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Two Goats

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by visionary, Aug 12, 2014.

  1. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    There are multiple modern explanations, but only one ancient explanation, that is known to us.

    If you read the link, which is much more eloquent and informative than I am able to be, you'll find out - among other things - that:

    The Abingdon Bible Commentary states:
    The translation dismissal in the R.V. mg. here (cf. removal in A.S.V. mg.) is inadmissible, being based on false etymology. What the word meant is unknown, but it should be retained as the proper name of a wilderness demon. (p. 289)
    In his Bible dictionary, James Hastings states:


    'Azazel must have been such a[n evil] spirit, sufficiently distinguished from the rest, in popular imagination, to receive a special name, and no doubt invested with attributes which, though unknown to us, were perfectly familiar to those for whom the ceremonial of Lv 16 was first designed. (pp. 207-208, vol. 1, A Dictionary of the Bible)

    ...

    The Soncino Chumash says that 'azazel "is a compound of azaz, 'to be strong,' and el, 'mighty'" (p. 706). The Hebrew word 'el is often translated as "God" in the Old Testament. It is frequently used in combination with other words in proper names (i.e., Daniel - "God is my judge"; Samuel - "name of God"; Penuel - "face of God"; etc.). Therefore, as a proper name, Azazel could positively mean "strong one of God" or negatively it could imply "belligerent toward God."


    Link:
    Azazel - Here a little, there a little - Spirit Realm
     
  2. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    He is the one who carried our sins...

    Rabbi Shimon Ben Yochai

    “The meaning of the words Bruised for our iniquities’ (Isaiah 53:5) is that since the Messiah bears our iniquities, which produce the effect of his being bruised, it follows that whoso will not admit that the Messiah thus suffers for our iniquities, must endure and suffer them for them himself.”

    A Day of Atonement Musaf prayer

    “Our righteous anointed one is departed from us: horror hath seized us, and we have none to justify us. He hath bore the yoke of our iniquities, and our transgression. He bore our sins on his shoulder, that he may find pardon for our iniquities. We shall be healed by his wound...”

    Talmud tractate Sanhedrin

    “The Rabanan say that Messiah’s name is The Suffering Scholar…for it is written, “Surely He hath borne our grief and carried our sorrows, yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted.” [Isaiah 53:4]

    Maimonides wrote:
    “Yet he carried our sicknesses, being himself sick and distressed for the transgressions which should have caused sickness and distress in us, and bearing the pains which we ought to have experienced. But we, when we saw him weakened and prostrate, thought we were healed (Isaiah 53:5) – because the stripes by which he was vexed and distressed will heal us: God will pardon us for His righteousness, and we shall be healed from our own transgressions and from the iniquities of our fathers.”

    Midrash Aseret Memrot

    “The Messiah, in order to atone for them both (Adam and David) will ‘make his soul a trespass offering,’ (Isaiah 53:10).”

    Rabbi Moshe Alshekh, the famous 16th century rabbinic scholar

    “Rabbis with one voice, accept and affirm the opinion that the prophet (Speaking of Isaiah 53) is speaking of king Messiah.”

    (parentheses mine)

    He bore OUR iniquities and transgressions...God laid on Him the iniquity of us all...and His blood has been sprinkled on many nations...Thank you Lord Yeshua, our Messiah....

    Paul
     
  3. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    Yeshua is just not the goat for Azazel. That makes no sense. He'd be the goat for YHWH, if he must be either of the goats.

    According to Enoch, Azazel was cast into the abyss; so it makes sense for the goat for Azazel to be cast into an abyss.
     
  4. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    According to Jewish sources, the scapegoat was led into the wilderness and pushed over a cliff and was dashed to pieces on the way down.

    Doesn't fit the theory that it represented Christ at all.
     
