VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Psalm 121:1 I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.

As for the dead and the living meeting in the air: that idea will never happen, as the dead await the GWT Judgment. Only the souls of the dead martyrs, killed during the Great Trib, will be restored back to life. Rev 20:4

Fallacies and guesswork are your beliefs; Jeffery.

No, sir. You are ignoring that 1 Th 1:10, Ezek 14:21 and Rev 6:4 prove the pre-Trib rapture. That’s the same rapture to Heaven in John 14:3 and Rev 3:10.

Here’s the irrefutable proof from all the verses I cited above:

God's wrath begins in the Trib no later than the 2nd seal. Here's the 2nd seal: Rev 6:4 (TLB): This time a red horse rode out. Its rider was given a long sword and the authority to banish peace and bring anarchy to the earth; war and killing broke out everywhere.

Wars are a form of God's wrath: Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

Th 1:10 (NKJV): and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

"Delivers us" in this context, means we are snatched away (raptured): "The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [l;v"n] ("draw out, snatched away")," --- Source: Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology.

What Paul was saying in 1 Th 1:10 is we will be raptured to Heaven before the Trib, because God's wrath starts on day 1, complementing 1 Th 5:1-3.

Jesus says we will be (His words in John 14:3) is to “my Farher’s house).

Rev 3:10 says Jesus will “keep us from the hour of trial.” That’s the worldwide 7-year Trib. We are pre-Trib raptured, accordingly.

A close study of Rev 3:10 will prove there are two groups cited. Where it says “you” is about we who are raptured to Heaven. The other group is described as “those who dwell on the earth.” That is a very demeaning phrase signifying unbelievers. Proof: Rev 11:10 (ESV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

 

[keras]

Seen from the earth means not on earth. Can you give me a scripture that says Gods throne is not in Heaven?

Yes; the Spiritual realm is a hard concept for humans to grasp.
My point is the several times God has made it so people on earth could see His Throne. He will do so again when His faithful Chrisian peoples gather into all of the holy land. Rev 7:9

We humans never go to heaven, after the Millennium, God and therefore heaven, come to us on the new earth, Revelation 21:1-7

 

[Logicalpaladin]

No, sir. You are ignoring that 1 Th 1:10, Ezek 14:21 and Rev 6:4 prove the pre-Trib rapture. That’s the same rapture to Heaven in John 14:3 and Rev 3:10.

Here’s the irrefutable proof from all the verses I cited above:

God's wrath begins in the Trib no later than the 2nd seal. Here's the 2nd seal: Rev 6:4 (TLB): This time a red horse rode out. Its rider was given a long sword and the authority to banish peace and bring anarchy to the earth; war and killing broke out everywhere.

Wars are a form of God's wrath: Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

Th 1:10 (NKJV): and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

"Delivers us" in this context, means we are snatched away (raptured): "The second usage of deliverance refers to the Acts of God whereby he rescues his people from danger. The key words nasal [l;v"n] ("draw out, snatched away")," --- Source: Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology.

What Paul was saying in 1 Th 1:10 is we will be raptured to Heaven before the Trib, because God's wrath starts on day 1, complementing 1 Th 5:1-3.

Jesus says we will be (His words in John 14:3) is to “my Farher’s house).

Rev 3:10 says Jesus will “keep us from the hour of trial.” That’s the worldwide 7-year Trib. We are pre-Trib raptured, accordingly.

A close study of Rev 3:10 will prove there are two groups cited. Where it says “you” is about we who are raptured to Heaven. The other group is described as “those who dwell on the earth.” That is a very demeaning phrase signifying unbelievers. Proof: Rev 11:10 (ESV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

If wars are Gods wrath then we are subject to his wrath now and always have been because we are subject to war. Your point doesn’t pass the test. Sorry.

 

[keras]

The rapture/resurrection event takes place before the Great Tribulation

Revelation 3:

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Do you think I am as easily fooled as you are?
Rev 3:10-11 says nothing about a so called 'resurrection/rapture. In fact; those verses refute such a fanciful idea. We must hold fast to our faith until He comes.

