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USING HIGH SCHOOL GEOMETRY TO CRITIQUE IMMERSION ONLY BAPTISM

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by Ain't Zwinglian, Apr 24, 2020.

  1. Ain't Zwinglian

    Ain't Zwinglian New Member

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    The top verses credobaptists use to justify the belief in immersion baptism it would be Romans 6:4 or Col. 2:12, Acts 8:38-39 and the “much water” passage from John 3.

    I will be commenting on Romans 6:4 Therefore we have been BURIED with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was RAISED from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

    Critical to how Credobaptists justify “immersion only baptism” is specifically the word “buried.” It is used only twice in the NT and only by Paul. Normally immersionists will use the word “picture” to describe “burial” as going under the water.” And from the analogy of the “picture” of burial, come to the conclusion of the mode of immersion baptism only.

    Listed below are some comments I have gathered from immersionists themselves about Romans 6.

    · Romans 6 is the truest embodiment of this biblical imagery of immersio
    · Immersion best symbolizes a burial and resurrection.
    · Baptism is a burial, which is what is done when one is immersed.
    · Sprinkling is not a burial; it is only sprinkling.
    · Neither is pouring a burial.
    · The last body I buried was covered over totally.
    · If we want to bury a dead body, we will not sprinkle a little dirt on the head. We will cover the body completely with dirt. Baptism is like that. It is a burial in water. Sprinkling water on the head of a person does not baptize him. He must be completely buried under the water.
    · Can you imagine the local undertaker standing a dead corpse against a tree, shoveling a small amount of dirt on its head, and declaring the body "buried"?

    From my perspective the Baptist belief that Romans 6 is a “picture” of immersion baptism FALLS FLAT USING A GEOMETRIC OR GRAPH ILLUSTRATION.

    Using X & Y axis where the X axis is either the ground level or water level, we find out that Jesus was buried in a tomb, and therefore He was buried on a positive Y axis rather than a negative Y axis. The women in the morning didn’t go to the tomb of Jesus with shovels, picks, and a wheel barrow to dig up Jesus.

    How a Baptist can actually believe that Jesus was buried in and/or under the ground (negative Y axis) is besides me. Jesus was NOT buried in the ground. Jesus was buried in a tomb. THIS IS NOT A “PICTURE” OF IMMERSION BAPTISM. THIS IS NOT A “PICTURE” OF GOING UNDER THE WATER.

    We have to make a distinction between modern western and ancient eastern burial practices. “ To bury” to refer to any process in which we place human remains in their final resting place. In the ancient middle east, it was common for prominent people to be buried in a tomb. Abraham was buried in a cave from the land he bought from Ephrom the Hittite. King David was buried in a tomb in Jerusalem (Act 2:29). The raising of Lazarus was from a tomb. Jesus was buried a tomb. The Egyptian pharaohs were buried in their pyramids….all these on a positive Y axis.

    We Americans interchange the words “buried” and “tomb” frequently. Remember Gaucho Marx famous question: Who was buried in Grant’s Tomb? Grant and his wife! President Grant’s tomb is located in New York and it is on a positive Y axis.

    There is no mode or “picture” referred to in Romans 6 concerning baptism. However, if a mode were present it would be sprinkling or pouring because sprinkling and pouring are done on a positive Y axis (a tomb where Jesus was buried), while immersion is done on a negative Y axis (the ground where Jesus wasn’t buried). The very text to which immersionists appeal to for their belief in their mode of baptism, actually works against them contextually.

    Immersion only baptism is an argument by conjecture, conclusive only to those who already presuppose “baptism always means immersion in the Bible,” It is a belief in search of a text.
     
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  2. athenken

    athenken Barbary pirates? Or are they?

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    Baptism has nothing to do with arithmetic, mathematics, or science. It is symbolic.
     
  3. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    It's an unusually interesting topic and OP (original post), Ain't Zwinglian.

    That's for sure.
     
  4. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    You leave out the base meanings of the words bapto and baptizo. To plunge, dip, immerse or soak.
     
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  5. tall73

    tall73 Sophia7's husband Supporter

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    Your hobby horse inspired username is great! Nice touch with the avatar as well, tied it all together.

    I enjoyed the thread.
     
  6. Of the Kingdom

    Of the Kingdom Well-Known Member

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    It is true that Jesus was not buried "underground". On the other hand, was He not "completely immersed" and covered up by the tomb?
     
  7. The Boxer

    The Boxer Fighting the good fight

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    Bapto and baptizo do NOT mean to plunge, dip, immerse or soak. They simply mean "to wash."
     
  8. The Boxer

    The Boxer Fighting the good fight

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    Noah and his family were "baptized" in the flood. They were not covered by the waters. The Israelites were "baptized" when they passed through the Red Sea on DRY land. They were not covered by the water.
     
  9. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    There is symbolism, but it's not symbolic. It's really dying and rising with Christ, it is what it says on the tin.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  10. athenken

    athenken Barbary pirates? Or are they?

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    It is a sign and seal of what is actually happening spiritually.

    What tin?
     
  11. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    An expression. I mean that Baptism is exactly what it says it is, and does exactly what it says it does.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  12. athenken

    athenken Barbary pirates? Or are they?

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    The bible says it is a sign and seal that our sins are washed away through Christ. It is a physical demonstration of something that is happening to our soul.
     
  13. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    The Bible says that Baptism is for the forgiveness of our sins. There is actual forgiveness which is received in the waters of Holy Baptism, because in Baptism we are joined to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and here in these waters connected and comprehended under God's word, the forgiveness won for us by Christ is given to us, freely, as grace. The work of Christ appropriated to us. Because all of us who were baptized were baptized into Christ's death, and if we have been joined to His death we share in His life. We were buried with Christ. We have been clothed with Christ. And all else Scripture says.

    Baptism is exactly what the Scriptures say it is.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  14. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    A good point.

    ...and as concerns your other point ( “much water” passage from John 3), that one is simply a matter of them misinterpreting the passage.

    So, if that's it, there's not much left to the claims, is there?
     
  15. athenken

    athenken Barbary pirates? Or are they?

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    You are still missing the point. The OP asserts that there is some sort of mathematical aspect to baptism and its relation to salvation. This is just nonsense. As for the actual administration of the sacrament, there is nothing the water does but demonstrates in a symbolic way what is happening on the inside. There are no special powers imparted to the water that is used, it is just water.
     
  16. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Neither does it have anything to do with salvation.

    All water baptism is to get one wet.
     
  17. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I agree!

    When anyone claims there is some kind of power in water baptism, they are in essence saying that water is more powerful than the shed blood of God.
     
  18. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.
     
  19. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Having spoken with you in the past on this, I am able to say to you that time has not changed anything.

    Acts 2:38...…….
    “And Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’”

    Here is the problem with believing that Scriptures teaches salvation by water baptism.

    As with any single verse or passage, it must be discerned what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand.

    In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism. So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation.
    Does Acts 2:38 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation? | GotQuestions.org
     
  20. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    That is agreed!
     
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