USING HIGH SCHOOL GEOMETRY TO CRITIQUE IMMERSION ONLY BAPTISM

ViaCrucis

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You are arguing the obvious and you have missed the whole point of the Scriptures in Romans 1:18 that I used.

NO one is saying that there is another way to be saved outside of Jesus Christ.

When I read Romans 1:18 I see these words...."The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness..."

To be saved one first has to know how bad sin is.

"Ungodliness = That which is against God.

Romans 1:20...…...
"For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."

Creation is the clear revelation of God so that ALL men will know that there was a Creator therefore when they worship an idol or refuse God...."They are without an excuse".

That was the point. People who refuse God are guilty in the light of the Creation revelation.

It's 1500 BC, and there is young man living with his family and tribe on what is today the coast of California.

How can that man be saved?

As I see it we have two options:

1) He can't be saved. And then we simply say that there are people, countless people, for whom salvation was never possible. And God chose it to be that way, and therefore whether a person can or cannot be saved is largely dependent upon the roll of the dice or else by God's intentional purposes.

2) He can be saved. That God, abundant in mercy, who loves the world, and gave His only-begotten Son, is the God who truly and really does desire the salvation of all people. And while we may not know how, or in what way, or any such things; we can be confident that God wants people to be saved. God is not passive, but active, even pro-active in saving us.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Let's get back to the original intent of this thread....a critique of immersion only baptism.

Another way to determine whether or not there immersion only baptism is a Scriptural mandate is to distinguish between descriptive and prescriptive statements in Scripture.

Prescriptive texts in Scripture prescribe what Christians are to do. They are commands. The greatest prescriptive example in the NT is where Jesus says the two greatest commandments are to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. Other examples would include:

The Great commission; “Do this in remembrance of me.” Paul exhorts us to love one another. “Do not steal.” These statements are a straightforward call on our lives.

But a descriptive statement is just that, a description of what happened. Examples would be: On Palm Sunday, Jesus entered Jerusalem riding a donkey. Mary and Joseph fleeing to Egypt. Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

The difference is this: a passage is descriptive if it is simply describing something that happened, while a passage in prescriptive if it is specifically teaching that something should happen in the lives of Christians.

The problem comes when we interpret descriptive texts as prescriptive. Examples:

  • David committed adultery with Bathsheba. Is this text prescribing committing adultery? This is descriptive.
  • Example of David killing Goliath because he was blaspheming God. This is a descriptive text . If it were prescriptive then we might make the error of slinging rocks at blasphemers everywhere. The Bible relates the account of David’s victory as an example of faith, but the Bible never commands us to follow David’s actions on the battlefield.
  • Early church met in homes. Some interpret this to mean that Christians today should only meet in homes, and, therefore, meeting in church buildings is wrong. The Bible describes believers meeting in homes, but there is no command to do so.
  • The process by which they choose Matthias is by casting lots. Luke is not prescribing for us how to choose our leadership in the church—he is simply describing to us what happened.

In the Book of Acts, water baptism is presented both descriptively and prescriptively. However, there is only one prescriptive text concerning water baptism, but nine or ten descriptive texts.

Acts is 2:38-39 is the prescriptive. It is preached by Peter before any baptisms takes place. We know it is prescriptive from its context. For these two verses contain:

  • A Command: “Repent and be Baptized.”
  • Dual Promises: “For the forgiveness of sins” and “You shall receive the Holy Spirit.”
  • Baptismal continuance: “This promise is for you and your children.”
  • Geographical or Missional significance: “For all those to are far off and away.”

The interpretive key: Acts 2:38-39 DOES NOT prescribe a mode baptism. There is no clear-cut command in the Bible as to how the Church is to perform baptism, and anyone who asserts that there is such a command is not examining the text properly.

What would convince me to believe in immersion only baptism?
  • Demonstrate a prescriptive command to immerse only.
  • Demonstrate a prescriptive command not to sprinkle or pour.
 
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Major1

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It's 1500 BC, and there is young man living with his family and tribe on what is today the coast of California.

How can that man be saved?

As I see it we have two options:

1) He can't be saved. And then we simply say that there are people, countless people, for whom salvation was never possible. And God chose it to be that way, and therefore whether a person can or cannot be saved is largely dependent upon the roll of the dice or else by God's intentional purposes.

2) He can be saved. That God, abundant in mercy, who loves the world, and gave His only-begotten Son, is the God who truly and really does desire the salvation of all people. And while we may not know how, or in what way, or any such things; we can be confident that God wants people to be saved. God is not passive, but active, even pro-active in saving us.

-CryptoLutheran

On this thread, to you in fact I think, I listed something called General Revelation.

According to Romans 1, God has revealed some basic truths about himself to all mankind.

