Two Goats

[visionary]

Book of Enoch is considered as apocryphal, it was clearly known to early Christian writers as the following quote from 1 Enoch 1:9 indicates:

"In the seventh (generation) from Adam Enoch also prophesied these things, saying:

Jude 14-15 Behold, the Lord came with his holy myriads, to execute judgment on all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners spoke against him.

According to information provided by the Jewish Publication Society (the organization that published the 1917 and 1984 redactions of the Tanach) the 2013 redaction will include a version of the book of Enoch based on findings from history and the Dead Sea Scrolls.

 

[visionary]

Ok, so where is this third goat from Leviticus 10:16-18 which is to be eaten?

Leviticus 6:30
30. And no sin offering, whereof any of the blood is brought into the tabernacle of the congregation to reconcile withal in the holy place, shall be eaten: it shall be burnt in the fire.

Leviticus 10:16-18
16. And Moses diligently sought the goat of the sin offering, and, behold, it was burnt: and he was angry with Eleazar and Ithamar, the sons of Aaron which were left alive, saying,
17. Wherefore have ye not eaten the sin offering in the holy place, seeing it is most holy, and God hath given it you to bear the iniquity of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord?
18. Behold, the blood of it was not brought in within the holy place: ye should indeed have eaten it in the holy place, as I commanded.

This may be why Yom Kippurim was moved to 10 Tishri but that does not negate the fact that the two goats from Leviticus 16 cannot be eaten and, therefore, this is a third goat for a sin offering from Leviticus 10:16-18. The one goat chosen by lot to/for `Aza'zel is sent away into the desert alive while the other two are slain. The one chosen by lot from Leviticus 16, which is slain, and whose blood was brought into the sanctuary for the atonements, that one cannot be eaten.

Leviticus 16:29-31 RSV
29. "And it shall be a statute to you for ever that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict yourselves, and shall do no work, either the native or the stranger who sojourns among you;
30. for on this day [the day wherein Nadab and Abihu died, Leviticus 16:1] shall atonement be made for you, to cleanse you; from all your sins you shall be clean before the Lord.
31. It is a sabbath of solemn rest to you, and you shall afflict yourselves; it is a statute for ever.

Is the Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover or Wave Sheaf the same event? Yet Passover and Wave Sheaf/First Fruits is around the Feast of Unleavened Bread. There is a distinction. Same with the third goat which is not part of the Yom Kippur services.

 

[rick357]

Is the Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover or Wave Sheaf the same event? Yet Passover and Wave Sheaf/First Fruits is around the Feast of Unleavened Bread. There is a distinction. Same with the third goat which is not part of the Yom Kippur services.

Understood...thank you for the thread

 

[daq]

Is the Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover or Wave Sheaf the same event? Yet Passover and Wave Sheaf/First Fruits is around the Feast of Unleavened Bread. There is a distinction. Same with the third goat which is not part of the Yom Kippur services.

While I am surely at a disadvantage, having tradition against what I believe to be the case, still yet it is fact that the setting up of the Mishkan was commenced in 1 Abib accordingly as Moshe was commanded. The brazen altar of burnt offering sacrifice was to be cleansed-atoned for seven days and then anointed with the seventh day. Ahron and his sons are then anointed together with the brazen altar of burnt offering sacrifice and they themselves are then consecrated yet another seven days after their anointing. Thus the day wherein Nadab and Abihu died was the same calendar day wherein Yeshua Bar-Abbas was "let go". This is probably not what you meant in your statement but if perchance it was you might better understand where all of this leads.

 

[visionary]

While I am surely at a disadvantage, having tradition against what I believe to be the case, still yet it is fact that the setting up of the Mishkan was commenced in 1 Abib accordingly as Moshe was commanded. The brazen altar of burnt offering sacrifice was to be cleansed-atoned for seven days and then anointed with the seventh day. Ahron and his sons are then anointed together with the brazen altar of burnt offering sacrifice and they themselves are then consecrated yet another seven days after their anointing. Thus the day wherein Nadab and Abihu died was the same calendar day wherein Yeshua Bar-Abbas was "let go". This is probably not what you meant in your statement but if perchance it was you might better understand where all of this leads.

