Two Goats

[daq]

Ephesians 2:1-3 speaks of who we follow (who we ultimately serve) but this is not the same as being possessed where a malevolent but non-human spirit lives IN us...many (including me) followed him of our own free will (our own spirit) preferring to be lord of our own life (Genesis 3:5) deciding what is good or evil according to self as our god, doing what is right in OUR own eyes...we do not require possession because we liked being like him.

Now apply what you have written to the two goats and their purpose...you still have not done this, just added more without the specific application I asked for...go back to Luke and make the application please, so I can respond as you requested.

As for Daniel 8:5 there are many goats in scripture (as there are man sons, many servants, many anointed ones, etc.) they may SOMETIMES be types and other times not this Daniel goat does not carry away our sins (even in type) so this does not apply to our conversation (yours is a subjective association)...

Once the Ruach ha'Kodesh takes up residence we need not fear any such thing....when they return and knock on the door He greets them and they flee...we who are IN HIM are free indeed....

In His love

Paul

Your response calling my comments on Daniel 8:5 "subjective association" is merely your opinionated denial of the facts because apparently you paid no heed to what immediately follows the Leviticus 16 Yom Kippurim commandments:

Leviticus 17:1-7 KJV
1. And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2. Speak unto Aaron, and unto his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them; This is the thing which the Lord hath commanded, saying,
3. What man soever there be of the house of Israel, that killeth an ox, or lamb, or goat, in the camp, or that killeth it out of the camp,
4. And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the Lord before the tabernacle of the Lord; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people:
5. To the end that the children of Israel may bring their sacrifices, which they offer in the open field, even that they may bring them unto the Lord, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest, and offer them for peace offerings unto the Lord.
6. And the priest shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar of the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the Lord.
7. And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, [sa`iyrim] after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.

Your offering is unacceptable for me to partake of because it appears to me that you have not first brought it to the Man whose name is the Door, (of the Mishkan).

You might also want to check Yeshayah 34:12-17, (no one thereof shall lack its mate).

 

[pshun2404]

you still have not clarified your association between the two goats and the text you offered from Luke...you are jumping around but not connecting the dots...the Bar Abbas and Yeshua dilemma has nothing in it related to the two goats...

Tell us how you see a relationship between the Luke passage and the two goats of Yom Kippur...please...I am not trying to insult you...make this issue you have created clear.

Paul

 

[daq]

you still have not clarified your association between the two goats and the text you offered from Luke...you are jumping around but not connecting the dots...the Bar Abbas and Yeshua dilemma has nothing in it related to the two goats...

Tell us how you see a relationship between the Luke passage and the two goats of Yom Kippur...please...I am not trying to insult you...make this issue you have created clear.

Paul

Who is the one making bold emphatic statements and offering absolutely no Scripture support for his claims? Where is all of your evidence for your own opening claim from your first post in this thread? If you expect everyone to believe your claims then is it unreasonable to expect you to support your own claims with Scripture? Is everyone simply supposed to believe you because you say it is so? It seems you are arguing from a doctrinal mindset rather than what is actually written. Why need I give you anymore "proof" if you do not believe all of the Scripture that has already been posted and-or referenced? Your opening statement in this thread has no solid foundational basis from any bold, clear, emphatic statements found in Scripture but is rather a set of arguments based in doctrinal suppositions derived from a compilation of the most hotly debated texts in the body of the holy writ:

Where Messiah was fulfillment of the Law, He is both goats...the Azazel though humanly associated with evil is not the symbolic "evil one" he is the victim upon whom our sins are laid who himself was innocent of our sins...for the atonement to take place our sins must first be dealt with...placed on the sinless victim that is then killed by the wilderness of the world when the blood is then sprinkled on out behalf and applied to us the redemption/ransom is complete. These represent the two purposes of the one Messiah...