Romans 1:19-20.
"What may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities -- his eternal power and divine nature -- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

Nature itself declare the glory of God in His Creation.

Then there is Natural Law. God has also given mankind a conscience, a sense of justice, a general guide to right and wrong, a natural law. Many sins are obvious to everyone. Paul wrote in Romans 2:14-15...……...

"When Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them."

Now those people who are heathen, will not go to heaven BUT their position in hell will not be as severe as those who ignore God and make no effort to find the Creator. What I am saying is that there are different degrees of punishment in hell based on the information they had.

The Old Testament saints were not saved by keeping the law nor were they saved by the sacrifices they performed. The Bible tells us that the sacrifice was a yearly reminder of sin and that it foreshadowed the true sacrifice that was to come in Jesus Christ. The Old Testament saints were saved by faith just as we are looking forward to the Messiah and we look backwards at the Messiah.
How were the Old Testament saints saved? | Exchanged Life Discipleship
 
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ViaCrucis

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Now those people who are heathen, will not go to heaven BUT their position in hell will not be as severe as those who ignore God and make no effort to find the Creator. What I am saying is that there are different degrees of punishment in hell based on the information they had.

What do you have to back up this claim?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Let's get back to the original intent of this thread....a critique of immersion only baptism.

The trouble is that, in the modern age, those who insist on immersion-only credobaptism are operating from a set of a priori assumptions, and without addressing those underlying theological and exegetical problems, there probably isn't going to be anything that anyone can say to dissuade such a person from their ideas. Because in their mind their ideas are nothing other than "obvious biblical truth", in spite of the fact that their ideas are neither biblical nor true.

It's how Marjo1 and I's dissagreement has gone this far down this tangent.

My position being that salvation is the gracious work of God alone, given to us as pure gift through the means God Himself has also given.

Seeing as my salvation has nothing to do with my ability, my efforts, or even my will; but with the pure goodness of God through the Gospel I don't view salvation as a light switch that can be flipped on or off by imputing the right code.

This is a point I have been trying to explain to Major1 in not only this thread, but elsewhere as well. But appears unwilling to understand the position I am expressing.

Since I believe salvation is about what Christ has done for all, and since God is the One who saves us, that I don't accept that salvation is some kind of magical formula--press the right buttons, cross the t's, dot the i's, etc--but is instead entirely a gracious activity of God through Christ's all-perfect and entirely sufficient work; I refuse to acknowledge that being "saved" can be boiled down to having been born at the right time and place and having the right religious doctrine; and that being "damned" can be boiled down to "everyone who doesn't believe what I believe".

Salvation is a gracious work of a loving God who gives Himself freely to the world through Christ our Lord; damnation is the result of obstinate sinful human beings insisting on having their own way even if it destroys them. Neither is a roll of the dice, or happenstance, neither does God play a game of favorites: What Christ did He did for all. Full stop. The Gospel is for everyone. Full stop. That includes the very people who, by whatever circumstance of life, never even heard the Gospel in this life.

The Wedding Feast of the Lamb is not segregated.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Is there an analogy of “Immersion Only Baptism” in Romans 6?

An analogy is a comparison between two things, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification. Some individuals use the term analogy as an umbrella description for metaphors, parables or allegories. Others have distinct categories within the usage of term analogy such as illustrative analogy, ordered-pairs analogy, antithetical-pair analogy, etc. The common feature however of an analogy is a comparison of two distinct ideas, places, concepts or things.

Thus Paul compares Christ as a ‘rock’ (1 Cor. 10: 4), where he uses the account in Num. 20: 11 of the gushing of water out of a rock. In Eph 1:23, Paul compares the Church to Christ’s body. Paul states Christ is our Passover lamb referring to Ex. 12.

Credobaptists will import a comparison between immersion only baptism into Romans 6:3-4, where no such comparison exists contextually. This is the problem. Immersionists will tell us Paul’s usage of “burial” and “resurrection” is a picture of immersion only baptism. This is a false analogy.

In Romans 6:1-7.Paul lists for great actions of Christ in this passage:

  • · Crucifixion
  • · Death
  • · Burial
  • · Resurrection.

Why do Credobaptists choose “burial” and “resurrection” in establishing the theory of immersion only baptism and ignore “Crucifixion” and “Death?” Immersionists will gravitate to certain words of this passage and ignore others in formulating their theory of immersion only baptism. This is committing the Fallacy of Biased Selectivity.

I have seen some Paedobaptists commit the same hermeneutical blunder. In reaction to the perceived notion the Credobaptists have the corner on the market of the “picture” as immersion only Baptism, they use this text to establish “pouring” and “sprinkling” acceptable modes of baptism, to the exclusion of immersion.