Cool... Another interesting thing that goes along with what you are saying is the fact that part that right before the High Priest performed the Yom Kippur services, if there is a change of positions, this is the time that they do it. In ancient times this position was handed down from father to son within a few priestly families

Lev 16:32 The priest who is anointed and ordained to succeed his father as high priest is to make atonement. He is to put on the sacred linen garments

This tradition was undermined, to a certain extent, by the Hasmoneans, who, themselves priests, appropriated this lofty position. After the rise of the Herodian dynasty and in the days of the Roman governors, corruption was involved in the appointment of priests, and the high priesthood was sometimes awarded to people who paid enormous sums in order to purchase the honor.

 

[rick357]

Cool... Another interesting thing that goes along with what you are saying is the fact that part that right before the High Priest performed the Yom Kippur services, if there is a change of positions, this is the time that they do it. In ancient times this position was handed down from father to son within a few priestly families

This tradition was undermined, to a certain extent, by the Hasmoneans, who, themselves priests, appropriated this lofty position. After the rise of the Herodian dynasty and in the days of the Roman governors, corruption was involved in the appointment of priests, and the high priesthood was sometimes awarded to people who paid enormous sums in order to purchase the honor.

Do you think this is in the parable of vinyard keepers who thought to killvthe Son and take his inheritance for themselves

 

[visionary]

Do you think this is in the parable of vinyard keepers who thought to kill the Son and take his inheritance for themselves

I can see what you are saying.

 

[daq]

Cool... Another interesting thing that goes along with what you are saying is the fact that part that right before the High Priest performed the Yom Kippur services, if there is a change of positions, this is the time that they do it. In ancient times this position was handed down from father to son within a few priestly families

This tradition was undermined, to a certain extent, by the Hasmoneans, who, themselves priests, appropriated this lofty position. After the rise of the Herodian dynasty and in the days of the Roman governors, corruption was involved in the appointment of priests, and the high priesthood was sometimes awarded to people who paid enormous sums in order to purchase the honor.

Like I keep pointing out, this sin sacrifice is after the High Priest is finished the Yom Kippur services.

Ok, so where is this third goat from Leviticus 10:16-18 which is to be eaten?

Leviticus 6:30
30. And no sin offering, whereof any of the blood is brought into the tabernacle of the congregation to reconcile withal in the holy place, shall be eaten: it shall be burnt in the fire.

Leviticus 10:16-18
16. And Moses diligently sought the goat of the sin offering, and, behold, it was burnt: and he was angry with Eleazar and Ithamar, the sons of Aaron which were left alive, saying,
17. Wherefore have ye not eaten the sin offering in the holy place, seeing it is most holy, and God hath given it you to bear the iniquity of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord?
18. Behold, the blood of it was not brought in within the holy place: ye should indeed have eaten it in the holy place, as I commanded.

This may be why Yom Kippurim was moved to 10 Tishri but that does not negate the fact that the two goats from Leviticus 16 cannot be eaten and, therefore, this is a third goat for a sin offering from Leviticus 10:16-18. The one goat chosen by lot to/for `Aza'zel is sent away into the desert alive while the other two are slain. The one chosen by lot from Leviticus 16, which is slain, and whose blood was brought into the sanctuary for the atonements, that one cannot be eaten.

Leviticus 16:29-31 RSV
29. "And it shall be a statute to you for ever that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict yourselves, and shall do no work, either the native or the stranger who sojourns among you;
30. for on this day [the day wherein Nadab and Abihu died, Leviticus 16:1] shall atonement be made for you, to cleanse you; from all your sins you shall be clean before the Lord.
31. It is a sabbath of solemn rest to you, and you shall afflict yourselves; it is a statute for ever.

