US homelessness up 12% to highest reported level as rents soar and coronavirus pandemic aid lapses

dogs4thewin

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Accurate enough to determine if someone has been using illegal narcotics. I’ve have to take so many of these tests that I can’t even count when I was doing construction work. Companies use these, construction sites use these, even clinics use these. Nobody sends samples to a lab anymore it’s not cost effective and it’s obsolete now that we have cheaper options that anyone with a pulse can use.

You don’t have to have a PHD to administer or analyze these tests, anyone with a pulse can hand someone a cup and say here fill it up to this line and bring it back. Then all they have to do is look at the temperature strip to make sure it’s the right temperature and look at the colors that appear on the test strips. On construction sites they have either a receptionist or a foreman or supervisor administer these tests and as for the cost of their wage they don’t have to hire someone specifically for that job anyone working at the facility can do this and even if they did hire someone to do it the $2000 per 100 cases they would save more than covers the wages of the person administering the tests because they’re going to be doing way more than 100 tests per week.

Who cares that’s their choice and their problem.

Like what?

I have no idea what you’re talking about here, without knowing the exact reasons why those people were there this is nothing more than pure speculation. I can tell you that I was in the ER last Thursday evening and I didn’t see anyone who didn’t look like they needed to be there.
It may be their choice and their problem, but it is not that simple because if they turn to crime to fund their habit and then we incarcerate them and we spend per person a MINIMUM of about 18k ( most states are higher than that per person per year and then there are the cost of supporting any children involved if the other parent for example cannot support them if they end up in the overcrowded foster system we have to pay for that. See how their problem is not just their problem? Drug courts on the other hand have been shown to be far cheaper and very effective at addressing drug issues . Again if you like I am more than willing to type out how a drug court works and provide stats that prove they are a better cheaper and more effective than incarceration at addressing drug issues.
 
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Tuur

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You can buy drug test kits for $5 on Amazon
Walmart has 12 packs which works out to about $1.83 to about $2.92 per unit. But mandatory drug testing requires personnel, and that's more expensive.
 
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essentialsaltes

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dogs4thewin

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Yes, water is rationed in California.
Honest question how does that work? I mean other than the stores telling you how many cases of bottled water you can have.
 
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dogs4thewin

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Each example makes the problem worse.
so are you suggesting that everyone should own a house? Not everyone wants to or can own a house.
 
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QvQ

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Honest question how does that work? I mean other than the stores telling you how many cases of bottled water you can have.
Don't know how it works on any particular day.
There is information about it. Do a search. That has been the main reason for building moratoriums since the 1970's. No new water hookups.
 
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comana

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Honest question how does that work? I mean other than the stores telling you how many cases of bottled water you can have.
It is how much water can be used by a household or business. The utility monitors how much is being used and either the rate increases drastically for going over the allotted amount or fines for over use.
 
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Larniavc

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so are you suggesting that everyone should own a house? Not everyone wants to or can own a house.
No. I’m suggesting you own a house to live in and that’s it. One house. Then renters who want to buy have an easier go at it.
 
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BNR32FAN

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It may be their choice and their problem, but it is not that simple because if they turn to crime to fund their habit and then we incarcerate them and we spend per person a MINIMUM of about 18k ( most states are higher than that per person per year and then there are the cost of supporting any children involved if the other parent for example cannot support them if they end up in the overcrowded foster system we have to pay for that. See how their problem is not just their problem? Drug courts on the other hand have been shown to be far cheaper and very effective at addressing drug issues . Again if you like I am more than willing to type out how a drug court works and provide stats that prove they are a better cheaper and more effective than incarceration at addressing drug issues.
What’s a drug court?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Walmart has 12 packs which works out to about $1.83 to about $2.92 per unit. But mandatory drug testing requires personnel, and that's more expensive.
The cost of an employee is much less than giving funds to drug addicts.
 
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BNR32FAN

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It may be their choice and their problem, but it is not that simple because if they turn to crime to fund their habit and then we incarcerate them and we spend per person a MINIMUM of about 18k ( most states are higher than that per person per year and then there are the cost of supporting any children involved if the other parent for example cannot support them if they end up in the overcrowded foster system we have to pay for that. See how their problem is not just their problem? Drug courts on the other hand have been shown to be far cheaper and very effective at addressing drug issues . Again if you like I am more than willing to type out how a drug court works and provide stats that prove they are a better cheaper and more effective than incarceration at addressing drug issues.
Also we’re talking about homeless people who can’t even support themselves so if children are involved those children would already be on government support.
 
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dogs4thewin

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Also we’re talking about homeless people who can’t even support themselves so if children are involved those children would already be on government support.
Still does not change the fact that if they turn to crime to support their habit and we incarcerate them for years we are still out 1,000s of dollars per person and RARITY do people who go into prison with addiction issues get better they are very likely to return to a life of crime or at least being on government support without some form of additional help

There is also the issue that if we are incarcerating non-violent drug offenders for years we have fewer beds for the violent offenders ( which has forced some states (CA actually by way of SCOUNTS to release inmates early on 8th amendment grounds How much help is that.