In using the “death” action of Christ in Romans 6, some Paedobaptists will argue then the soldier lanced Christ’s side with blood and water pouring out of his side this represents pouring as a valid mode of baptism. After all they will say, immersion only baptism doesn’t depict this symbolism. Or when Jesus had a crown of thorns place on his head and blood was pouring from his wounds, this also depicts “pouring.”

With reference to the sprinkling mode of baptism, some Paedobaptists will argue that Hebrews 9:22 “without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness” is a mode of baptism. After all they will say, immersion only baptism doesn’t symbolize this either.

If we use the analogy of the ‘picture’ of baptism, we will get entangled in a rat’s nest of endless analogies and then the modes of baptism really become meaningless. If the Scriptural text specifically does NOT give us a paired comparison, we must not fabricate one.
 
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Major1

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What do you have to back up this claim?

-CryptoLutheran

The Word of God my dear friend.

Of course you do not have to agree with me and I would be shocked if you admitted such a thing.

Luke 20:47......….
Jesus warned the Pharisees that they would “be punished most severely” for their willful hypocrisy.

Matthew 11:21...…...
In denouncing the cities where most of his miracles had been performed, Jesus said, “Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes”.

Thus, in verse 22 said Jesus...….
“It will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you”.

Luke 12:47-48...….
"The servant who knows the master's will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

Hebrews 10:29 ......….
"How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace".

I believe that those Scriptures tell us that there will be differing degrees of torment in the Lake of Fire.

That position then also answers the question of...."Where do the people go who have never heard of Jesus Christ" as only those who accept Him go to heaven.

According to what I have listed for your, those people will go to hell, HOWEVER their torment will not be as severe as those who have heard the gospel and rejected Christ.
 
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Albion

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According to what I have listed for your, those people will go to hell, HOWEVER their torment will not be as severe as those who have heard the gospel and rejected Christ.
There certainly is no reason to think that everyone in hell suffers in exactly the same way...while, at the same time, Christians generally accept that there are different levels in heaven and different rewards for those who are admitted to heaven.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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Of course you do not have to agree with me and I would be shocked if you admitted such a thing.

Let's get back to the original intent of this thread....a critique of immersion only baptism.

Let's get back to the original intent of this thread....a critique of immersion only baptism.

Let's get back to the original intent of this thread....a critique of immersion only baptism.

Let's get back to the original intent of this thread....a critique of immersion only baptism.


 
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Major1

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There certainly is no reason to think that everyone in hell suffers in exactly the same way...while, at the same time, Christians generally accept that there are different levels in heaven and different rewards for those who are admitted to heaven.

I agree and that is what the Word of God has spoken to me and said.

I do however realize that many, many believers do not do the diligence of hard Bible study and when something like this comes up, the first thing they do is reject the thesis.

God bless you my brother.
 
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Major1

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Let's get back to the original intent of this thread....a critique of immersion only baptism.

Let's get back to the original intent of this thread....a critique of immersion only baptism.

Let's get back to the original intent of this thread....a critique of immersion only baptism.

Let's get back to the original intent of this thread....a critique of immersion only baptism.


Personally, how many times can it be said that water baptism has nothing to do with salvation. Why continue to debate such a notion?????

The shed blood of Jesus Christ, His death, burial and resurrection is the gospel and we are saved by faith in that event.

water baptism has nothing to do with salvation.
water baptism has nothing to do with salvation.
water baptism has nothing to do with salvation.
water baptism has nothing to do with salvation.
water baptism has nothing to do with salvation.
 
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Major1

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Thank you very much for staying on topic! God bless.

As the topic seems to have disappeared, then I would say that you are welcome.

I did not take it off target, I just followed along when I joined in.
 
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bbbbbbb

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The difficulty I have with most paedobaptists is that they do, indeed, associate water baptism with salvation, using John 3 as their prime passage to support their view.

If such as view were, indeed, true and that apart from baptism nobody will be saved, then where are these folks? I will at least credit the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints with developing this doctrine and carrying it forward into endless genealogies with endless baptisms for known dead folks, but even at that they have reached a theological dead end when faced with the unknown billions of people that have died with absolutely no record of their very existence.

If one believes that water baptism is essential for salvation then one, at the very least, would spend most of one's waking hours in hospitals baptizing babies galore and everyone else.
 
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prodromos

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If one believes that water baptism is essential for salvation then one, at the very least, would spend most of one's waking hours in hospitals baptizing babies galore and everyone else.
Baptism is entry into Church. Lifelong repentance is what keeps you there. No point in one without the other.
 
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prodromos

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That being said, do believe that lifelong repentance without baptism can result in salvation?
God is not restricted in how He can save. If someone lived their entire life without the possibility of baptism, he can be saved just as much as the thief on the cross.
 
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