It is found here at the beginning of the day Vis:

Leviticus 9:1-15 KJV
1. And it came to pass on the eighth day, that Moses called Aaron and his sons, and the elders of Israel;
2. And he said unto Aaron, Take thee a young calf for a sin offering, and a ram for a burnt offering, without blemish, and offer them before the Lord.
3. And unto the children of Israel thou shalt speak, saying, Take ye a kid of the goats for a sin offering; and a calf and a lamb, both of the first year, without blemish, for a burnt offering;
4. Also a bullock and a ram for peace offerings, to sacrifice before the Lord; and a meat offering mingled with oil: for to day the Lord will appear unto you.
5. And they brought that which Moses commanded before the tabernacle of the congregation: and all the congregation drew near and stood before the Lord.
6. And Moses said, This is the thing which the Lord commanded that ye should do: and the glory of the Lord shall appear unto you.
7. And Moses said unto Aaron, Go unto the altar, and offer thy sin offering, and thy burnt offering, and make an atonement for thyself, and for the people: and offer the offering of the people, and make an atonement for them; as the Lord commanded.
8. Aaron therefore went unto the altar, and slew the calf of the sin offering, which was for himself.
9. And the sons of Aaron brought the blood unto him: and he dipped his finger in the blood, and put it upon the horns of the altar, [the brazen altar of burnt offering sacrifice] and poured out the blood at the bottom of the altar:
10. But the fat, and the kidneys, and the caul above the liver of the sin offering, he burnt upon the altar; as the Lord commanded Moses.
11. And the flesh and the hide he burnt with fire without the camp.
12. And he slew the burnt offering; and Aaron's sons presented unto him the blood, which he sprinkled round about upon the altar.
13. And they presented the burnt offering unto him, with the pieces thereof, and the head: and he burnt them upon the altar.
14. And he did wash the inwards and the legs, and burnt them upon the burnt offering on the altar.
15. And he brought the people's offering, and took the goat, which was the sin offering for the people, and slew it, and offered it for sin, as the first.

Have you ever noticed that the brazen altar of sacrifice is not first atoned in the Leviticus 16 ceremonies? The two days must be combined to get the full understanding. This third goat highlighted in the above passage, (which is really the first goat of the day apart from the continual morning offering of a lamb) is the goat of the sin offering for the people whose blood is placed upon the horns of the brazen altar of burnt offering sacrifice. This goat is offered before the Leviticus 16 events, in the morning, and the blood of this one makes atonement upon the horns of the brazen altar. This one is therefore the one which was to be eaten by the priests because its blood was not brought in to make atonement anywhere inside the sanctuary, (and, thus, this is the goat mentioned in Leviticus 10:16-18). I believe Numbers 29:11 simply codifies this "third goat" but even if that is not the case the fact remains that there are three sa`iyrim of the `iziym; one to atone the brazen altar and make atonement for the people; one to atone inside the holyiest, and the holy place sanctuary with the incense altar of gold, for the people: and the shaggy twin sent away into the dry-arid-desert places with all the sins upon his mortally wounded head to/for Caesar-`Aza'zel.

 

[pshun2404]

The history of why Enoch is, was, and is not canonical is very interesting. Study to learn what Enoch is all about, why Jude quotes him, and what and why religious political powers made this decision. About 300 the Christian Church began to discredit the book. The Ethiopic Book of Enoch is one of the most important pieces of apocalyptic literature. It furnishes extensive contributions to our knowledge of Jewish understanding before AD. It shows apocalyptic literature in its beginnings, and above all it is a source of information upon the religious ideas of Judaism, especially concerning the Messiah. It also pictures the feelings of the people during the time of the Hasmoneans. PS... Judaism doesn't do "canonical".

I understand the place held by the Book of Enoch in early times but again no one considered it actually having been written by Enoch or an "inspired" God breathed work except maybe the Ethiopians (though it does, just as other apocryphal and pseudipigraphic works, contain some truth, some prophetic utterance, but mostly fictional speculation and sometimes distorted legendized history)...and as for Jude, it was not questioned after 300 years, it was never accepted until after 300 years (prior to that it was always counted among the five possibly spurious books). But here is something you said that baffles me...

PS... Judaism doesn't do "canonical".

I realize the word "canonical" or "canon" is from a Greek term used later by Christians but the idea of only a select number of books being taken as "inspired" is totally Jewish in origin...that is why even as late as 900 C.E. the Rabbis still only included what we might know as the 22 (some divide into 24) scrolls...and when Yeshua quotes the Tanakh He only refers to the the three sections with reverence or authority (the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms)...so maybe your version of modern Judaism does not do what we know as canonical but early Judaism apparently did (at least regarding Torah, the accepted prophetic texts, and the Psalms)...

