VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[keras]

We are not on Earth when the Trib starts. We are with Jesus “In my Father’s house.”

That this belief is wrong, is easily proved.
The Creator God made the earth for mankind to live on. Genesis 1:28-29 All within a physical universe.
God is a Spiritual Being, existing with His angels in another dimension. Where physical beings cannot live.

Therefore, unless we lose our physical bodies and are changed into spiritual beings, we cannot enter heaven.
Only after the Millennium can this happen, as the final Judgement must come first; Revelation 20:11-15 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-56,
THEN: Death will be no more and God will dwell with mankind.
Adam, Job, David and Lazarus, all 'sleep' in death as they await the Day when they and everyone who has ever lived will stand before God. Only then is anyone given immortality, becoming a spiritual being for Eternity.
Any teachings of going to heaven before the final Judgment, are wrong, contradict scripture and are simply lies from the father of lies.

 

[Logicalpaladin]

That this belief is wrong, is easily proved.
The Creator God made the earth for mankind to live on. Genesis 1:28-29 All within a physical universe.
God is a Spiritual Being, existing with His angels in another dimension. Where physical beings cannot live.

Therefore, unless we lose our physical bodies and are changed into spiritual beings, we cannot enter heaven.
Only after the Millennium can this happen, as the final Judgement must come first; Revelation 20:11-15 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-56,
THEN: Death will be no more and God will dwell with mankind.
Adam, Job, David and Lazarus, all 'sleep' in death as they await the Day when they and everyone who has ever lived will stand before God. Only then is anyone given immortality, becoming a spiritual being for Eternity.
Any teachings of going to heaven before the final Judgment, are wrong, contradict scripture and are simply lies from the father of lies.

What do you do with the great multitude in white robes who serve God in his temple and before his throne day and night?

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,
“they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
will shelter them with his presence.
16 ‘Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’[a]
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne
will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’[b]
‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’[c]”

Also, if everyone who ever lived is resurrected all at the same time, why does Revelation 20 say this?:

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a]had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reignedwith Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

 

[keras]

What do you do with the great multitude in white robes who serve God in his temple and before his throne day and night?

Revelation 7:15-17 is a Prophecy about what will happen after the GWT Judgment, It is a scene in Eternity,
Proved by how it is then that God will wipe away every tear. Revelation 21:4

Also, if everyone who ever lived is resurrected all at the same time, why does Revelation 20 say this?:

The resurrection of the GT martyrs, Rev 20:4, is back to their mortal life, as all the Bible resurrections have been, Lazarus is the prime example; he was not made immortal, as he died again and those martyrs can also die again. But Rev 20:6 goes on to say that their second death will not affect their final status, as their names are Written in the Book of Life and immortality will be theirs for Eternity.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

That this belief is wrong, is easily proved.
The Creator God made the earth for mankind to live on. Genesis 1:28-29 All within a physical universe.
God is a Spiritual Being, existing with His angels in another dimension. Where physical beings cannot live.

Therefore, unless we lose our physical bodies and are changed into spiritual beings, we cannot enter heaven.
Only after the Millennium can this happen, as the final Judgement must come first; Revelation 20:11-15 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-56,
THEN: Death will be no more and God will dwell with mankind.
Adam, Job, David and Lazarus, all 'sleep' in death as they await the Day when they and everyone who has ever lived will stand before God. Only then is anyone given immortality, becoming a spiritual being for Eternity.
Any teachings of going to heaven before the final Judgment, are wrong, contradict scripture and are simply lies from the father of lies.

A thief who was dying on a cross next to Jesus, had this exchange with Jesus:

Luke 23:42-43 (NLT): Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.” And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

That thief was instantly forgiven and taken to Heaven. He had to have a glorified body.

1 Cor 15:52 (NLT): It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed.

In 1 Th 4:16, the dead IN CHRIST are raised into glorified bodies.

In 1 Th 4:17, We are changed into glorified bodies. Together, with the formerly dead in Christ, we are taken up into clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

That is Jesus in all His glory. He’s there to fulfill John 14:3, to show us our new mansions in Heaven.