Once upon a kippur there was a priest of Elohim; a man which had not yet been revealed to his own, but was indeed being used of Elohim to work good works, healings, cures, good will, and peace toward all his brethren to the glory of Elohim. One day the priest of Elohim came into his own beloved city, and they brought to him a paralytic man, lying on a bed: and the priest of Elohim, seeing their faith, said unto the paralytic; "Teknon-child", (for he was not yet a huios-son of the kingdom) "Be of good cheer; the sins of thee be aphiemi-sent away!" But hearing this saying there were certain of the scribes present, which said within themselves, "This man blasphemes", (for only the current High Priest of the city was vested with the power and authority from on high to send away the sins of the people, and that was only once in the year at the Great Day). So the priest of Elohim, knowing their thoughts, said to them; "Wherefore think ye ponerous things in your hearts? For which is easier, to say, The sins of thee be aphiemi-sent away? or to say, Arise, and walk? But so that you may know that the Son of man has power over the earth to aphiemi-send away sins", (then says he to the paralytic) "Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto the house of you!" And the paralytic man arose, cured, and departed to the house of Elohim to give thanks; but the day wherein this occurred was a Shabbat, yet he took up his bed as the Commander of the Covenant had ordered. And as he approached nigh unto the temple the elders therefore said unto him that was cured, "It is Shabbat: it is not lawful for you to carry your bed." But the healed man answered them, saying, "He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk." Then they began to interrogate him, and said to him; "What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?" And he that was healed was unsure who it was; for the priest of Elohim had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place. But afterward the priest of Elohim found the cured man in the temple, and says to him, "Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee!"

And after two days it came to pass that there was certain sect of talmidim that heard these words of the Master-Teacher, saying, "sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee!" And they besought an answer from the Most High, by his Word, as to what this "worse thing" might concern; insomuch that they might know the signs. And the Most High sent a messenger to show unto them things to come; and the messenger brought into remembrance the words of the High Priest, which said unto the them, "If I with the Finger of Elohim cast out daimonion, no doubt the kingdom of Elohim is come upon you! When a strong armed man guards his palace, his goods are in peace: but when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he takes from him all his armor wherein he trusted, and divides his spoils. He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathers not with me scatters. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walks through dry-arid-desert places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says; I will return unto my house from whence I came out. And when he comes, he finds the house swept and put in order. Then goes he, and associates unto him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and having entered in, they dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first."

However, there were some of the talmidim which believed not this word, for they said unto themselves; "all of my sins are aphiemi-pardoned" yet those talmidim who believed this word said unto themselves, "all of my sins are aphiemi-sent away upon the head of my old man; but if they are sent away into the desert then they can return if I myself willfully continue in the sins of my old man", and so there was a division in the sect.

 

[pshun2404]

Who is the one making bold emphatic statements and offering absolutely no Scripture support for his claims? Where is all of your evidence for your own opening claim from your first post in this thread? If you expect everyone to believe your claims then is it unreasonable to expect you to support your own claims with Scripture? Is everyone simply supposed to believe you because you say it is so?

Daq, I said this was my opinion (that Yeshua fulfills both roles) and even said I could be incorrect, but you have not given me anything to show I am not...He IS our atonement sacrifice that pleases the LORD and one of His purposes (taught by the Apostles who were taught by Him) was to die for our sins...He bore our iniquities and the chastisement of our Shalom was laid on Him...(like the aza'zel)...we are under the sprinkling of His blood...

How do the spirits that possess the possessed carry our sins out of the camp? How did Barrabas do this? Which of them bore or carried our sins? Do you see what I am asking here? Can anyone else help clarify this? Anyone else have an opinion...

Does anyone else agree or disagree that Yeshua fulfills both roles?

What is the name of the translation you quoted? Just curious...

 

[daq]

Who is the one making bold emphatic statements and offering absolutely no Scripture support for his claims? Where is all of your evidence for your own opening claim from your first post in this thread? If you expect everyone to believe your claims then is it unreasonable to expect you to support your own claims with Scripture? Is everyone simply supposed to believe you because you say it is so?

Daq, I said this was my opinion (that Yeshua fulfills both roles) and even said I could be incorrect, but you have not given me anything to show I am not...He IS our atonement sacrifice that pleases the LORD and one of His purposes (taught by the Apostles who were taught by Him) was to die for our sins...He bore our iniquities and the chastisement of our Shalom was laid on Him...(like the aza'zel)...we are under the sprinkling of His blood...

How do the spirits that possess the possessed carry our sins out of the camp? How did Barrabas do this? Which of them bore or carried our sins? Do you see what I am asking here? Can anyone else help clarify this? Anyone else have an opinion...

Does anyone else agree or disagree that Yeshua fulfills both roles?

What is the name of the translation you quoted? Just curious...

