Trumpets Already Sounded?

[NightHawkeye]

Revelation is like the "test" at the end to see if you read the whole book. People won't get it unless they take in the Law, the Prophets, the Psalms and the New testament before reading and understanding Revelation.

That's an interesting thought - pregnant with possibilities ...

The obvious contradiction though is that many learned people of God have consistently gotten Revelation wrong throughout history. That's just the unvarnished truth.

Consider that the 144,000 are virgins to Christ. Many have interpreted that to mean uncorrupted by the established churches. Yet, Revelation does not say that. Instead it portrays them as simple tellers of truth.

14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

The only real-world example I can think of might be George Washington, at least according to legend a man of exceptional truth. There have also been claims of miracles happening around him.

According to Revelation, the 144,000 are the ones slated to become priests in the millennial kingdom, not individuals already fulfilling such functions.

Might Revelation require someone of similar ilk to the 144,000 to be understood correctly?

 

[the.Sheepdog]

Those 144,000 are Jewish virginal young men who will get saved and will preach the Gospel for a short time all over the world. They will be "sealed" and therefor will be unable to be harmed in any way.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Those 144,000 are Jewish virginal young men who will get saved and will preach the Gospel for a short time all over the world. They will be "sealed" and therefor will be unable to be harmed in any way.

Well, there's no scripture that says they will preach the gospel all over the world for a short time. Where did you get that idea?

 

[NightHawkeye]

Although I pointed out the details of the 144,000 in another thread, it may be worth repeating here.

Scriptural evidence indicates that the Bride spoken of in the New Testament is the group of 144,000, the priests of His new church. The 144,000 follow Him whithersoever He goes.

Look at the details in scripture:

Ephesians 5:
5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
...
5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

From The Second Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians:
11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Note that those in the first resurrection are to be priests in the millenial kingdom. Only after the millennial kingdom does the day of judgement come about and eternal life for all others who are found worthy, or second death for those who are not.

 

[the.Sheepdog]

You have some strange beliefs nighthawk. or some strange ways of explaining yourself.

second death for those not worthy?

 

[visionary]

Take this into consideration..

YouTube - 1/6 The Second Coming of Christ, Pastor Mark Blitz - Prophecy in the News

 

[the.Sheepdog]

all born again saved members of the church age are The Lords Bride. The 144000 are Jewish virginal men who become saved during the last 3.5 years, are sealed by God, and preach to the world for a time and then are raptured just like the witnesses and the church!

 

[NightHawkeye]

You have some strange beliefs nighthawk. or some strange ways of explaining yourself.

I just try to back my statements directly with scripture, Sheepdog. I'm well aware of my own fallibility. When I have doubts I say so. When the evidence seems solid, I say that as well.

Folks here are quite capable of forming their own conclusions, rarely shy in voicing contrary opinions and then backing those with the evidence they see.

If you think I got it wrong, then I encourage you to provide scripture which shows otherwise. Fair? I'm just forming opinions based on evidence, same as everyone else here.

If we all agreed on everything there would be little point in discussion.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

all born again saved members of the church age are The Lords Bride. The 144000 are Jewish virginal men who become saved during the last 3.5 years, are sealed by God, and preach to the world for a time and then are raptured just like the witnesses and the church!

I'm not trying to be difficult but where does it say that the 144,000 PREACH to the world for a time? I've heard people on tv suggesting that too but that is a false doctrine because no scripture says this.

In fact, it is more likely that they are the symbolic woman who is hidden and cared for by God, having been sealed and protected through the trumpets and removed to heaven at some point.

 

[NightHawkeye]

I'm not trying to be difficult but where does it say that the 144,000 PREACH to the world for a time? I've heard people on tv suggesting that too but that is a false doctrine because no scripture says this.

Excellent point, Jen!

Scripture ties the 144,000 into being priests in the millennial kingdom, but you're right there is no direct indication that they preach prior to the millennial kingdom. However, they are described as "servants" of God. Other servants of God include John, Moses and the other prophets.

Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

I also noted this verse about his servants:
10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

If anything, because they are the firstfruits, the 144,000 are taken up prior to the tribulation.
14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Back to your question, Jen:

I'm not trying to be difficult but where does it say that the 144,000 PREACH to the world for a time?

No doubt, as servants prior to being firstfruits, the 144,000 are doing God's will, the only question might be what exactly that is. If not preaching or prophesying, then what?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Excellent point, Jen!

Scripture ties the 144,000 into being priests in the millennial kingdom, but you're right there is no direct indication that they preach prior to the millennial kingdom. However, they are described as "servants" of God. Other servants of God include John, Moses and the other prophets.

Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

I also noted this verse about his servants:
10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

If anything, because they are the firstfruits, the 144,000 are taken up prior to the tribulation.
14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Back to your question, Jen:
No doubt, as servants prior to being firstfruits, the 144,000 are doing God's will, the only question might be what exactly that is. If not preaching or prophesying, then what?

It looks like they are the remnant of Israel that God chooses to protect. I was reading through Ezekiel and it said something similar.

 

[NightHawkeye]

It looks like they are the remnant of Israel that God chooses to protect. I was reading through Ezekiel and it said something similar.

That would explain who they are. As servants of God, what are they doing?

Typically, God's servants either preach or prophesy.

 

[zeke37]

Those 144,000 are Jewish virginal young men who will get saved and will preach the Gospel for a short time all over the world. They will be "sealed" and therefor will be unable to be harmed in any way.

prove it.. the 144,000 are not Jewish and are not literal virgins

You have some strange beliefs nighthawk. or some strange ways of explaining yourself.

second death for those not worthy?

the second death, is that of the soul...only God can destroy ones soul

those "not worthy" by that point are not written in the Lambs book of life
and their very souls are destroyed forever in the lake of fire...

all born again saved members of the church age are The Lords Bride.

incorrect.
The Lord's Bride is specific to the firstfruits
who are alive on earth at the time of His Coming

The 144000 are Jewish virginal men who become saved during the last 3.5 years, are sealed by God, and preach to the world for a time and then are raptured just like the witnesses and the church!

completely incorrect

the 144,000 consist of elect from 12 tribes,
only one is Judah.

the 144,000 are the physical descendants of Israel,
who, a long time ago, were seperated into two houses.
and then scattered many years ago,
into other nations and peoples and tongues

their description in prophesy can only be that of Christians
and Judah and Israel are seperate prophetic entities,
Israel will be in prophesy and then right after that a different prophesy for Judah....

remember that the 144,000 are from the whole house of Israel..
the whole stick, not just one part of it

too many Chrsitians think the 144,000 are JEWS,
when scripture is clear that they are not


so, the 144,000 are Christians, not jews
who were SEALED in Rev7 BEFORE the 4 WINDS blow the trib.
IOW, they are NOT converts..
because they were sealed before the trib began

and they are not literal virgins...as Paul explains


1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

and
in the Gospels

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

 

[zeke37]

It looks like they are the remnant of Israel that God chooses to protect. I was reading through Ezekiel and it said something similar.

you might be interested in Ezekiel44

notice how there are those that go astray
and those that were faithfull

this is Millennial


1Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut.
2Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.
3It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.
4Then brought he me the way of the north gate before the house: and I looked, and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house of the LORD: and I fell upon my face.
5And the LORD said unto me, Son of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears all that I say unto thee concerning all the ordinances of the house of the LORD, and all the laws thereof; and mark well the entering in of the house, with every going forth of the sanctuary.
6And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations,
7In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations.
8And ye have not kept the charge of mine holy things: but ye have set keepers of my charge in my sanctuary for yourselves.
9Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.
10And the Levites that are gone away far from me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.
11Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.
12Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up mine hand against them, saith the Lord GOD, and they shall bear their iniquity.
13And they shall not come near unto me, to do the office of a priest unto me, nor to come near to any of my holy things, in the most holy place: but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.
14But I will make them keepers of the charge of the house, for all the service thereof, and for all that shall be done therein.


15But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:
16They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep my charge.

17And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.
18They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causeth sweat.
19And when they go forth into the utter court, even into the utter court to the people, they shall put off their garments wherein they ministered, and lay them in the holy chambers, and they shall put on other garments; and they shall not sanctify the people with their garments.
20Neither shall they shave their heads, nor suffer their locks to grow long; they shall only poll their heads.
21Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court.
22Neither shall they take for their wives a widow, nor her that is put away: but they shall take maidens of the seed of the house of Israel, or a widow that had a priest before.
23And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
24And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.
25And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.
26And after he is cleansed, they shall reckon unto him seven days.
27And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord GOD.
28And it shall be unto them for an inheritance: I am their inheritance: and ye shall give them no possession in Israel: I am their possession.
29They shall eat the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering: and every dedicated thing in Israel shall be theirs.
30And the first of all the firstfruits of all things, and every oblation of all, of every sort of your oblations, shall be the priest's: ye shall also give unto the priest the first of your dough, that he may cause the blessing to rest in thine house.
31The priests shall not eat of any thing that is dead of itself, or torn, whether it be fowl or beast.