There will be no 'mass resurrection/rapture event'. That idea is a Satanic lie and contradicts scripture. We must endure until the end.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Yes; the Spiritual realm is a hard concept for humans to grasp.
My point is the several times God has made it so people on earth could see His Throne. He will do so again when His faithful Chrisian peoples gather into all of the holy land. Rev 7:9

We humans never go to heaven, after the Millennium, God and therefore heaven, come to us on the new earth, Revelation 21:1-7

Keras, read 1 Cor 15:52 (KJV): In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

“We are changed.” The dead are raised and made “incorruptible” and we are “changed” to being “incorruptible” instantly.

If wars are Gods wrath then we are subject to his wrath now and always have been because we are subject to war. Your point doesn’t pass the test. Sorry.

The wars in seal #2 are all over world simultaneously. There is no such warring on this earth. You are trying equate earthly wars with seal #2’s wars. The wars you cite are very limited in scope and effect. That will not be the case in the Trib.

Here’s Ezek 14:21 NLT):Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

If wars are Gods wrath then we are subject to his wrath now and always have been because we are subject to war. Your point doesn’t pass the test. Sorry.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Do you think I am as easily fooled as you are?
Rev 3:10-11 says nothing about a so called 'resurrection/rapture. In fact; those verses refute such a fanciful idea. We must hold fast to our faith until He comes.

There will be no 'mass resurrection/rapture event'. That idea is a Satanic lie and contradicts scripture. We must endure until the end.

A close study of Rev 3:10 will prove there are two groups cited. Where it says “you” is about we who are raptured to Heaven.

The other group is described as “those who dwell on the earth.” That is a very demeaning phrase signifying unbelievers. Proof: Rev 11:10 (ESV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

We are raptured to Heaven because Jesus says in John 14:3 He will take us up to His Father’s house.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Yes; the Spiritual realm is a hard concept for humans to grasp.
My point is the several times God has made it so people on earth could see His Throne. He will do so again when His faithful Chrisian peoples gather into all of the holy land. Rev 7:9

We humans never go to heaven, after the Millennium, God and therefore heaven, come to us on the new earth, Revelation 21:1-7

Keras, read 1 Cor 15:52 (KJV): In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

“We are changed.” The dead are raised and made “incorruptible” and we are “changed” to being “incorruptible” instantly.

We therefore have glorified bodies before we are raptured to Heaven.

 

[BibleLinguist]

There is no "pre-tribulation" rapture. None of us will get to heaven ahead of our brethren. At this point in earth's history, we await Jesus' coming. When he comes in the clouds, he will raise the sleeping saints with the trumpet sound (1 Thessalonians 4:16), and after they have risen to meet him, the saints who were yet alive will rise to meet him, being instantly transfigured in the process (1 Corinthians 15:52).

I don't like calling this "the rapture" because I know the true meaning of the word (the same root word as rape, rapacious, raptor, etc.). "Rapture" entails seizure and carrying off by force. Jesus won't force anyone against his or her will. But some, I acknowledge, refer to this as the rapture. However, this is confusing, because many think there is a pre-rapture rapture, also known as "the secret rapture."

The "secret" rapture is so secret, that it's not even in the Bible. There is no such thing. It will not happen. Those hoping otherwise are destined to be disappointed. But the biggest problem with the belief is that it influences people to relax their vigil and to drift away from God. Why? Because those who believe in the secret rapture believe they will have a second chance after the first group has been taken. So if they are not ready then, they can get ready afterward. This second-chance theory will cause many to perish for eternity.

The Bible says that "today" (now) is the accepted time. We are not to wait for tomorrow to prepare for Heaven. We must prepare today.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Keras, read 1 Cor 15:52 (KJV): In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

“We are changed.” The dead are raised and made “incorruptible” and we are “changed” to being “incorruptible” instantly. That means we will have glorified bodies.

The wars in seal #2 are all over world simultaneously. There is no such warring on this earth. You are trying equate earthly wars with seal #2’s wars. The wars you cite are very limited in scope and effect. That will not be the case in the Trib.