Do you suppose the "Finger of God" is an ambiguous and unimportant statement that can just be ignored? The Kohen Gadol is empowered with the "Finger of God" as the soul representative invested with the power and authority from on high when he sprinkles the blood of atonement seven times with his FINGER. Surely you have read how Mariam Magdalene had seven devils cast out of her by Messiah? The sprinkling of the blood of your final atonement is performed by the Kohen Gadol, (after the order of Melkitzedek) and it will consist of the seven final strokes of the fury of the passion when your appointed time has come, (and no man knows the day or the hour, not even the messengers of heaven, but the Father only).

 

[visionary]

Rev 11;19 The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of his testament.

The ark of God’s testament is in the Holy of Holies, the second apartment of the sanctuary. In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served “unto the example and shadow of heavenly things,” this apartment was opened only upon the great Day of Atonement for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in heaven and the ark of His testament was seen points to the opening of the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary Yeshua, as our High Priest, entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement.

Those who by faith followed their great High Priest as He entered upon His ministry in the Most Holy Place beheld the ark of His testament. As they had studied the subject of the sanctuary they had come to understand the Messiah’s change of ministration, and we should be seeing how He is now officiating before the ark of God, pleading His blood in behalf of sinners.

The ark in the tabernacle on earth contained the two tables of stone, upon which were inscribed the precepts of the law of God. The ark was merely a receptacle for the tables of the law, and remember it is the presence of these divine precepts which give the ark its value and sacredness. When the temple of God was opened in heaven, the ark of His testament was seen. Within the Holy of Holies, in the sanctuary in heaven, the divine law is sacredly enshrined—the law that was spoken by God Himself amid the thunders of Sinai and written with His own finger on the tables of stone.

 

[visionary]

The law of God in the sanctuary in heaven is the great original, of which the precepts inscribed upon the tables of stone and recorded by Moses. Those who arrived at an understanding of this important point believe in the sacred, unchanging character of the divine law. We see, as never before, the force of the Saviour’s words

Matt 5:18 Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law.

 

[visionary]

The law of God, being a revelation of His will, a transcript of His character, must forever endure, Ps 89:37

It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

Not one command has been annulled; not a jot or tittle has been changed.

Ps 111:7-8 Forever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven. All his commandments are sure. They stand fast for ever and ever.

 

[visionary]

Lev 23:27 On the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord.

We are now living at a time when the fall feasts will be fulfilled and especially important is the great day of atonement. In the typical service, while the high priest was making the atonement for Israel, all were required to afflict their souls by repentance of sin and humiliation before the Lord, lest they be cut off from among the people.

In like manner, all who would have their names retained in the book of life should now, in the few remaining days of earth's history, afflict our souls before God by sorrow for sin and true repentance. There must be deep, faithful searching of heart. The light, frivolous spirit indulged by so many professed believers will not gain entrance into His Kingdom.

There is earnest warfare before all who would subdue the evil tendencies that strive for the mastery. The work of preparation is an individual work. We are not saved in groups. The purity and devotion of one will not offset the want of these qualities in another.

Though all nations are to pass in judgment before God, yet He will examine the case of each individual with as close and searching scrutiny as if there were not another being upon the earth. Everyone must be tested and found without spot or wrinkle or any such thing.

Solemn are the scenes connected with the closing work of the atonement. For many years this time has approaching. In the awful presence of God our lives are to come up in review at the time when our books of life are opened before Him to judge. It will all flash before us as in all in awesome horrendousness.

At this time above all others it is extemely important that every soul to heed the Saviour’s admonition

Mark 13:33 Watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

and John's

Rev 3:3 If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

When the Yom, Kippur are over with in heaven, the destiny of all will have been decided for life or death. I believe that once this particular Yom Kippur is over, Yeshua will come around the eighth day of the Feast of Tabernacles. Yeshua in the Revelation, looking forward to that time, declares

Rev 22:11-12 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

[visionary]

In the typical service the high priest, having made the atonement for Israel, comes out and blessed the congregation. So Yeshua, at the close of His work as our mediator in His final work of Yom Kippur services in heaven, will appear

Heb 9:28 without sin unto salvation

to bless His waiting people with eternal life.

As surely as the Lord lives and reigns, the words spoken to Nicodemus are spoken to the men who have been handling sacred responsibilities. God says to them,

Ye must be born again.

