USING HIGH SCHOOL GEOMETRY TO CRITIQUE IMMERSION ONLY BAPTISM

[bbbbbbb]

I don't understand why you are simply dismissing actual Jewish sources, what Jews themselves have to say about conversion to Judaism.

-CryptoLutheran

Which branch of Judaism teaches that one must be born again in order to become Jewish?

 

[zippy2006]

From my perspective the Baptist belief that Romans 6 is a “picture” of immersion baptism FALLS FLAT USING A GEOMETRIC OR GRAPH ILLUSTRATION.

In the ancient world one symbol of death was water, because submersion in water inevitably leads to death after so long. That's what Paul is talking about in Romans 6:4. The idea is that death is present both in submersion under water and in burial, not that lowering below a horizontal plane is present in both. Baptism by immersion really does symbolize death, and Paul really did have this in mind. Fixating on a "Y-Axis" misses the point.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Which branch of Judaism teaches that one must be born again in order to become Jewish?

Every branch of Judaism, as far as I know, understands that immersion into the mikveh is a necessary part of the process of conversion, and represents a kind of new birth with a new identity as a Jew. That's why I've been quoting Jewish sources on this subject.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[bbbbbbb]

Every branch of Judaism, as far as I know, understands that immersion into the mikveh is a necessary part of the process of conversion, and represents a kind of new birth with a new identity as a Jew. That's why I've been quoting Jewish sources on this subject.

-CryptoLutheran

You missed my question. Which branch of Judaism teaches that ereryone (including boys and girls born to Jewish parents) must be born again to enter the kingdom of God? I have searched various Jewish websites to find this teaching and have yet to find it. I have had many Jewish friends and acquaintances who either were clueless about "born again" or openly mocked it as a bizarre Christian concept.

Jews do practice and teach circumcision as the means of religious affiliation for boys but never associate it with being born a second time.

 

[Thera]

Any concept of a new birth in relation to conversion in Judaism is completely foreign. It is all about becoming kosher. Thus, the foreskin, which is considered to be impure and a source of sexual disease in men, is removed and, yes, the body undergoes purification through bathing in the mikveh.

Is it the Jews that consider the foreskin a source of sexual disease, or is that just modern medicine? I know it symbolised uncleanliness in the bible, but didn't realise Jews had already linked it to diseases (I thought Jews practiced more for religious reasons than health).

Jews do practice and teach circumcision as the means of religious affiliation for boys but never associate it with being born a second time.

But they do see it as a symbol of a new beginning, no? Entering into a covenant with God, getting rid of (or putting to death) the unclean that hinders? Being born again likewise involves entering into a covenant with God, the old self dying and receiving a new heart from God. So even if the Jews won't recognise it, I think the similarities are easily seen by those who are not biased.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Is it the Jews that consider the foreskin a source of sexual disease, or is that just modern medicine? I know it symbolised uncleanliness in the bible, but didn't realise Jews had already linked it to diseases (I thought Jews practiced more for religious reasons than health).

But they do see it as a symbol of a new beginning, no? Entering into a covenant with God, getting rid of (or putting to death) the unclean that hinders? Being born again likewise involves entering into a covenant with God, the old self dying and receiving a new heart from God. So even if the Jews won't recognise it, I think the similarities are easily seen by those who are not biased.

Actually, there is little to no evidence (certainly none in scripture) that circumcision was seen in health terms by the Jews. From what I can tell the medical reasons for circumcision were developed beginning in the late nineteenth century. The primary biblical reason for circumcision seems to be as a permanent identification separating the Jews from the Gentiles.

Circumcision is not termed as a new beginning in scripture. It was pretty much an identification with the covenant God had made with Abraham, thus instead of entering a new covenant or having some sort of new beginning, they were actually identifying their baby boys with something that God had done through Abraham.

Likewise, baptism in the New Testament is termed as a sign identifying the believer with the person and work of Jesus Christ and His New Covenant. Paul tells us in Romans that baptism relates to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[Thera]

Circumcision is not termed as a new beginning in scripture. It was pretty much an identification with the covenant God had made with Abraham, thus instead of entering a new covenant or having some sort of new beginning, they were actually identifying their baby boys with something that God had done through Abraham.

But it is performed on the eighth day. In seven days, God made the Earth. I thought the symbolism was that on the eighth day, the boy enters into God's covenant with Abraham, day 8 symbolising the new beginning (or week 2, day 1), although some claim that the 8th day is the best day for circumcision due to medical reasons.

Likewise, baptism in the New Testament is termed as a sign identifying the believer with the person and work of Jesus Christ and His New Covenant. Paul tells us in Romans that baptism relates to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Doesn't circumcision likewise imply a kind of death to the circumcised flesh, resulting in life to the one circumcised through the covenant with God?

 

[bbbbbbb]

But it is performed on the eighth day. In seven days, God made the Earth. I thought the symbolism was that on the eighth day, the boy enters into God's covenant with Abraham, day 8 symbolising the new beginning (or week 2, day 1), although some claim that the 8th day is the best day for circumcision due to medical reasons.

Doesn't circumcision likewise imply a kind of death to the circumcised flesh, resulting in life to the one circumcised through the covenant with God?

Here is the Wikipedia article on circumcision - Circumcision - Wikipedia
Here is the Wikipedia article on Jewish circumcision - Brit milah - Wikipedia

They are both quite lengthy, but if you scroll down to Judaism and reasons you will see none of the claims you have mentioned. They are foreign to orthodox Jewish understanding.