Here’s Ezek 14:21 NLT):Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

There is no "pre-tribulation" rapture. None of us will get to heaven ahead of our brethren. At this point in earth's history, we await Jesus' coming. When he comes in the clouds, he will raise the sleeping saints with the trumpet sound (1 Thessalonians 4:16), and after they have risen to meet him, the saints who were yet alive will rise to meet him, being instantly transfigured in the process (1 Corinthians 15:52).

I don't like calling this "the rapture" because I know the true meaning of the word (the same root word as rape, rapacious, raptor, etc.). "Rapture" entails seizure and carrying off by force. Jesus won't force anyone against his or her will. But some, I acknowledge, refer to this as the rapture. However, this is confusing, because many think there is a pre-rapture rapture, also known as "the secret rapture."

The "secret" rapture is so secret, that it's not even in the Bible. There is no such thing. It will not happen. Those hoping otherwise are destined to be disappointed. But the biggest problem with the belief is that it influences people to relax their vigil and to drift away from God. Why? Because those who believe in the secret rapture believe they will have a second chance after the first group has been taken. So if they are not ready then, they can get ready afterward. This second-chance theory will cause many to perish for eternity.

The Bible says that "today" (now) is the accepted time. We are not to wait for tomorrow to prepare for Heaven. We must prepare today.

Our brethren are raised in 1 Th 4:16.

We join then in going up to and through the clouds in verse 17. That is where we will meet Jesus, and will forever be with Him.

We are in Heaven and come back with Jesus in the 2A (2nd Advent). We are on white horses riding behind Jesus (Rev 19:14).

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

There is no "pre-tribulation" rapture. None of us will get to heaven ahead of our brethren. At this point in earth's history, we await Jesus' coming. When he comes in the clouds, he will raise the sleeping saints with the trumpet sound (1 Thessalonians 4:16), and after they have risen to meet him, the saints who were yet alive will rise to meet him, being instantly transfigured in the process (1 Corinthians 15:52).

I don't like calling this "the rapture" because I know the true meaning of the word (the same root word as rape, rapacious, raptor, etc.). "Rapture" entails seizure and carrying off by force. Jesus won't force anyone against his or her will. But some, I acknowledge, refer to this as the rapture. However, this is confusing, because many think there is a pre-rapture rapture, also known as "the secret rapture."

The "secret" rapture is so secret, that it's not even in the Bible. There is no such thing. It will not happen. Those hoping otherwise are destined to be disappointed. But the biggest problem with the belief is that it influences people to relax their vigil and to drift away from God. Why? Because those who believe in the secret rapture believe they will have a second chance after the first group has been taken. So if they are not ready then, they can get ready afterward. This second-chance theory will cause many to perish for eternity.

The Bible says that "today" (now) is the accepted time. We are not to wait for tomorrow to prepare for Heaven. We must prepare today.

You are ignoring that 1 Th 1:10, Ezek 14:21 and Rev 6:4 prove the pre-Trib rapture. That’s the same rapture to Heaven in John 14:3 and Rev 3:10.

 

[keras]

Keras, read 1 Cor 15:52 (KJV): In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

You show your inability to fit the Prophesies into their correct place.
! Corinthians is a prophecy about what happens at the Great White Throne Judgment. Proved by how it is not until then that Death will be no more. As we are told in Revelation 21:4
Only when Eternity comes are those whose names are found in the Book of Life; given immortality.

Our brethren are raised in 1 Th 4:16.

We join then in going up to and through the clouds in verse 17. That is where we will meet Jesus, and will forever be with Him.

We are in Heaven and come back with Jesus in the 2A (2nd Advent). We are on white horses riding behind Jesus (Rev 19:14).

Not going to happen. People who believe it will, are sadly mistaken, they will wonder why they got left behind when the Lord sends His fiery wrath upon the earth.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You show your inability to fit the Prophesies into their correct place.
! Corinthians is a prophecy about what happens at the Great White Throne Judgment. Proved by how it is not until then that Death will be no more. As we are told in Revelation 21:4
Only when Eternity comes are those whose names are found in the Book of Life; given immortality.