Do not get me wrong I do not condone drug use and frankly likely few people do, but it has become clear that incarcerating people for years for non-violent crimes has not worked very well and so we have to do something else if we want things to change as clearly locking people up for drug problems ( whether it has made them homeless or not has proven to be very costly and not very effective thus not a very good use of taxpayer money.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Still does not change the fact that if they turn to crime to support their habit and we incarcerate them for years we are still out 1,000s of dollars per person and RARITY do people who go into prison with addiction issues get better they are very likely to return to a life of crime or at least being on government support without some form of additional help

There is also the issue that if we are incarcerating non-violent drug offenders for years we have fewer beds for the violent offenders ( which has forced some states (CA actually by way of SCOUNTS to release inmates early on 8th amendment grounds How much help is that.

Do not get me wrong I do not condone drug use and frankly likely few people do, but it has become clear that incarcerating people for years for non-violent crimes has not worked very well and so we have to do something else if we want things to change as clearly locking people up for drug problems ( whether it has made them homeless or not has proven to be very costly and not very effective thus not a very good use of taxpayer money.
So I hat do you suggest we do?
 
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dogs4thewin

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What’s a drug court?
Basically what happens is that if someone is a non-violent drug offender and their crime directly or indirectly is caused by that use either because they were caught with drugs on them or because they were caught committing a NON-violent (usually)crime such as burglary fraud, ECT the judge has the option of placing them in a program (if they are willing)and are accepted into the program meaning they are non-violent and the team feels that they are a good match/would benefit they can tell the judge no I would whether be locked up) If they go with the drug court then instead of being locked-up and team that includes the judge, someone from the DA's office, a public defender, probation officer and sometimes others will work to create a plan designed to help them ( usually these are somewhat personalized).

Usually, the courts start out with very regular meetings with the judge/team like weekly ( as opposed to regular probation where usually especially felony probation you only see the judge again if you violate ) As you go through the program (usually a year or even two in lenlth (minimum ) the meetings will drop to maybe twice a month and then monthly and at the end even maybe quarterly ( it depends on the court as each court basically runs itself.

During the program there will be requirements such as drug tests (often) though like the meetings those decrease as the person works through the program, AA/ NA meetings sometimes more than once a week although they to can taper off as time goes on ( mandatory meetings anyway) There will also usually be meetings with a drug counselor one on one same applies with the decrease in meetings. Other requirements include community services, paying fines/fees, employment or schooling and can include other requirements for a particular defendant as the team deems fit.

If the person violates the terms of the program then they can face things like increased supervision, more community service inpatient treatment, house arrest or short term jail sentences in local custody ( think a couple of weeks to a month) (this includes relapses As they progress through the program they may get rewards such as reduced supervision little coins ECT

Now, it is clear that the person does not care they keep relapsing ( often) missing tests, court ECT the judge will kick them out of the program and they will face a regular jail or prison sentence that can last years ( so it is not a free pass the addict has to want it and put in the work, but it is not usually a one bite at the apple thing either as they realize quitting is far from easy particularly if the person has been using for years.

On the other hand if the person completes the program then the benefits can range anywhere from just yay and drug free healthier life to a reduced or even dismissed charge ( depending on the court and/or deal worked out when the program was entered .



Not everyone makes it through the program in fact depending on the court the "failure" rate can be greater than 50%, but those who do graduate have a MUCH MUCH MUCH lower rate of reoffending than those who do not complete such programs ( think like between 50 and 90 percent less likely. Plus even those who "fail" and go to prison will often come out and STILL be less likely to reoffend than those who did not do a drug court at all.


These programs not only result in much lower rates of people reoffending, but are also FAR FAR FAR cheaper per person as in 1,000s less because for one thing the person is out in the community( meaning that the county/state is not paying to feed/house/clothe them plus medical treatment . For another the person is paying fees/ fines and any money owed to the victims ( hard to do that if you are incarcerated) They are also of course adding to the economy.

There are also programs called veterans' court (for veterans whose service led to issues that caused them to break the law ( PTSD drug problems ECT. These programs are usually led by judges who are themselves veterans and are designed basically for veterans/by veterans as there is a bond that frankly civilians would not understand.

There are also mental health courts for non-violent offenders whose crimes are brought on by mental health issues ( Depression, bipolar disorder PTSD ect.

These are known broadly as problem solving courts and have been found very effective and much cheaper than traditional court/incarceration
 
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dogs4thewin

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No. I’m suggesting you own a house to live in and that’s it. One house. Then renters who want to buy have an easier go at it.
You are always going to have renters though that is why I asked because you will have people who will rent whether it be for the benefits of renting or because they do not want to be tied down to a house for years on end.
 
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dogs4thewin

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So I hat do you suggest we do?
The long post above. I am not saying that incarceration even for non-violent offenders does not have its place I am suggesting that sentences that last for years and years for non-violent crimes is not very effective ( especially if there are not programs in the prisons to address the issues and/or allow them to learn a trade ( which to their credit most do have some.)
 