  5. daq

    daq Messianic

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    :thumbsup:



    :thumbsup: And what is the most likely reason that this tradition was carried out? Surely it is because of the theologically catastrophic consequences of the goat possibly wandering back into the camp with all the sins of the people upon its head. The tradition makes all the sense in the world even though it is not outwardly commanded in the surface text. :)


    None of the sources even suggest that Yeshua was to be the goat for Azazel whose blood was not even shed to begin with except in the tradition. In addition have you ever noticed that right in the middle of a dissertation on the Day of Atonement and various other sacrifices the author of the epistle to the Hebrews states the following?

    Hebrews 9:28 KJV
    28. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


    This is right in the midst of a discussion concerning Yom Kippurim which continues into the next chapter, (see Hebrews 9:7 & 10:3 for verification). The author makes this point clear in the middle of the discourse so that the reader does NOT mistakenly think that Yeshua is represented in the goat sent away into the wilderness with all the sins upon its head. :)
     
  6. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    Again Enoch is not the word of God (though it contains some) when He died for our sins He descended into Sheol and yet rose again on the third day (He Himself being sinless, death could not hold Him)...IMO He is both as one...sin had to be removed (one of the innocent goats represents this, our sin being laid on him) and we had to be covered by the blood (the purpose of the other innocent goat) for the full meaning of atonement to be applicable, Yeshua accomplished both purposes. As Daq just pointed out the effect of the latter is more properly fulfilled/realized when He returns but this does not take away from His purpose in this the first time. Remember the goat called "for aza'el" (which is not Torah) was as innocent as the other goat, only he bore our iniquities and transgressions (this can never be said of the devil). And no, no protestant missionary preaches this, so do not say that is what is going on here, as I am neither, just a student of the word.

    20 And when he hath made an end of atoning for the holy place, and the tent of meeting, and the altar, he shall present the live goat.

    21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, even all their sins; and he shall put them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of an appointed man into the wilderness.

    22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land which is cut off; and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

    But this is done to an innocent lamb/goat not an evil one....OUR iniquities and transgressions are laid on him...this is Torah.

    Paul
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2014
  7. daq

    daq Messianic

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    Back to Yeshayah 53 eh Paul? If you do not separate the flesh from the vessel of the spirit you cannot have a perfect and pure sacrifice. There is no way around it, (and the flesh profits nothing in the doctrine of the Master). Yonah and I had a short exchange concerning this in the peanut gallery thread for the formal debate between the two of you. This is not to drag Yonah into this, (if he desires he will surely respond) and not to rehash the peanut gallery thread either because I do not plan to post in that thread any further, but I see no harm in bringing some of those comments here to your attention because they likewise apply herein. Do you suppose then Yeshua could possibly have been a leper as per some of the quotes you have made above and some of the quotes you placed in your formal debate thread? If indeed Yeshua was a leper, (only physical and of the flesh) then how do you account for that in your atonement theory? Can you have leper for a sacrifice? Even more so a leper sacrificed for your atonement as per your atonement theory?

    Iniquities and sicknesses are not the same things: physical sickness does not equal sin or transgression. Sicknesses, griefs, and sorrows are not "borne" in the same manner as iniquities and transgressions which are nasa'-"lifted off" from a person by the priest. However the priest only temporarily "lifts off", (nasa') the transgressions and sins so as to place them upon the head of the scapegoat to be sent away into the wilderness, (which goat then becomes an unclean spirit in the symbolism). The priest NEVER takes iniquities, transgressions, or sins, and places them upon his own head.
     
  8. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    No not back to Isaiah 53, that was Leviticus 16, "for Azazel" does not mean he was the devil or even representative of the devil....for azazel (which does not follow "in the wilderness" in the Hebrew Torah) means for or as a scapegoat...a scapegoat is one on whom someone else's faults are blamed, or paid for by....
     
  9. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    That contradicts the Torah Steve...the Torah does not say the scapegoat was led and then pushed over a cliff, they made that up to defend their position...ot says he was led out into the wilderness and "let go"...

    Which is correct Torah or later commentators? Hmmm? Which shall I place my trust in? Hmmm?