In His love

Paul

 

[daq]

I understand the place held by the Book of Enoch in early times but again no one considered it actually having been written by Enoch or an "inspired" God breathed work except maybe the Ethiopians (though it does, just as other apocryphal and pseudipigraphic works, contain some truth, some prophetic utterance, but mostly fictional speculation and sometimes distorted legendized history)...and as for Jude, it was not questioned after 300 years, it was never accepted until after 300 years (prior to that it was always counted among the five possibly spurious books). But here is something you said that baffles me...

PS... Judaism doesn't do "canonical".

I realize the word "canonical" or "canon" is from a Greek term used later by Christians but the idea of only a select number of books being taken as "inspired" is totally Jewish in origin...that is why even as late as 900 C.E. the Rabbis still only included what we might know as the 22 (some divide into 24) scrolls...and when Yeshua quotes the Tanakh He only refers to the the three sections with reverence or authority (the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms)...so maybe your version of modern Judaism does not do what we know as canonical but early Judaism apparently did (at least regarding Torah, the accepted prophetic texts, and the Psalms)...

In His love

Paul

Hi Paul, you still never gave any answer for Luke 11:19-26 concerning unclean spirits:

Luke 11:19-26 KJV
19. And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.
20. But if I with the finger of God [Kohen Gadol] cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
21. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
22. But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
23. He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.
24. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

Yes...too bad this fake Enoch was amiss in his use of this name making a faulty association...the aza'zel of Leviticus 16 is not truly a bad thing but a good one...with our sins still applied to ourselves we cannot go before God.

There are Enoch fragments from Dammeseq older than anything in the Apostolic writings and likewise Enoch is referenced in Jude. However, more importantly, you ignored the Testimony of Yeshua which I quoted and there is so much more from the N/C writings that one actually does not even need Enoch to understand those things.

Have you ever had an unclean spirit cast out of you according to what is written or no?

 

[pshun2404]

Hi Paul, you still never gave any answer for Luke 11:19-26 concerning unclean spirits:

Have you ever had an unclean spirit cast out of you according to what is written or no?

First off no I have never had an unclean spirit cast out of me according to what is written here...and the reason I did not address this particular point was that IMO it had nothing whatsoever to do with the content of our discussion (the two goats)...but if you wish to draw attention to your point which you somehow associate perhaps I can address my understanding more clearly.

Thanks

Paul

 

[daq]

First off no I have never had an unclean spirit cast out of me according to what is written here...and the reason I did not address this particular point was that IMO it had nothing whatsoever to do with the content of our discussion (the two goats)...but if you wish to draw attention to your point which you somehow associate perhaps I can address my understanding more clearly.

Thanks

Paul

Actually I did not say "according to what is written here" but rather "according to what is written" yet still it has everything to do with what is also written here in this thread. According to Paul every talmid who has entered into Yeshua faithfulness was formerly serving "the prince of the power of the air". If therefore you include Ephesians 2 in your theology then how can the following statement not apply to you?

Ephesians 2:1-3 KJV
1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Who is this "prince of the power of the air" that the Ephesians, (and all talmidim of Yeshua) formerly served in the above passage? Is this the same "spirit of the world" from 1Cor.2:6-14? Does Paul get this prince of the power of the air from somewhere in TaNaK or do you suppose he invents the phrase out of thin air?

Daniel 8:5
5. And as I was considering, behold, an tspiyr- ha`iziym he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not ba'arets: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

Daniel 8:21a
21. And ha-tsapiyr ha-sa`iyr melek Yavan: and the great horn that is between his eyes ha-melek ha-ri'shown.

And according to the doctrine of the Master the first one goes and associates with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and then they return to the former house of the first, which is then the eighth and of the seven, and the former "house" from whence he came is YOU. Therefore Yeshua says to all, Watch! because we are no more own when we enter into Yeshua faithfulness, (to the glory of the Father) but are now designated as "the porter" of the doors of the house while the House Master "is away in a far journey", (Mark 13:31-37). But then I suppose if one has never had the prince of the power of the air sent away into the dry-arid deserts to begin with then he or she need not worry about him returning.