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BNR32FAN

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Basically what happens is that if someone is a non-violent drug offender and their crime directly or indirectly is caused by that use either because they were caught with drugs on them or because they were caught committing a NON-violent (usually)crime such as burglary fraud, ECT the judge has the option of placing them in a program (if they are willing)and are accepted into the program meaning they are non-violent and the team feels that they are a good match/would benefit they can tell the judge no I would whether be locked up) If they go with the drug court then instead of being locked-up and team that includes the judge, someone from the DA's office, a public defender, probation officer and sometimes others will work to create a plan designed to help them ( usually these are somewhat personalized).

Usually, the courts start out with very regular meetings with the judge/team like weekly ( as opposed to regular probation where usually especially felony probation you only see the judge again if you violate ) As you go through the program (usually a year or even two in lenlth (minimum ) the meetings will drop to maybe twice a month and then monthly and at the end even maybe quarterly ( it depends on the court as each court basically runs itself.

During the program there will be requirements such as drug tests (often) though like the meetings those decrease as the person works through the program, AA/ NA meetings sometimes more than once a week although they to can taper off as time goes on ( mandatory meetings anyway) There will also usually be meetings with a drug counselor one on one same applies with the decrease in meetings. Other requirements include community services, paying fines/fees, employment or schooling and can include other requirements for a particular defendant as the team deems fit.

If the person violates the terms of the program then they can face things like increased supervision, more community service inpatient treatment, house arrest or short term jail sentences in local custody ( think a couple of weeks to a month) (this includes relapses As they progress through the program they may get rewards such as reduced supervision little coins ECT

Now, it is clear that the person does not care they keep relapsing ( often) missing tests, court ECT the judge will kick them out of the program and they will face a regular jail or prison sentence that can last years ( so it is not a free pass the addict has to want it and put in the work, but it is not usually a one bite at the apple thing either as they realize quitting is far from easy particularly if the person has been using for years.

On the other hand if the person completes the program then the benefits can range anywhere from just yay and drug free healthier life to a reduced or even dismissed charge ( depending on the court and/or deal worked out when the program was entered .



Not everyone makes it through the program in fact depending on the court the "failure" rate can be greater than 50%, but those who do graduate have a MUCH MUCH MUCH lower rate of reoffending than those who do not complete such programs ( think like between 50 and 90 percent less likely. Plus even those who "fail" and go to prison will often come out and STILL be less likely to reoffend than those who did not do a drug court at all.


These programs not only result in much lower rates of people reoffending, but are also FAR FAR FAR cheaper per person as in 1,000s less because for one thing the person is out in the community( meaning that the county/state is not paying to feed/house/clothe them plus medical treatment . For another the person is paying fees/ fines and any money owed to the victims ( hard to do that if you are incarcerated) They are also of course adding to the economy.

There are also programs called veterans' court (for veterans whose service led to issues that caused them to break the law ( PTSD drug problems ECT. These programs are usually led by judges who are themselves veterans and are designed basically for veterans/by veterans as there is a bond that frankly civilians would not understand.

There are also mental health courts for non-violent offenders whose crimes are brought on by mental health issues ( Depression, bipolar disorder PTSD ect.

These are known broadly as problem solving courts and have been found very effective and much cheaper than traditional court/incarceration
Homeless people are paying these fines and money owed to the victims? What you’re describing here doesn’t sound like a program for homeless people it sounds like a program for people who actually have a job and a place of residency. This type of program is destined to fail in homeless addict cases because they have no transportation, they have no means of income, they don’t care about any of that, that’s why they gave up everything in life because all they care about is their next high. Sincerely no offense intended but it doesn’t seem like you understand the mindset of homeless addicts. These people have a physical dependency and there are numerous programs out there to help them but most of them are not interested because they know it involves them having to endure the pains of detox and they absolutely fear that experience. Even when they do try they quit because they have that option. When they start to experience the effects of detox on their body they want nothing more than to get out and get high to make it go away. Jail time on the other hand removes that option and actually forces them into detox because there is no other option so when they get out they’re already past the hard part. Unfortunately most of them revert back. That’s just their mentality.
 
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dogs4thewin

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Homeless people are paying these fines and money owed to the victims? What you’re describing here doesn’t sound like a program for homeless people it sounds like a program for people who actually have a job and a place of residency. This type of program is destined to fail in homeless addict cases because they have no transportation, they have no means of income, they don’t care about any of that, that’s why they gave up everything in life because all they care about is their next high. Sincerely no offense intended but it doesn’t seem like you understand the mindset of homeless addicts. These people have a physical dependency and there are numerous programs out there to help them but most of them are not interested because they know it involves them having to endure the pains of detox and they absolutely fear that experience. Even when they do try they quit because they have that option. When they start to experience the effects of detox on their body they want nothing more than to get out and get high to make it go away. Jail time on the other hand removes that option and actually forces them into detox because there is no other option so when they get out they’re already past the hard part. Unfortunately most of them revert back. That’s just their mentality.
that is why they have to want it because usually drug courts do help with such things as housing (part of what the team does at the beginning they do have to want it . Also, as to you saying that jail time removes that option you can get just about anything inside that you can get outside. Moreover, in terms of detox you are right many of them are scared of that experience, but there have been times when a county has paid dearly I am talking millions of dollars for failing to ensure proper detox in a wrongful death suit,
 
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