    Sorry, not meaning to be sarcastic just surprised....for me Torah wins....the peoples iniquities and transgressions were laid on him (he himself had none of his own)...both goats before serving their purpose were identical...blameless without blemish...
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2014
  10. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    Torah gives ALMOST NO DETAIL on ANY matter AT ALL.
    It makes complete sense for there to be a largesse of detail preserved in oral or written traditions outside Torah, if you really really think about it.

    Carrying out most mitzvot is impossible if we use Torah as our only and single source, as most Rabbis will tell you. And they're right, and must be heeded, as Messiah commands (Matthew 23:1-3).
     
  11. pshun2404

    pshun2404 Newbie

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    1,000s and 1,000s of years later? No wonder the Calvinists think they are justified in their doctrines! Someone had convinced them what it says is not really what it means but that needs to be clarified by what some else said it means...what happened to not varying to the right or left, or not adding to or taking away from? Oh well...no wonder there is so much controversy...the consensus of the different groups creates lots of pilpul....so the group we each side with becomes the one we were taught...can't the word speak for itself? If it does not mean what it says, then why translate it to say what it does not mean? Was not the purpose of the goat to bear OUR sins and die unto them? Was not the purpose of the first of Messiah's coming's to bear our sins and die unto them?
     
  12. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    Just because Reformed Christian or Catholic tradition is not the true tradition does not mean there isn't a true tradition.

    However I ask you to consider the fact that there is an actual NEED for a tradition, seeing as the written Torah actually doesn't give us as much detail as we actually need to realistically implement many if not most of the commandments. It also "fails" to adress exceptions and unique circumstances, whereas Oral Torah goes out of its way to adress every possible imaginable scenario and exception and unique circumstance. I put "fail" in quotation marks, because it doesn't truly fail at it, since such elaboration is not the function of the written Torah to begin with; it is the designated function of the Oral Torah / Tradition.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2014
  13. daq

    daq Messianic

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    Perhaps this may help? :)
    Yeshua is not even a "goat" but rather called "the Lamb of God".
    Yeshua is the final Kohen Gadol after the order of Melkizedek.
    You also are supposed to be a "priest" serving under him in your own "household".

    Being so caught up in the idea of "sending away all of your sins upon the head of Yeshua" it seems you do not even realize you have almost entirely misunderstood and misappropriated the symbolism for your own perceived "spiritual" benefit. It is the Testimony of Yeshua which delivers us because, as he says, that spiritual "food" which the Son of man will give you endures to life everlasting, (and him the Father sealed, thus, sealing his Testimony). However that Testimony will only deliver you if you consume all of it and carry it out within your own self, in your own walk, and in your own life. Instead of condemning the guiltless try dividing your own house as commanded and send your own shaggy twin to the lake of fire, O priest. :)
     
  14. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    Enoch says about Azazel:
    The whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.
    — 1 Enoch 10:8​

    I don't fully know what that means, but it surely relates to the goat for Azazel described in Bamidbar.
     
  15. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    It is clear in scripture of which each goat represents... on to YHWH and the other is the scapegoat known as Azazel.
    It was seen that while the sin offering pointed to Yeshua as a sacrifice, and the High Priest represented Yeshua as a mediator by our Most Holy God. The scapegoat typified Satan, the author of sin, upon whom the sins of the truly penitent will finally be placed. When the high priest, by virtue of the blood of the sin offering, removed the sins from the sanctuary, he placed them upon the scapegoat.
    When Yeshua, by virtue of His own blood, removes the sins of His people from the heavenly sanctuary at the close of His ministration, He will place them upon Satan, who, in the execution of the judgment, must bear the final penalty. Who could be more fit than another angel to take care of this bad angel.
    The scapegoat was sent away into a land not inhabited, never to come again into the congregation of Israel. So will Satan be forever banished from the presence of God and His people, and he will be blotted from existence in the final destruction of sin and sinners.
     