A conversion, represented by a new birth, must take place. Then the men who have worked according to their supposed wisdom, will become as little children, seeking the Lord as did the children of Israel on the day of atonement, confessing their sins, and purifying themselves from every moral defilement. When they come to the Lord with a sense of their own weakness, the Lord will hear them, and will answer,

Here am I.

The Holy Spirit will strip them of their self-righteousness, pharisaism, and hardness of heart, and will give them a heart of flesh, made soft and tender by its indwelling presence. Self will die, and the life of Yeshua will be revealed in their lives.

The life they will soon live, they will live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved them and gave himself for them.

 

[pshun2404]

Do you suppose the "Finger of God" is an ambiguous and unimportant statement that can just be ignored? The Kohen Gadol is empowered with the "Finger of God" as the soul representative invested with the power and authority from on high when he sprinkles the blood of atonement seven times with his FINGER. Surely you have read how Mariam Magdalene had seven devils cast out of her by Messiah? The sprinkling of the blood of your final atonement is performed by the Kohen Gadol, (after the order of Melkitzedek) and it will consist of the seven final strokes of the fury of the passion when your appointed time has come, (and no man knows the day or the hour, not even the messengers of heaven, but the Father only).

Of course I do not think His grace that He has bestowed on our behalf is ambiguous or unimportant...and of course I know of what transpired with Mary, and I praise the LORD daily and thank Him repeatedly for the sprinkling which has procured my atonement (nor do I profess to know the hour or day but excitedly look forward)....! May the LORD bless, Daq, and may He give you shalom...

So I have a final question that only requires a simple answer...when our sinful old man died in His crucifixion outside of the camp were our sins carried to the cross with Him? Yes or no...?

In His love

Paul

 

[pshun2404]

In the typical service the high priest, having made the atonement for Israel, comes out and blessed the congregation. So Yeshua, at the close of His work as our mediator in His final work of Yom Kippur services in heaven, will appear to bless His waiting people with eternal life.

As surely as the Lord lives and reigns, the words spoken to Nicodemus are spoken to the men who have been handling sacred responsibilities. God says to them, A conversion, represented by a new birth, must take place. Then the men who have worked according to their supposed wisdom, will become as little children, seeking the Lord as did the children of Israel on the day of atonement, confessing their sins, and purifying themselves from every moral defilement. When they come to the Lord with a sense of their own weakness, the Lord will hear them, and will answer, The Holy Spirit will strip them of their self-righteousness, pharisaism, and hardness of heart, and will give them a heart of flesh, made soft and tender by its indwelling presence. Self will die, and the life of Yeshua will be revealed in their lives.

The life they will soon live, they will live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved them and gave himself for them.

All you have expounded in these posts is most admirable Visionary...well done...may the LORD get all the praise and honor and glory now and forever, Amen...

 

[daq]

The ark of God’s testament is in the Holy of Holies, the second apartment of the sanctuary. In the ministration of the earthly tabernacle, which served “unto the example and shadow of heavenly things,” this apartment was opened only upon the great Day of Atonement for the cleansing of the sanctuary. Therefore the announcement that the temple of God was opened in heaven and the ark of His testament was seen points to the opening of the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary Yeshua, as our High Priest, entered there to perform the closing work of the atonement.

Those who by faith followed their great High Priest as He entered upon His ministry in the Most Holy Place beheld the ark of His testament. As they had studied the subject of the sanctuary they had come to understand the Messiah’s change of ministration, and we should be seeing how He is now officiating before the ark of God, pleading His blood in behalf of sinners.

The ark in the tabernacle on earth contained the two tables of stone, upon which were inscribed the precepts of the law of God. The ark was merely a receptacle for the tables of the law, and remember it is the presence of these divine precepts which give the ark its value and sacredness. When the temple of God was opened in heaven, the ark of His testament was seen. Within the Holy of Holies, in the sanctuary in heaven, the divine law is sacredly enshrined—the law that was spoken by God Himself amid the thunders of Sinai and written with His own finger on the tables of stone.

The law of God, being a revelation of His will, a transcript of His character, must forever endure, Ps 89:37 Not one command has been annulled; not a jot or tittle has been changed.

All five of your previous posts are very complimentary to what has been discussed Vis. I only wish that the Scripture passages you post were not in quotes so that they would carry over when your posts are quoted. Shabbat Shalom.