You miss the distinctions in the two groups cited in Rev 3:10. We (believers) are “you.” The unbelievers ate “those who dwell upon the earth.” Only those unbelievers will go through the “hour of trial” that shall come upon the whole world. We will NOT enter the Trib because we will be in Heaven.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

That this belief is wrong, is easily proved.
The Creator God made the earth for mankind to live on. Genesis 1:28-29 All within a physical universe.
God is a Spiritual Being, existing with His angels in another dimension. Where physical beings cannot live.

Therefore, unless we lose our physical bodies and are changed into spiritual beings, we cannot enter heaven.
Only after the Millennium can this happen, as the final Judgement must come first; Revelation 20:11-15 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-56,
THEN: Death will be no more and God will dwell with mankind.
Adam, Job, David and Lazarus, all 'sleep' in death as they await the Day when they and everyone who has ever lived will stand before God. Only then is anyone given immortality, becoming a spiritual being for Eternity.
Any teachings of going to heaven before the final Judgment, are wrong, contradict scripture and are simply lies from the father of lies.

Keras, what is untrue about this?

Jesus distinguishes between two groups in Rev 3:10. There’s “you” and then there’s “those who dwell on the earth.”

That phrase (“those who dwell on the earth”) is a very condemning phrase. It’s about unbelievers. Rev 11:10 (NIV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

 

[Logicalpaladin]

Revelation 7:15-17 is a Prophecy about what will happen after the GWT Judgment, It is a scene in Eternity,
Proved by how it is then that God will wipe away every tear. Revelation 21:4

The resurrection of the GT martyrs, Rev 20:4, is back to their mortal life, as all the Bible resurrections have been, Lazarus is the prime example; he was not made immortal, as he died again and those martyrs can also die again. But Rev 20:6 goes on to say that their second death will not affect their final status, as their names are Written in the Book of Life and immortality will be theirs for Eternity.

That all sounds like an impression. It doesn’t say anything to tell you the great multitude is after the GWT. It says this group came out of the GT. Why would it focus on just those who died during the tribulation of the scene is after the GWT? There isn’t any indication that it is and there isn’t any reason to think it is. The white robes were also given at the fifth seal. Before all the martyrs had been killed. They were obviously being given out to each one as he died.

 

[keras]

That thief was instantly forgiven and taken to Heaven. He had to have a glorified body.

He was forgiven for his sins, but it is just your wrong beliefs about an instant transformation and going to heaven.
His name will have been Written in the Book of Life and when he stands before God, after the Millennium, THEN he will become immortal.

In 1 Th 4:17, We are changed into glorified bodies.

Only in your fevered imagination!
Not what the scripture says at all.

Jesus distinguishes between two groups in Rev 3:10. There’s “you” and then there’s “those who dwell on the earth.”

I totally reject this pretentious assumption.
...you have kept My Command to stand firm..... Stand firm thru what? The fiery ordeal that comes to test the inhabitants of the whole world.
Luke 21:34-35 also says this test will come upon everyone.

Unless you can provide a scripture saying the Lord will take His people to heaven, so they will never have to face any trials or testing; then your idea of 2 peoples in Rev 3:19, is rubbish and just another failed attempt to fit in a rapture.

 

[keras]

That all sounds like an impression. It doesn’t say anything to tell you the great multitude is after the GWT. It says this group came out of the GT.

Rev 7 is immediately after the Sixth Seal event, that worldwide disaster is; great tribulation referred to, The actual GT comes some years later.
The vast multitude are all living Christians, who trusted the Lord for His protection on that Day.

White robes are given to the faithful dead and those living who proved their faith during their test of faith. 1 Peter 4:12

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

He was forgiven for his sins, but it is just your wrong beliefs about an instant transformation and going to heaven.
His name will have been Written in the Book of Life and when he stands before God, after the Millennium, THEN he will become immortal.

Only in your fevered imagination!
Not what the scripture says at all.

I totally reject this pretentious assumption.
...you have kept My Command to stand firm..... Stand firm thru what? The fiery ordeal that comes to test the inhabitants of the whole world.
Luke 21:34-35 also says this test will come upon everyone.

