USING HIGH SCHOOL GEOMETRY TO CRITIQUE IMMERSION ONLY BAPTISM

[Major1]

Baptism is entry into Church. Lifelong repentance is what keeps you there. No point in one without the other.

 

[Major1]

God is not restricted in how He can save. If someone lived their entire life without the possibility of baptism, he can be saved just as much as the thief on the cross.

Agreed and remember that the thief on the cross was NOT baptized and was NOT a member of the church.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Agreed and remember that the thief on the cross was NOT baptized and was NOT a member of the church.

However, the key factor in his salvation, which many folks seem to overlook, was not necessarily his repentance (Judas, after all, was also quite repentant) nor his baptism, but his saving faith in Jesus Christ. It is faith in Jesus Christ that saves.

 

[prodromos]

Agreed and remember that the thief on the cross was NOT baptized and was NOT a member of the church.

He was in the Church from that moment on.

 

[Major1]

He was in the Church from that moment on.

I understand what you are saying. However, when did the actual church of Christ begin? At the Crucifixion? At the resurrection?

What about at Pentecost?

Isn't that when the Holy Spirit came to dwell in the hearts of believers, fifty days after the resurrection. Just asking......not meant to be argumentitive.

 

[prodromos]

I understand what you are saying. However, when did the actual church of Christ begin? At the Crucifixion? At the resurrection?

The garden of Eden.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The garden of Eden.

If that is so, do you understand the Fall to have resulted in Adam and Eve leaving the Church?

 

[Major1]

The garden of Eden.

I understand. You are applying the meaning of Catholic being "Universal".

Now, can the Church exist without the twelve apostles?

 

[prodromos]

If that is so, do you understand the Fall to have resulted in Adam and Eve leaving the Church?

No.

 

[bbbbbbb]

No.

Thank you.

 

[prodromos]

I understand. You are applying the meaning of Catholic being "Universal".

Now, can the Church exist without the twelve apostles?

Not sure how to answer this, since the Church does have the twelve Apostles, I can't really imagine the Church without.
Revelations 21 would suggest not.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Not sure how to answer this, since the Church does have the twelve Apostles, I can't really imagine the Church without.
Revelations 21 would suggest not.

While we are on the topic of the Revelation to John, who do think the twenty-four elders are in chapter 4?

4 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3 And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne. 4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. 5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God. 6 Also in front of the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.

 

[prodromos]

While we are on the topic of the Revelation to John, who do think the twenty-four elders are in chapter 4?

4 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3 And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne. 4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. 5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God. 6 Also in front of the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.

I don't know. One of the things I'll probably learn on the last day.

 

[Major1]

Not sure how to answer this, since the Church does have the twelve Apostles, I can't really imagine the Church without.
Revelations 21 would suggest not.

That is exactly why I questioned your opinion of the church beginning in the Garden of Eden.

 

[Major1]

While we are on the topic of the Revelation to John, who do think the twenty-four elders are in chapter 4?

4 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3 And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne. 4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. 5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God. 6 Also in front of the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.

Some believe that since their were 12 Tribes of Jews and 12 Apostles, then the 24 Elders represent them.

Personally, since Elders were appointed in the early church to rule and to represent the ENTIRE church, it is my belief that the 24 Elders represent the total church from Pentecost to the Rapture. Therefore, I can say with all confidence tthat right here in the Scriptures you posted is the Raptured church in heaven.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Some believe that since their were 12 Tribes of Jews and 12 Apostles, then the 24 Elders represent them.

Personally, since Elders were appointed in the early church to rule and to represent the ENTIRE church, it is my belief that the 24 Elders represent the total church from Pentecost to the Rapture. Therefore, I can say with all confidence tthat right here in the Scriptures you posted is the Raptured church in heaven.

I agree with your view. One of the niggling questions is whether the twelve Apostles include Matthias or
Paul. What do you think?

 

[ViaCrucis]

I agree with your view. One of the niggling questions is whether the twelve Apostles include Matthias or
Paul. What do you think?

St. Matthias replaced Judas Iscariot in the Twelve. St. Paul was never one of the Twelve, neither were the other apostles such as Sts. Barnabas, Apollos, Silas, Andronicus and Junia, etc. There were more than twelve apostles.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[bbbbbbb]

St. Matthias replaced Judas Iscariot in the Twelve. St. Paul was never one of the Twelve, neither were the other apostles such as Sts. Barnabas, Apollos, Silas, Andronicus and Junia, etc. There were more than twelve apostles.

-CryptoLutheran

That is my understanding, as well. Do you believe that there have been other apostles (note the small a) and that there are apostles today?

 

[ViaCrucis]

That is my understanding, as well. Do you believe that there have been other apostles (note the small a) and that there are apostles today?

I believe that the apostles' ministry was left in the hands of the bishops and presbyters which they ordained to shepherd the churches. Thus pastors minister in the seat of the apostles. Thus there have not been apostles, as such, since the apostolic period.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[bbbbbbb]

I believe that the apostles' ministry was left in the hands of the bishops and presbyters which they ordained to shepherd the churches. Thus pastors minister in the seat of the apostles. Thus there have not been apostles, as such, since the apostolic period.

-CryptoLutheran

I suppose my understanding of apostleship differs from yours. i take it from its meaning in Greek - someone sent out for a purpose or reason. Thus, we read in Hebrews 3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession One of the multitude of positions Christ has is that of Apostle, having been sent from the Father to this earth for the purpose of redeeming His people.

He, as we know, appointed twelve Apostles, of which one, Judas proved to be a son of perdition and was replaced by Matthias.

Paul was one sent by God to proclaim the gospel to the Gentiles. He was not the only such apostle, as you have rightly noted in your previous post. Paul cannot be rightly said to have been a pastor in any of the many churches he planted. His ministry, as it were, was to go and sow. He then appointed elders and deacons for the churches, as he did at Ephesus and he trained Timothy and Titus to do the work of an apostle (although not their only duty) - planting churches and appointing elders and deacons.

Thus, if I were to correlate the work of an apostle I would probably equate it to a missionary. Church history records multitudes of missionaries. Whether we call them missionaries or apostles is of no real consequence. What is of consequence is the calling which they fulfilled.