 

[DennisTate]

Excellent posts Visionary. The only thing I might take exception with is the Passover, (which is a memorial offering) but that does not seem to be the point of the thread so I will refrain from stating why I believe that to be of importance. Other than that,

Daq.... what do you think of the idea put forward in some of the Dead Sea Scrolls that Judas Didymus Thomas was the identical twin brother of Rabbi Yeshua- Jesus?

If that theory is true... it surely would somehow fit with the two goats.

Thomas the Apostle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Nag Hammadi copy of the Gospel of Thomas begins: "These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded." Early Syrian traditions also relate the apostle's full name as Judas Thomas.[8] Some have seen in the Acts of Thomas (written in east Syria in the early 3rd century, or perhaps as early as the first half of the 2nd century) an identification of Saint Thomas with the apostle Judas, brother of James, better known in English as Jude. However, the first sentence of the Acts follows the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles in distinguishing the apostle Thomas and the apostle Judas son of James. Few texts identify Thomas' twin. In the Book of Thomas the Contender, part of the Nag Hammadi, it is said to be Jesus himself: "Now, since it has been said that you are my twin and true companion, examine yourself…"[9]

 

[daq]

Daq.... what do you think of the idea put forward in some of the Dead Sea Scrolls that Judas Didymus Thomas was the identical twin brother of Rabbi Yeshua- Jesus?

If that theory is true... it surely would somehow fit with the two goats.

Thomas the Apostle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1) I do not see how you can say that such an "idea" is put forth in any DSS manuscript because of dating.
2) Where is there even a suggestion that Yeshua had a physical twin brother in what is now called canon?
3) Either way you go with this would still be pure speculation and not worth your time.
4) In the following thread I also made it clear that I believe Yeshua had no sin to be "sent away" on the head of a scapegoat in the morning of Golgotha. Yet, even so, the typology of the scapegoat was indeed fulfilled in Yeshua Bar-Abbas:

Perhaps what was said above will take some time to be fully realized, not that I say one is right and one is wrong but I do not think you fully comprehend the impact of what has been stated. As for Barabbas:

Bar = Aramaic for "a son"
Bar-Abbas = "son of [the] Father"

Barabbas was most assuredly the typology of the scapegoat. A most critical text was omitted from the Textus Receptus and probably because it was deemed far too "Jewish" in its revelation. And this revelation of what was actually occurring just before the crucifixion, filling up the typology, has deep penetrating and ominous consequences for some of modern mainstream Christianity and modern theory concerning blood atonement theology, (particularly those factions teaching that "Jesus is their scapegoat").

There is at least one variant text or possibly more containing the following account from the Matthew passage concerning "Yeshua Bar-Abbas", (this can be confirmed with the Westcott Hort variants here: Matthew 27:17 Greek Text Analysis)

Matthew 27:16-17 KJV (Textus Receptus - full name of Barabbas omitted)
16. And they had then a notable prisoner, called Barabbas.
17. Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ?

Matthew 27:16-17 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented - GNT Morph Texts)
16. Eichon de tote desmion episemon legmen Iesoun Barabban.
17. Sunegmenon oun auton eipen autois ho Pilatos, "Tina thelete apoluso humin, Iesoun ton Barabban e Iesoun ton legmen Christon?

Thus from the variant texts:

Matthew 27:16-17
16. Moreover they had at that time a notable prisoner having been called YESHUA BARABBAS.
17. Wherefore, having been gathered together, Pilate says to them; Whom would ye that I should LOOSE-LET-GO unto you, YESHUA THAT IS BARABBAS or YESHUA THAT IS HAVING BEEN CALLED CHRISTOS?

Yeshua HaMashiach - Son of the Theou-God - Torah Revolutionary - Love
Yeshua Bar-Abbas - "Son of [the] Father" - Sicarii Revolutionary - Murder

 

[pshun2404]

Actually I did not say "according to what is written here" but rather "according to what is written" yet still it has everything to do with what is also written here in this thread. According to Paul every talmid who has entered into Yeshua faithfulness was formerly serving "the prince of the power of the air". If therefore you include Ephesians 2 in your theology then how can the following statement not apply to you?

Ephesians 2:1-3 KJV
1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Who is this "prince of the power of the air" that the Ephesians, (and all talmidim of Yeshua) formerly served in the above passage? Is this the same "spirit of the world" from 1Cor.2:6-14? Does Paul get this prince of the power of the air from somewhere in TaNaK or do you suppose he invents the phrase out of thin air?