Unless you can provide a scripture saying the Lord will take His people to heaven, so they will never have to face any trials or testing; then your idea of 2 peoples in Rev 3:19, is rubbish and just another failed attempt to fit in a rapture.

He was forgiven for his sins, but it is just your wrong beliefs about an instant transformation and going to heaven.
His name will have been Written in the Book of Life and when he stands before God, after the Millennium, THEN he will become immortal.

Only in your fevered imagination!
Not what the scripture says at all.

I totally reject this pretentious assumption.
...you have kept My Command to stand firm..... Stand firm thru what? The fiery ordeal that comes to test the inhabitants of the whole world.
Luke 21:34-35 also says this test will come upon everyone.

Unless you can provide a scripture saying the Lord will take His people to heaven, so they will never have to face any trials or testing; then your idea of 2 peoples in Rev 3:19, is rubbish and just another failed attempt to fit in a rapture.

You said: “it is just your wrong beliefs about an instant transformation.”

What do “in a flash” and “in the twinkling of an eye” mean below?

1 Cor 15:52 (NIV): in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

We will be changed into our glorified bodies instantly. From then on we will be imperishable. We are then raptured in 1 Th 4:17.

Also, 1 Cor 15:52 applies only to 1 Th 4:16-17 because “the last trumpet” is the trumpet sound in 1 Th 4:16.

Jesus never touches Earth in the rapture. 1 Th 4:16 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven …

1 Th 4:17 proves Jesus ends His descent behind clouds and in the air: Verse 17 (NKJV): Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

From there, in the air with Jesus, the Judgement Seat of Christ will occur (2 Tim 4:8), and, per John 14:3, we are taken up to Heaven.

1 Th 4:16 raises ALL of the dead IN Christ.

In 1 Th 4:17, ALL living believers along with ALL of the raised dead in Christ, are raptured into heavenly clouds to meet Jesus in the air. That’s biblically why there will be no believers at the GWTJ. The GWTJ is only for ALL of the dead unbelievers. Living unbelievers are dealt with in Matt 25:41-46.

In Rev 3:10 (ESV), Jesus distinguished us as “you” who “have kept my word about patient endurance.” Jesus was referring to patient endurance shown in the past and up to the present. He then said, “I will keep you from the hour of trial …” He then said, “ … that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.”

We will not be on Earth during “the hour of trial.” Its sole purpose is to “try those who dwell on the earth.” We will have glorified bodies (1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Th 4:17). We are raptured to Heaven.

The pre-Trib rapture is the next prophesied event in the Bible.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You said: “it is just your wrong beliefs about an instant transformation.”

What do “in a flash” and “in the twinkling of an eye” mean below?

1 Cor 15:52 (NIV): in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

We will be changed into our glorified bodies instantly. From then on we will be imperishable. We are then raptured in 1 Th 4:17.

Also, 1 Cor 15:52 applies only to 1 Th 4:16-17 because “the last trumpet” is the trumpet sound in 1 Th 4:16.

Jesus never touches Earth in the rapture. 1 Th 4:16 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven …

1 Th 4:17 proves Jesus ends His descent behind clouds and in the air: Verse 17 (NKJV): Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

From there, in the air with Jesus, the Judgement Seat of Christ will occur (2 Tim 4:8), and, per John 14:3, we are taken up to Heaven.

1 Th 4:16 raises ALL of the dead IN Christ.

In 1 Th 4:17, ALL living believers along with ALL of the raised dead in Christ, are raptured into heavenly clouds to meet Jesus in the air. That’s biblically why there will be no believers at the GWTJ. The GWTJ is only for ALL of the dead unbelievers. Living unbelievers are dealt with in Matt 25:41-46.

In Rev 3:10 (ESV), Jesus distinguished us as “you” who “have kept my word about patient endurance.” Jesus was referring to patient endurance shown in the past and up to the present. He then said, “I will keep you from the hour of trial …” He then said, “ … that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.”

We will not be on Earth during “the hour of trial.” Its sole purpose is to “try those who dwell on the earth.” We will have glorified bodies (1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Th 4:17). We are raptured to Heaven.

The pre-Trib rapture is the next prophesied event in the Bible.