Not going to happen. People who believe it will, are sadly mistaken, they will wonder why they got left behind when the Lord sends His fiery wrath upon the earth.

1 Cor 15:52 (NIV):
in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

You show your inability to fit the Prophesies into their correct place.
! Corinthians is a prophecy about what happens at the Great White Throne Judgment. Proved by how it is not until then that Death will be no more. As we are told in Revelation 21:4
Only when Eternity comes are those whose names are found in the Book of Life; given immortality.

Not going to happen. People who believe it will, are sadly mistaken, they will wonder why they got left behind when the Lord sends His fiery wrath upon the earth.

1 Cor 15:52 (NIV); in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be
changed.

Verse 52 proves we have glorified bodies before going to meet Jesus, below.

In 1 Th 4:16, the dead in Christ will be raised. Per 1 Th 4:17, we join the raised in Christ, and we pass through clouds together to me Jesus “in the air.”

Only dead unbelievers go to the GWTJ. The dead believers are who are raised in 1 Th 4:16, with glorified bodies.

Are you saying all that’s not true?

 

[Logicalpaladin]

Keras, read 1 Cor 15:52 (KJV): In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

“We are changed.” The dead are raised and made “incorruptible” and we are “changed” to being “incorruptible” instantly.

The wars in seal #2 are all over world simultaneously. There is no such warring on this earth. You are trying equate earthly wars with seal #2’s wars. The wars you cite are very limited in scope and effect. That will not be the case in the Trib.

Here’s Ezek 14:21 NLT):Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

So you are saying that no war has been Gods wrath but a war is coming that will be? It’s interesting too to note that the second seal opens before the sixth seal and the sixth seal says that with its opening, the wrath of God is come. Is that a false statement in the sixth seal? It’s not when the day of his wrath starts? I, for one, believe the statement that Gods wrath comes at the sixth seal. I don’t find that dishonest.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

So you are saying that no war has been Gods wrath but a war is coming that will be? It’s interesting too to note that the second seal opens before the sixth seal and the sixth seal says that with its opening, the wrath of God is come. Is that a false statement in the sixth seal? It’s not when the day of his wrath starts? I, for one, believe the statement that Gods wrath comes at the sixth seal. I don’t find that dishonest.

You appear to be relying on a statement

So you are saying that no war has been Gods wrath but a war is coming that will be? It’s interesting too to note that the second seal opens before the sixth seal and the sixth seal says that with its opening, the wrath of God is come. Is that a false statement in the sixth seal? It’s not when the day of his wrath starts? I, for one, believe the statement that Gods wrath comes at the sixth seal. I don’t find that dishonest.

What I am saying is there are 21 judgments of God’s wrath that will occur in the seven years of the Trib. Wars are one of them, as proven by seal #2: Rev 6:4 (TLB): This time a red horse rode out. Its rider was given a long sword and the authority to banish peace and bring anarchy to the earth; war and killing broke out everywhere.

God’s wrath is known to have at least four forms: wars, famine, pestilence and wild animals that brutally kill humans. They also appear in seal #4: Rev 6:8 (KJV): And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

In the 4th seal alone, 25% of those who dwell on the earth, will be brutally killed by at least famine and wild beasts.

God’s wrath begins no later than the 2nd seal. It continues in the 4th seal.

Here’s the truth about Rev 6:15-16: Those folks are not believers, because they run and hide from a supposed sighting of Jesus. Those folks run into dens and among the rocks of the mountains. That is not what believers would do. If we truly saw Jesus, we wound run to Him and fall down on our faces in very loving worship to Him.

Therefore, in verse 16, only unbelievers are claiming to see Jesus. How believable are they?

 

[keras]

Are you saying all that’s not true?

It is true that 'glorified bodies' are not given to anyone before they are Judged and the Book of Life is opened. AFTER the Millennium.