So I have a final question that only requires a simple answer...when our sinful old man died in His crucifixion outside of the camp were our sins carried to the cross with Him? Yes or no...?

In His love

Paul

It is not a simple answer because you framed your question out of context through a misinterpretation of what Paul says concerning the old man. He does say that the old man was crucified with Messiah but that occurs when we enter into Yeshua faithfulness and then the walk begins. Paul also strongly suggests that your old man is a devil and can return just as the Testimony of Yeshua reveals. Likewise we already have a commandment from Yeshua that whosoever will not take up his own stake and follow the Messiah cannot be his talmid-disciple, (Luke 14:27). The way you frame your question reveals that you perceive what Paul writes concerning the old man having been crucified as a thing which was already completely done for you in the past, similarly as to how you suggest that the Spirit Holy "answers the door of your house for you" so that you don not need to worry about being deceived. Essentially you pit single sentence statements from Paul against the Testimony of Yeshua and then proceed to choose your understanding of Paul over the Gospel as preached through Messiah in the four Gospel accounts containing the Testimony of Yeshua. I hope you come to realize one day that it is precisely because of your style of reasoning that not a few Messianics reject Paul and his writings. However, Paul does not contradict the supreme message of Yeshua but in fact if one believes the Luke passage concerning the unclean spirit which is first sent away into the dry-arid-desert places then the same cannot avoid the clear implications that this is the same "old man" that Paul speaks of, and as I said, strongly implies that the same "old man" is the diabolos:

Romans 6:3-13 The Scriptures (ISR 1998)
3. Or do you not know that as many of us as were immersed into Messiah יהושע were immersed into His death?
4. We were therefore buried with Him through immersion into death, that as Messiah was raised from the dead by the esteem of the Father, so also we should walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have come to be grown together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also of the resurrection,
6. knowing this, that our old man was impaled with Him, so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, to serve sin no longer.
7. For he who has died has been made right from sin.
8. And if we died with Messiah, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9. knowing that Messiah, having been raised from the dead, dies no more – death no longer rules over Him.
10. For in that He died, He died to sin once for all; but in that He lives, He lives to Elohim.
11. So you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to Elohim in Messiah יהושע our Master.
12. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, to obey it in its desires,
13. neither present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to Elohim as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to Elohim.

Ephesians 4:17-27 The Scriptures (ISR 1998)
17. So this I say, and witness in the Master, that you should no longer walk as the gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind,
18. having been darkened in their understanding, having been estranged from the life of Elohim, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart,
19. who, having become callous, have given themselves up to indecency, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20. But you have not so learned Messiah,
21. if indeed you have heard Him and were taught by Him, as truth is in יהושע:
22. that you put off – with regard to your former way of life – the old man, being corrupted according to the desires of the deceit,
23. and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24. and that you put on the renewed man which was created according to Elohim, in righteousness and set-apartness of the truth.
25. Therefore, having put off the false, speak truth, each one with his neighbour, for we are members of one another.
26. "Be wroth, but do not sin." Do not let the sun go down on your rage,
27. nor give place to the devil.

It is an active and ongoing process and the "old man" is a wily one that comes back from the deserts and dry-arid places with all of your sins upon his mortally wounded head; two horns like a lamb, but speaking as a dragon. Therefore we test the spirits and Watch! as commanded. Shabbat Shalom.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

All five of your previous posts are very complimentary to what has been discussed Vis. I only wish that the Scripture passages you post were not in quotes so that they would carry over when your posts are quoted. Shabbat Shalom.





It is not a simple answer because you framed your question out of context through a misinterpretation of what Paul says concerning the old man. He does say that the old man was crucified with Messiah but that occurs when we enter into Yeshua faithfulness and then the walk begins. Paul also strongly suggests that your old man is a devil and can return just as the Testimony of Yeshua reveals. Likewise we already have a commandment from Yeshua that whosoever will not take up his own stake and follow the Messiah cannot be his talmid-disciple, (Luke 14:27). The way you frame your question reveals that you perceive what Paul writes concerning the old man having been crucified as a thing which was already completely done for you in the past, similarly as to how you suggest that the Spirit Holy "answers the door of your house for you" so that you don not need to worry about being deceived. Essentially you pit single sentence statements from Paul against the Testimony of Yeshua and then proceed to choose your understanding of Paul over the Gospel as preached through Messiah in the four Gospel accounts containing the Testimony of Yeshua. I hope you come to realize one day that it is precisely because of your style of reasoning that not a few Messianics reject Paul and his writings. However, Paul does not contradict the supreme message of Yeshua but in fact if one believes the Luke passage concerning the unclean spirit which is first sent away into the dry-arid-desert places then the same cannot avoid the clear implications that this is the same "old man" that Paul speaks of, and as I said, strongly implies that the same "old man" is the diabolos:

Romans 6:3-13 The Scriptures (ISR 1998)
3. Or do you not know that as many of us as were immersed into Messiah יהושע were immersed into His death?
4. We were therefore buried with Him through immersion into death, that as Messiah was raised from the dead by the esteem of the Father, so also we should walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have come to be grown together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also of the resurrection,
6. knowing this, that our old man was impaled with Him, so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, to serve sin no longer.
7. For he who has died has been made right from sin.
8. And if we died with Messiah, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9. knowing that Messiah, having been raised from the dead, dies no more – death no longer rules over Him.
10. For in that He died, He died to sin once for all; but in that He lives, He lives to Elohim.
11. So you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to Elohim in Messiah יהושע our Master.
12. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, to obey it in its desires,
13. neither present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to Elohim as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to Elohim.

Ephesians 4:17-27 The Scriptures (ISR 1998)
17. So this I say, and witness in the Master, that you should no longer walk as the gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind,
18. having been darkened in their understanding, having been estranged from the life of Elohim, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart,
19. who, having become callous, have given themselves up to indecency, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20. But you have not so learned Messiah,
21. if indeed you have heard Him and were taught by Him, as truth is in יהושע:
22. that you put off – with regard to your former way of life – the old man, being corrupted according to the desires of the deceit,
23. and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24. and that you put on the renewed man which was created according to Elohim, in righteousness and set-apartness of the truth.
25. Therefore, having put off the false, speak truth, each one with his neighbour, for we are members of one another.
26. "Be wroth, but do not sin." Do not let the sun go down on your rage,
27. nor give place to the devil.

It is an active and ongoing process and the "old man" is a wily one that comes back from the deserts and dry-arid places with all of your sins upon his mortally wounded head; two horns like a lamb, but speaking as a dragon. Therefore we test the spirits and Watch! as commanded. Shabbat Shalom.

Good post Daq.

 

[pshun2404]

All five of your previous posts are very complimentary to what has been discussed Vis. I only wish that the Scripture passages you post were not in quotes so that they would carry over when your posts are quoted. Shabbat Shalom.


It is not a simple answer because you framed your question out of context through a misinterpretation of what Paul says concerning the old man. He does say that the old man was crucified with Messiah but that occurs when we enter into Yeshua faithfulness and then the walk begins. Paul also strongly suggests that your old man is a devil and can return just as the Testimony of Yeshua reveals. Likewise we already have a commandment from Yeshua that whosoever will not take up his own stake and follow the Messiah cannot be his talmid-disciple, (Luke 14:27). The way you frame your question reveals that you perceive what Paul writes concerning the old man having been crucified as a thing which was already completely done for you in the past, similarly as to how you suggest that the Spirit Holy "answers the door of your house for you" so that you don not need to worry about being deceived. Essentially you pit single sentence statements from Paul against the Testimony of Yeshua and then proceed to choose your understanding of Paul over the Gospel as preached through Messiah in the four Gospel accounts containing the Testimony of Yeshua. I hope you come to realize one day that it is precisely because of your style of reasoning that not a few Messianics reject Paul and his writings. However, Paul does not contradict the supreme message of Yeshua but in fact if one believes the Luke passage concerning the unclean spirit which is first sent away into the dry-arid-desert places then the same cannot avoid the clear implications that this is the same "old man" that Paul speaks of, and as I said, strongly implies that the same "old man" is the diabolos:

Romans 6:3-13 The Scriptures (ISR 1998)
3. Or do you not know that as many of us as were immersed into Messiah יהושע were immersed into His death?
4. We were therefore buried with Him through immersion into death, that as Messiah was raised from the dead by the esteem of the Father, so also we should walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have come to be grown together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also of the resurrection,
6. knowing this, that our old man was impaled with Him, so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, to serve sin no longer.
7. For he who has died has been made right from sin.
8. And if we died with Messiah, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9. knowing that Messiah, having been raised from the dead, dies no more – death no longer rules over Him.
10. For in that He died, He died to sin once for all; but in that He lives, He lives to Elohim.
11. So you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to Elohim in Messiah יהושע our Master.
12. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, to obey it in its desires,
13. neither present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to Elohim as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to Elohim.