Daniel 8:5
5. And as I was considering, behold, an tspiyr- ha`iziym he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not ba'arets: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

Daniel 8:21a
21. And ha-tsapiyr ha-sa`iyr melek Yavan: and the great horn that is between his eyes ha-melek ha-ri'shown.

And according to the doctrine of the Master the first one goes and associates with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and then they return to the former house of the first, which is then the eighth and of the seven, and the former "house" from whence he came is YOU. Therefore Yeshua says to all, Watch! because we are no more own when we enter into Yeshua faithfulness, (to the glory of the Father) but are now designated as "the porter" of the doors of the house while the House Master "is away in a far journey", (Mark 13:31-37). But then I suppose if one has never had the prince of the power of the air sent away into the dry-arid deserts to begin with then he or she need not worry about him returning.

Ephesians 2:1-3 speaks of who we follow (who we ultimately serve) but this is not the same as being possessed where a malevolent but non-human spirit lives IN us...many (including me) followed him of our own free will (our own spirit) preferring to be lord of our own life (Genesis 3:5) deciding what is good or evil according to self as our god, doing what is right in OUR own eyes...we do not require possession because we liked being like him.

Now apply what you have written to the two goats and their purpose...you still have not done this, just added more without the specific application I asked for...go back to Luke and make the application please, so I can respond as you requested.

As for Daniel 8:5 there are many goats in scripture (as there are man sons, many servants, many anointed ones, etc.) they may SOMETIMES be types and other times not this Daniel goat does not carry away our sins (even in type) so this does not apply to our conversation (yours is a subjective association)...

Once the Ruach ha'Kodesh takes up residence we need not fear any such thing....when they return and knock on the door He greets them and they flee...we who are IN HIM are free indeed....

In His love

Paul

 

[pshun2404]

Daq.... what do you think of the idea put forward in some of the Dead Sea Scrolls that Judas Didymus Thomas was the identical twin brother of Rabbi Yeshua- Jesus?

If that theory is true... it surely would somehow fit with the two goats.

I have read every scroll available in English translation and commentaries by the best Hebrew Scholars...I do not anywhere see the "twins theory" in the Dead Sea Scrolls...show us please...every thing from Nag Hamadi are gnostic distortions written about 2 centuries after these people died...they contrived fiction to support a school of thought against that which Yeshua and the Apostles taught.

 

[pshun2404]

In the following thread I also made it clear that I believe Yeshua had no sin to be "sent away" on the head of a scapegoat in the morning of Golgotha. Yet, even so, the typology of the scapegoat was indeed fulfilled in Yeshua Bar-Abbas

And where does it say Bar Abbas had our sins laid on his head and then was cast out of the camp? Where is it implied he would die with our sins? Bar Abbas was given unto the people, the Aza'zal was driven from the people (this is another subjecive association). Thanks

 

[visionary]

Daq.... what do you think of the idea put forward in some of the Dead Sea Scrolls that Judas Didymus Thomas was the identical twin brother of Rabbi Yeshua- Jesus?

If that theory is true... it surely would somehow fit with the two goats.

I have read every scroll available in English translation and commentaries by the best Hebrew Scholars...I do not anywhere see the "twins theory" in the Dead Sea Scrolls...show us please...every thing from Nag Hamadi are gnostic distortions written about 2 centuries after these people died...they contrived fiction to support a school of thought against that which Yeshua and the Apostles taught.

Identical twins means Mary gave birth to not only Yeshua but also "Judas??" at the same time. I would leave it as a gnostic distortion.

 

[rick357]

In the following thread I also made it clear that I believe Yeshua had no sin to be "sent away" on the head of a scapegoat in the morning of Golgotha. Yet, even so, the typology of the scapegoat was indeed fulfilled in Yeshua Bar-Abbas

And where does it say Bar Abbas had our sins laid on his head and then was cast out of the camp? Where is it implied he would die with our sins? Bar Abbas was given unto the people, the Aza'zal was driven from the people (this is another subjecive association). Thanks

Bar Abbas can not be the scape goat as his blemishes made him an unacceptable candidate...instead when they rejected life they recieved to themselves death.