Luke 21:35 (NIV): For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth.

Luke said what Jesus said, the Trib “will come on those who live on the face of the whole earth.”

That is the same as what Jesus meant in Rev 3:10 (NIV): “… the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.”

In Rev 3:10 we are “you.” We are not “the inhabitants of the earth.”

 

[keras]

What do “in a flash” and “in the twinkling of an eye” mean below?

It means that after the Millennium, at the last trumpet, the final call for all the dead to raise and stand before God on His Great White throne, Revelation 20:11-15
THEN; those whose names are found in the Book of Life will be changed in an instant, into immortal beings.

The idea of any bodily change before that time, is false and cannot happen.
I showed proof the 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a Prophecy about that final Judgment........ then Death will be no more.

Having to use 1 Thess 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15 in an attempt to prove the rapture theory, shows the lack of any real support for a rapture removal.
Those scriptures never say what you believe, a rapture to heaven is not Prophesied to happen anywhere. We must endure until the end.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

It means that after the Millennium, at the last trumpet, the final call for all the dead to raise and stand before God on His Great White throne, Revelation 20:11-15
THEN; those whose names are found in the Book of Life will be changed in an instant, into immortal beings.

The idea of any bodily change before that time, is false and cannot happen.
I showed proof the 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a Prophecy about that final Judgment........ then Death will be no more.

Having to use 1 Thess 4:16-17 and 1 Cor 15 in an attempt to prove the rapture theory, shows the lack of any real support for a rapture removal.
Those scriptures never say what you believe, a rapture to heaven is not Prophesied to happen anywhere. We must endure until the end.

The last trumpet is in 1 Th 4:16. The last trumpet sounds ONCE. Show me your verse for the last trumpet sounding only once, at the GWTJ.

 

[keras]

The last trumpet is in 1 Th 4:16. The last trumpet sounds ONCE. Show me your verse for the last trumpet sounding only once, at the GWTJ.

Show me where trumpet blowing will be illegal during the Millennium.

The trumpet blown in 1 Corinthians 15:52 will raise all the dead for Judgment. Revelation 20:12-13 AFTER the Millennium.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Show me where trumpet blowing will be illegal during the Millennium.

The trumpet blown in 1 Corinthians 15:52 will raise all the dead for Judgment. Revelation 20:1`2-13 AFTER the Millennium.

True or false? The dead IN Christ are raised by the trumpet in 1 Th 4:16.

True or false? In 1 Th 4:17, we join those resurrected dead IN Christ and we’re both taken up into heavenly clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

True or false? 1 Th 4:17 (NKJV) ends with these words: And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

“True” of “False” answers, only, please.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Show me where trumpet blowing will be illegal during the Millennium.

The trumpet blown in 1 Corinthians 15:52 will raise all the dead for Judgment. Revelation 20:1`2-13 AFTER the Millennium.

The last words to 1 Th 4:16 (NIV): … and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

“THE trumpet call” is a one-time sounding.

 

[keras]

The dead IN Christ are raised by the trumpet in 1 Th 4:16.

False. ONLY the dead martyrs killed during the Great Trib. As Revelation 20:4-5 says very clearly:

“THE trumpet call” is a one-time sounding.

False. Your faulty opinion

In 1 Th 4:17, we join those resurrected dead IN Christ and we’re both taken up into heavenly clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

True; those Christians who have kept their faith during all that is Prophesied to happen, will rise to meet the Lord Jesus at His glorious Return.

1 Th 4:17 (NKJV) ends with these words: And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

True. They will always be with Him in the holy Land thru the Millennium and then in Eternity, in the new Jerusalem, on the new Earth.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

False. ONLY the dead martyrs killed during the Great Trib. As Revelation 20:4-5 says very clearly:

False. Your faulty opinion

True; those Christians who have kept their faith during all that is Prophesied to happen, will rise to meet the Lord Jesus at His glorious Return.

True. They will always be with Him in the holy Land thru the Millennium and then in Eternity, in the new Jerusalem, on the new Earth.

1 Th 4:16 (NIV): For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

The last seven words are effected by “the trumpet call of God.” Read the verse above.