Ephesians 4:17-27 The Scriptures (ISR 1998)
17. So this I say, and witness in the Master, that you should no longer walk as the gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind,
18. having been darkened in their understanding, having been estranged from the life of Elohim, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart,
19. who, having become callous, have given themselves up to indecency, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20. But you have not so learned Messiah,
21. if indeed you have heard Him and were taught by Him, as truth is in יהושע:
22. that you put off – with regard to your former way of life – the old man, being corrupted according to the desires of the deceit,
23. and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24. and that you put on the renewed man which was created according to Elohim, in righteousness and set-apartness of the truth.
25. Therefore, having put off the false, speak truth, each one with his neighbour, for we are members of one another.
26. "Be wroth, but do not sin." Do not let the sun go down on your rage,
27. nor give place to the devil.

It is an active and ongoing process and the "old man" is a wily one that comes back from the deserts and dry-arid places with all of your sins upon his mortally wounded head; two horns like a lamb, but speaking as a dragon. Therefore we test the spirits and Watch! as commanded. Shabbat Shalom.

Ahh! Finally....! At least now you have made your position clear....and no, I am always on guard against the Old Man....he constantly tries to assert his will over that of Yeshua's in my life...but Yeshua always wins! ut again I feel you missed the question...did He bear our sins? Many Rabbis have said so though they did not believe Jesus to be that one...

 

[rick357]

It is an active and ongoing process and the "old man" is a wily one that comes back from the deserts and dry-arid places with all of your sins upon his mortally wounded head; two horns like a lamb, but speaking as a dragon. Therefore we test the spirits and Watch! as commanded. Shabbat Shalom. [/QUOTE]

Good stuff...to further emphasize what you are saying it was said of the pharisees you are sons of your father the devil
Was he saying they were children of a fallen being...no we know they were sons of Adam as we also were born
Is there a fallen one who started all this rebellion yes...who has taught the nations how to live ,think, and be. He taught them and us lies about who God is who man is and all creation as a father reproducing himself in us.1
When we become crucified in Yeshua the devil son Adam is to be considered dead...so how do we remain alive..Holy Spirit makes us to live by living both to will and to do as we trust our entire being to Him....this is the gift (grace)
But YHWH shares his glory with no flesh...how does Paul use the word flesh...it is the power of Adam to accomplish a thing if we lean to our own understanding or ability then we have trusted once more in the dead man...Paul calls this fustrating the gift of God(grace)
How can you tell if youve done this you break the law...Holy Spirit can not transgress his own nature...Paul said if you are circumcised christ will profit you nothing...why would an observant Jew who was circumcised say this...because one can not perform the law by Adam for he is in bondage to sin...but Pauls testimony of the gentiles is that by their new nature they keep the law.
As to adam remaining in us dead but here...Paul says he sought the Lord 3 times to remove his thorn in the flesh...YHWH's answer my gift is sufficiant
Adam presant till coruption puts on incorruption drives us to full trust of God in and through us that we would fulfill the prophetic of John I must decrease that He may increase

 

[daq]

Good post Daq.

The old man and exalted of countenance, he is the head:
The prophet teaching lies, he is the tail, (Yeshayah 9:15, Revelation 12:3-4).

 

[daq]

It is an active and ongoing process and the "old man" is a wily one that comes back from the deserts and dry-arid places with all of your sins upon his mortally wounded head; two horns like a lamb, but speaking as a dragon. Therefore we test the spirits and Watch! as commanded. Shabbat Shalom.

