I think not all Christians buy into your several assumptions or that very, very large leap.


MY $0.01...


Pax.


- Josiah



.

 

[KEPLER]

Hmmmm . . . can't find it.

God Bless

#131

 

[nephilimiyr]

Do you not believe in free will at all? How about spiritual warfare?


In Christ
Fr. Joseph

Yes and yes

Do you believe God has a will of His own and that His will will prevail over all others?

 

[cristoiglesia]

I apologize...I was just trying to draw a parallel between the two situations.

No problem, I knew that was what you were doing and I repect your opinion . I just think that you chose a bad example.

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

 

[NPH]

Um....so let me get this straight....You are accusing me of rejecting Christ?

Don't chicken out now and hold your tongue. If you are accusing me of not being a Christian I want you to say that specifically right now.

Well, unless you were a reformer at the Protestant Reformation or your name is Luther or Calvin I don't think he meant you nepilimiyr The post was quite specific as to whom it was referring.

I could see where you might infer that the post was implying all protestants, but that was not stated at all and again it was very explicit exactly who was being referred to in the post ... so it is just an inferrence on your part right now.

Of course, UtR might confirm that he did mean all protestants lol. I very much doubt that though.

 

[Asinner]

#131

Thanks So you aren't arguing the quotes, but the commentary. I'll go back and edit my first post, since the commentary is probably unnecessary and biased.

God Bless

 

[Veritas]

I vote "no". Martin Luther was behind the Reformation. God allows us no matter how misguided, to our freewill. The caveat, of course, is that we suffer the result. I think the fruit of the Reformation is painfully obvious; thousands of divided and disagreeing sects for starters.

 

[cristoiglesia]

Yes and yes

Do you believe God has a will of His own and that His will will prevail over all others?

Yes, but I think that we as the faithful struggle with knowing what is his will.

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

 

[NPH]

I think you are required to give specific authoritative evidence of this, with thesis citations.

So sad. In spite of an attempt to clean up GT the new rules are simply being used as another tool to beat one another over the head with

 

[cristoiglesia]

OK, Who was the tie breaker?

In Christ
Fr. Joseph

 

[cristoiglesia]

So sad. In spite of an attempt to clean up GT the new rules are simply being used as another tool to beat one another over the head with

That's all we need is more ambiguous rules to add more contentiousness and stress to the members here. (said sarcastically) I have been away for a while, what new rules?

In Christ
Fr. Joseph