Two goats was necessary because the wages of sin was paid on the alter and also taken away to show us this took two.Yeshua in one both paid wages and took sin away.
Also the goat had no sin...sin was laid on him

 

[daq]

Ephesians 2:1-3 speaks of who we follow (who we ultimately serve) but this is not the same as being possessed where a malevolent but non-human spirit lives IN us...many (including me) followed him of our own free will (our own spirit) preferring to be lord of our own life (Genesis 3:5) deciding what is good or evil according to self as our god, doing what is right in OUR own eyes...we do not require possession because we liked being like him.

Now apply what you have written to the two goats and their purpose...you still have not done this, just added more without the specific application I asked for...go back to Luke and make the application please, so I can respond as you requested.

As for Daniel 8:5 there are many goats in scripture (as there are man sons, many servants, many anointed ones, etc.) they may SOMETIMES be types and other times not this Daniel goat does not carry away our sins (even in type) so this does not apply to our conversation (yours is a subjective association)...

Once the Ruach ha'Kodesh takes up residence we need not fear any such thing....when they return and knock on the door He greets them and they flee...we who are IN HIM are free indeed....

In His love

Paul

Ruach HaKodesh is the Word. One not having the Word neither has Ruach HaKodesh. It appears you pick and choose what you want to apply to you and your theology but as for talmidim of Yeshua that is not an option. The following passage was already referenced:

Mark 13:31-37 KJV
31. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
32. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36. Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Yeshua says that YOU are the porter of the doors of the house while you say that "when they return and knock on the door He greets them and they flee" as if the Ruach HaKodesh "answers the door for you" somehow. "Sin lieth at the door, (of your house) and his desire is unto you, and thou shalt rule over him." Likewise we are no longer our own when we enter into Yeshua faithfulness:

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 KJV
19. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20. For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

The words of Messiah shall never pass away and he commands his talmidim to be ready like sons of the bridechamber with their lamps burning when a knock comes at the door in the midst of the night:

Luke 12:35-42 KJV
35. Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
36. And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37. Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38. And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39. And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41. Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42. And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

Is this parable for all as Peter asked? Is anyone exempt from these words? Is any talmid of Yeshua exempt from the Luke passage that I also already quoted? And when does the knock come? Does the knock at your door, (when the Master returns from the wedding) happen at the commencement of your walk as you appear to believe? It seems your salvation theology does not align with what is written because you have placed the day of your salvation in your past in a day of your own choosing. Does anyone get to pick and choose the day of his salvation simply by praying a sinners prayer or going forward at a highly emotional altar call? Not that those things are bad if the heart is truly repentant but no one gets to decide the day of his or her salvation.

Revelation 3:14-22 KJV
14. And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15. I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18. I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

The true sheep know his voice and the porter opens only to the Shepherd:

John 10:1-6 KJV
1. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6. This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

What therefore do you have to "watch" for if what you say is true?

1 John 2:15-19
15. Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
18. Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.
19. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

1 John 4:1
1. Beloved, believe not every spirit, but test the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Is it so hard to believe that one of those antichristos false prophet spirits went out from yourself in the commencement of your walk? The unclean spirit of the world was cast out of you when you first believe and were sealed with the Spirit Holy Testimony of Yeshua but then we are commanded to consume all of that Testimony-Word; leaving nothing till the morning come when the Daystar arises in our hearts. Therefore the same author warns just as Paul likewise does that we look to ourselves; not for anything good but to be sure that what we trust, believe, and walk out in our daily lives is in perfect alignment with all that is written and especially the Torah of our Father and the Testimony of Yeshua which he received from the Father:

2 John 1:6-11
6. And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7. For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, [the man is the house] neither salute him good tidings:
11. For he that biddeth him farewell is partaker of his evil deeds.

Perhaps the reason you cannot see the perspective put forth here is because your own "salvation theology" has already inadvertently nullified some critical statements from the Testimony of Yeshua as it applies to yourself and your walk. You appear to have nullified any true reason for yourself to watch for these things by suggesting that the Ruach HaKodesh "answers the door of your house for you" so you do not have to worry about the possibility of any "doctrines of devils" entering into your house. However, it is not the end of the world, yet.