 

[visionary]

prove it.. the 144,000 are not Jewish and are not literal virgins


the second death, is that of the soul...only God can destroy ones soul

those "not worthy" by that point are not written in the Lambs book of life
and their very souls are destroyed forever in the lake of fire...



incorrect.
The Lord's Bride is specific to the firstfruits
who are alive on earth at the time of His Coming


completely incorrect

the 144,000 consist of elect from 12 tribes,
only one is Judah.

the 144,000 are the physical descendants of Israel,
who, a long time ago, were seperated into two houses.
and then scattered many years ago,
into other nations and peoples and tongues

their description in prophesy can only be that of Christians
and Judah and Israel are seperate prophetic entities,
Israel will be in prophesy and then right after that a different prophesy for Judah....

remember that the 144,000 are from the whole house of Israel..
the whole stick, not just one part of it

too many Chrsitians think the 144,000 are JEWS,
when scripture is clear that they are not


so, the 144,000 are Christians, not jews
who were SEALED in Rev7 BEFORE the 4 WINDS blow the trib.
IOW, they are NOT converts..
because they were sealed before the trib began

and they are not literal virgins...as Paul explains


1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

and
in the Gospels

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Anyone who demands that another man must "prove it" is not interesting in studying it for themselves to see if it is so, nor are they interested in finding out if God agrees.

 

[NightHawkeye]

Hi Jen,

My apologies for not responding earlier to your post #22. I felt our argument was becoming circular and thought the discussion might benefit from time for consideration and reflective thought.

The bowls CANNOT follow ALL the trumpets because the 7th bowl and the 7th trumpet are identical!

The bowls cannot follow the 7th trumpet itself because "it is done" - all that's left is Christ's destruction when he comes on the clouds.

I don't disagree with any of this, Jen.

7th trumpet:
Rev 11:18The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great- and for destroying those who destroy the earth."

How is this not clear?

It is clear, Jen. Again, no argument with your logic so far.

The order of the 7th seal is indeed:
Trumpets 1-6
Bowls 1-6
Trumpet 7/Bowl 7

This is where we see things differently, Jen.

Your opinion is that this is the exact order, but there is no proof supporting that notion. Viable alternative timelines have been discussed in this and other threads recently.

It is my opinion that not only do the 7th trumpet and bowl overlap (and we do agree on that!), but that additional overlaps exist between other trumpets and bowls. No evidence has been provided which excludes the possibility of additional overlap between the lower numbered trumpets and bowls.

It cannot be:
Trumpets 1-7
Bowls 1-7

Again, no argument, Jen.

 

[zeke37]

Anyone who demands that another man must "prove it" is not interesting in studying it for themselves to see if it is so, nor are they interested in finding out if God agrees.

the point is that I have already studied for myself,
and I already found out what God agrees with in this matter
and I have no questions in this particular subject.

but edifying others..that's another story.

I meant prove that the 144,000 are JEWS and are literal virgins...

if it is the case, then show it!


the bible does not say that they are, so prove it if ya can...(you can't)
study to show thyself approved.

the explanation that I gave should have cleared up any misconception that you have...

if it did not, I apologize

but the 144,000 are NOT JEWS...12,000 are.

so either prove it biblically, or don't say it as truth, but specify your speculation or opinion instead.

 

[visionary]

When you look at Revelation in the context of God's appointed calendar, you get a clear distinction..

Feast of Trumpets.. 10 days later.. Yom Kippur is the last sanctuary service... then... No man can enter the temple [Yeshua has left the bulilding and taken off His High Priest robes and is not longer between God and sinners... Judgment/Bowls of Wrath ...

 

[visionary]

the point is that I have already studied for myself,
and I already found out what God agrees with in this matter
and I have no questions in this particular subject.

but edifying others..that's another story.

I meant prove that the 144,000 are JEWS and are literal virgins...

if it is the case, then show it!


the bible does not say that they are, so prove it if ya can...(you can't)
study to show thyself approved.

the explanaition that I gave should have cleared up any misconception that you have...

if it did not, I apologize

but the 144,000 are NOT JEWS...12,000 are.

so either prove it biblically, or don't say it as truth, but specify your speculation or opinion instead.

I am not arguing with your understanding or conclusion on this matter, I am concerned with your spiritual attitude you presented with your post... in otherwords, never close the book on a subject.. God is always bring to the humble deeper details .. keep your mind open ..

 

[zeke37]

to each their own I guess....

the post was not posted to you, but to another...
you chose to post a reply to me

I did not flame anyone...or belittle anyone as you did
now, you do not know my heart or what I am interested in...
so for you to say...

Anyone who demands that another man must "prove it" is not interesting in studying it for themselves to see if it is so, nor are they interested in finding out if God agrees.

...is wrong

what a sad statement....how dare you claim what I am interseted in or not!
the entire reason for my study is to agree with God....

you don't think I study?


as for proof...that is edification...
and that is what we all should be here for...

I'd be glad if someone proved my understanding wrong, because then I'd be that much closer to truth.
So, if the 144,000 are Jews, prove it!