The martyrs in Rev 20:4 are the GM.

False. ONLY the dead martyrs killed during the Great Trib. As Revelation 20:4-5 says very clearly:

False. Your faulty opinion

True; those Christians who have kept their faith during all that is Prophesied to happen, will rise to meet the Lord Jesus at His glorious Return.

True. They will always be with Him in the holy Land thru the Millennium and then in Eternity, in the new Jerusalem, on the new Earth.

You can’t deny that Th 4:16 raises ALL the dead in Christ. What you’re missing is the time frame in which that occurs. That occurs at the pre-Trib rapture. The dead in Christ in Rev 6:9-11 and Rev 20:4 are the GM. They are resurrected in the last sentence Rev 20:4 — in the GT. When you distinguish these two raisings of the dead in Christ, you will have made a fantastic breakthrough. I sincerely hope that for you.

You do not properly explain 1 Th 4:16 because you fail to recognize the validity of the pre-Trib rapture. You can’t deny verse 16 raises the dead in Christ. You miss the timeframe in which that verse is fulfilled.

The Trib occurs after the pre-Trib rapture. The resurrection of the GM occurs in the GT. This is also why the last trump sounds only once, and only at 1 Th 4:16. There’s also no trumpet sound associated with the resurrection of the GM in the last sentence of Rev 20:4.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

False. ONLY the dead martyrs killed during the Great Trib. As Revelation 20:4-5 says very clearly:

False. Your faulty opinion

True; those Christians who have kept their faith during all that is Prophesied to happen, will rise to meet the Lord Jesus at His glorious Return.

True. They will always be with Him in the holy Land thru the Millennium and then in Eternity, in the new Jerusalem, on the new Earth.

You are speaking of the 2A. That’s not what 1 Th 4:16-17 are about.

Here’s proof, that as of Rev 9, only the 144k (sealed servants of God in Rev 7:3) and “the inhabitants of the earth” (Rev 3:10) are on this planet:

Rev 9:4 )NIV): They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

 

[keras]

You can’t deny that Th 4:16 raises ALL the dead in Christ.

But I do deny that, because the word 'all', is not there. You falsely put in in, to your shame and discredit.
ALL the dead are not raised until the thousand years is over. Rev 29:5

You are speaking of the 2A. That’s not what 1 Th 4:16-17 are about.

Utter nonsense. Paul is telling us what will happen when Jesus Returns.
Not about an unbelievable rapture.

The 144k will have God's Mark, because they go out to preach the Gospel of the coming Kingdom. Those people who get taken to the place of safety, Rev 12:14, will not need to be marked. They do not go to heaven so your beliefs are wrong.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

But I do deny that, because the word 'all', is not there. You falsely put in in, to your shame and discredit.
ALL the dead are not raised until the thousand years is over. Rev 29:5

Utter nonsense. Paul is telling us what will happen when Jesus Returns.
Not about an unbelievable rapture.

The 144k will have God's Mark, because they go out to preach the Gospel of the coming Kingdom. Those people who get taken to the place of safety, Rev 12:14, will not need to be marked. They do not go to heaven so your beliefs are wrong.

Here’s 1 Th 4:16 (NIV): For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

What percentage of the dead in Christ is raised?

The pre-Trib rapture raises the dead in Christ (100%), as of the rapture. The “inhabitants of the earth” are left behind and enter the “hour of trial” (Rev 3:10).

The GM results from an awesome revival in the Trib, spurred on by the 144k. However, it is not until Rev 20:4 when the GM are resurrected (Rev 20:4) and are taken to Heaven (Rev 7:9-17). That is the next group of dead in Christ since the pre-Trib rapture. They are raised in Rev 20:4 and taken to Heaven (Rev 7:9-17), just as the dead in Christ were raised and taken to Heaven in 1 Th 4:16-17.

You are ignoring Acts 1:9-11. Jesus’ next return does not, in any way, align with the 2A. The first sight of Jesus is in 1 Th 4:17, and only after we pass through clouds to meet Jesus in the air. Jesus is always behind clouds in 1 Th 4:16-17. We then are taken to Heaven, per John 14:3.