Good stuff...to further emphasize what you are saying it was said of the pharisees you are sons of your father the devil
Was he saying they were children of a fallen being...no we know they were sons of Adam as we also were born
Is there a fallen one who started all this rebellion yes...who has taught the nations how to live ,think, and be. He taught them and us lies about who God is who man is and all creation as a father reproducing himself in us.1
When we become crucified in Yeshua the devil son Adam is to be considered dead...so how do we remain alive..Holy Spirit makes us to live by living both to will and to do as we trust our entire being to Him....this is the gift (grace)
But YHWH shares his glory with no flesh...how does Paul use the word flesh...it is the power of Adam to accomplish a thing if we lean to our own understanding or ability then we have trusted once more in the dead man...Paul calls this fustrating the gift of God(grace)
How can you tell if youve done this you break the law...Holy Spirit can not transgress his own nature...Paul said if you are circumcised christ will profit you nothing...why would an observant Jew who was circumcised say this...because one can not perform the law by Adam for he is in bondage to sin...but Pauls testimony of the gentiles is that by their new nature they keep the law.
As to adam remaining in us dead but here...Paul says he sought the Lord 3 times to remove his thorn in the flesh...YHWH's answer my gift is sufficiant
Adam presant till coruption puts on incorruption drives us to full trust of God in and through us that we would fulfill the prophetic of John I must decrease that He may increase

The Father is no respecter of the persons of men, or races, or blood lines, and therefore what Yeshua says to certain ones about "your father the Devil" likewise applies to all talmidim of Yeshua. Yeshua gave his body and blood upon the stake, (and condemned sin in the flesh) so as to confirm all of the covenants including the "new" at Golgotha. The Brit Chadashah is therefore confirmed which is the full Testimony of Yeshua which he paid for with his own blood. The war is now inside the man and his own household which is why Paul states in various places that we are to mortify the deeds of the body and to mortify our own unruly "members" which are upon our own earth, (for the man is both the adamah-soil of the heart and the erets-lands outer bounds of the temple profane-commons). This teaching likewise comes from Yeshua and those unruly members of our own households are personified as family members:

Matthew 10:34-38
34. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a machaira-sword, [sword of spiritual warfare].
35. For I am come to sever a man from his father, and the daughter from her mother, and the daughter in law from her mother in law [Devarim 13:6-11].
36. And the enemies of a man shall be they of his own household, [Micah 7:5-6].
37. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38. And he that taketh not his own stake, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

The words of Messiah are Spirit and they are Life:

1) "Your heavenly Father" vs "Your father the Devil"
2) "Your covenant mother Yerushalaim of above" vs "Your mother of harlots" (Revelation 17).
3) "Your own son of peace" (Luke 10:6) -vs- "Your own son of perdition" ("Esau have I hated")

Every man has his own typological twin sa`iyr-shaggy-goat Esau no matter his ethnos or bloodline, (he is sa`iyr-hairy or "shaggy", Gen. 27:11, Dan. 8:21, and Jer. 31:26-34 is related). The body of the man is likewise a house and there are five in one house divided, (same parable as the above but from Luke 12:51-53) and those five divided are then become ten, which are likened to "ten virgins", or like the wheat and the tares growing up together in the same "field", or like the sheep to the right and the goats separated to the left hand side for destruction. Therefore if your right eye offends you pluck him out and cast him from you; if your right hand offends you cut her off and cast her from you; if your foot is always running swiftly into mischief cut him off and cast him from you: "Sin lieth at the door; and his desire is unto you, and thou shalt rule over him." In the deeper level these things concern not DNA, or blood, or natural parents, or literal physical family members, but rather they concern the unruly "members" of your own "household" and the difference between the "father of lies" verses your heavenly Father, the "mother of harlots" verses your covenant mother Yerushalaim of above, the "wife of your bosom", (who may seem as if she is "like unto your own soul", Devarim 13:6) verses "the wife of your youth", (Malachi 2:14-15) or a firstborn "son of perdition" that is a vessel fitted into destruction verses a son of consolation-comfort, (which two sons come from the selfsame lump of clay according to Paul and YOU are that single lump of clay while the Father is the Potter). Three against two, and two against three, a war in your own heavens: soul for soul, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. And we cannot win the war without Torah the Rod of Iron as understood through the Testimony of Yeshua.

 

[Hoshiyya]

"THE GOAT FOR AZAZEL" by Bryan T. Huie (RIP) is a wonderful analysis, examination and exposition of the Yom Kippurim ritual and the ancient Jewish understanding of Azazel.

 

[rick357]

"THE GOAT FOR AZAZEL" by Bryan T. Huie (RIP) is a wonderful analysis, examination and exposition of the Yom Kippurim ritual and the ancient Jewish understanding of Azazel.

As Ive understood it the ancient Jewish understanding of Azazel was fragmented into several explanations