  16. Hoshiyya

    Hoshiyya Spenglerian

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    It is critical that we understand it says the goat is TO / FOR (or maybe even ON BEHALF OF) Azazel. The goat is never itself called Azazel.
     
  17. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Enoch explains some of the things that Azazel taught man.
    Weapons of war for men and vanity for women.
     
  18. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    The whole ceremony was designed to impress the Israelites with the holiness of God and His abhorrence of sin. It is suppose to help us understand that you can not come in contact with sin without becoming polluted. Every man and woman is required to afflict their soul. Since we do not know which Yom Kippur will be the last one, it behooves us all to go to the throne of grace now and learn what sins cling to us and how to be forever separated from them. It is so important while this work of atonement was going forward.

    On Yom Kippur, all business was to be laid aside, and the whole congregation of Israel were to spend the day in solemn humiliation before God, with prayer, fasting, and deep searching of heart. Prophetic truths concerning the atonement are taught by the typical service for our benefit. We are not to be in the dark as to why He had these feasts laid out the way that He did. We are to know why, what, where, and be in the good part.

    A substitute was accepted in the sinner’s stead; but the sin was not canceled by the blood of the victim. A means was thus provided by which it was transferred to the sanctuary. By the offering of blood the sinner acknowledged the authority of the law, confessed his guilt in transgression, and expressed his desire for pardon through faith in a Redeemer to come; but he was not yet entirely released from the condemnation of the law. On the Day of Atonement the high priest, having taken an offering from the congregation, went into the most holy place with the blood of this offering, and sprinkled it upon the mercy seat, directly over the law, to make satisfaction for its claims.

    Then, in his character of mediator, he took the sins upon himself and bore them from the sanctuary. Placing his hands upon the head of the scapegoat, he confessed over him all these sins, thus in figure transferring them from himself to the goat. The goat then bore them away, and they were regarded as forever separated from the people.

    Such was the service performed “unto the example and shadow of heavenly things.” And what was done in type in the ministration of the earthly sanctuary is done in reality in the ministration of the heavenly sanctuary. After His ascension our Messiah began His work as our high priest.
     
  19. BukiRob

    BukiRob Newbie

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    This kind of thinking stems from the false "grace only" doctrine. This is what happens when you throw out the majority of scripture then being unstable and immature you read Paul and misunderstand/misinterpret what he is saying. It leads to an idolatrous way of thinking.
     
  20. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    In the Book of Enoch, we are told that as punishment for his sins, the fallen angel of war, Azazel, was thrown into a pit in the ‘Wilderness of Dudael,’ and left there to await Final Judgment. Although no one knows to where the name ‘Dudael’ refers, ‘Dudael’ also means ‘Great Desert’ and ‘Fiery Caldron.’ There is one place in Israel that fits that description... the Negev, which has one of its borders on…Gaza/Aza. So how do places come by their names? Often they are given names either relating to important people, events, history and the like. Is it mere coincidence that Gaza/Aza has the same name as one of the leaders of the fallen angels?
    Azazel’s place of imprisonment, Dudael, mentioned in 1 Enoch 10:4-8 has some interesting root meaning. It is derived from dadah el (la hdd) meaning “submission to God”. Dadah (hdd - Strongs 1718) used in the Bible in a couple of other places (Ps 42:4, Isa 38:15) as ‘to submit’. The Arabic root meaning ‘to waver’ or ‘to totter’. Being bound in Dudael, Azazel is bound in a place of probably unwilling “submission to God”.

    Dudael is sometimes referred to by other names. Yoma 6:8 of the Mishnah refers to the place as Beth Hadudu (wdwdx tyb), which literally means ‘house of his piercing.’ The second word comes from the root hadad (ddx -Strongs 2300), meaning ‘to be sharp’. As Conick points out, Beth Hadudu is probably based on some clever Hebrew wordplay, for in Enoch 10:5 Azazel is tossed upon rough and jagged rocks, and the root hadad sounds similar to dadah.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2014
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