Only dead unbelievers go to the GWTJ. The dead believers are who are raised in 1 Th 4:16, with glorified bodies.

Everyone who has ever lived will stand before God on His GWT. Rev 20:11
There is no mention of 'glorified bodies' in 1 Thess 4:17 You have made that up, it is impossible, same with going to live in heaven.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

It is true that 'glorified bodies' are not given to anyone before they are Judged and the Book of Life is opened. AFTER the Millennium.

Everyone who has ever lived will stand before God on His GWT. Rev 20:11
There is no mention of 'glorified bodies' in 1 Thess 4:17 You have made that up, it is impossible, same with going to live in heaven.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

1 Th 4:17 (NIV): After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

“Forever.” We couldn’t do that without glorified bodies.

After we are transformed into our glorified bodies, we go to meet Jesus — in the air — And so we will be with the Lord forever.

That is NOT the 2A; that is the pre-Trib rapture, proven also in John 14:3 (NIV):And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

 

[keras]

“Forever.” We couldn’t do that without glorified bodies.

Yes, we can and will be with Jesus in the Millennium; in mortal bodies, but as Isaiah 65:20 says; even at age 100, we will be considered to be young. Then after the Mill, if Judged worthy, we will become immortal, as 1 Cor 15:50-56 describes. NOT before then.

John 14:3 (NIV):And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

.....on earth; where Jesus will be after He Returns. Proved by Matthew 24:30-31
It is just a false dream to think Jesus will come secretly to take His people away to heaven. The Bible never says that will happen.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Yes, we can and will be with Jesus in the Millennium; in mortal bodies, but as Isaiah 65:20 says; even at age 100, we will be considered to be young. Then after the Mill, if Judged worthy, we will become immortal, as 1 Cor 15:50-56 describes. NOT before then.

.....on earth; where Jesus will be after He Returns. Proved by Matthew 24:30-31
It is just a false dream to think Jesus will come secretly to take His people away to heaven. The Bible never says that will happen.

Yes, we can and will be with Jesus in the Millennium; in mortal bodies, but as Isaiah 65:20 says; even at age 100, we will be considered to be young. Then after the Mill, if Judged worthy, we will become immortal, as 1 Cor 15:50-56 describes. NOT before then.

.....on earth; where Jesus will be after He Returns. Proved by Matthew 24:30-31
It is just a false dream to think Jesus will come secretly to take His people away to heaven. The Bible never says that will happen.

Jesus distinguishes between two groups in Rev 3:10. There’s “you” and then there’s “those who dwell on the earth.”

That phrase is a very condemning phrase. It’s about unbelievers. Rev 11:10 (NIV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

Rev 3:10 (NIV): Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

Only unbelievers are on Earth at the start of the Trib. Jesus said so by singling out those unbelievers with the very demeaning phrase: “those who dwell on the earth.”

When Jesus next returns, we will meet Him behind clouds and in the air (1 Th 4:17). Where we go from there is stated in John 14:3 (NKJV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

There’s a colon after “Myself,” and the next word “that” along with “where I am” emphasizes His preceding reference in verse 2: “In my Father’s house.”

We are not on Earth when the Trib starts. We are with Jesus “In my Father’s house.”

 

[keras]

We are not on Earth when the Trib starts. We are with Jesus “In my Father’s house.”

That this belief is wrong, is easily proved.
The Creator God made the earth for mankind to live on. Genesis 1:28-29 All within a physical universe.
God is a Spiritual Being, existing with His angels in another dimension. Where physical beings cannot live.

Therefore, unless we lose our physical bodies and are changed into spiritual beings, we cannot enter heaven.
Only after the Millennium can this happen, as the final Judgement must come first; Revelation 20:11-15 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-56,
THEN: Death will be no more and God will dwell with mankind.
Adam, Job, David and Lazarus, all 'sleep' in death as they await the Day when they and everyone who has ever lived will stand before God. Only then is anyone given immortality, becoming a spiritual being for Eternity.
Any teachings of going to heaven before the final Judgment, are wrong, contradict scripture and are simply lies from the father of lies.